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Author Topic: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"  (Read 5092 times)

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Offline MotorSeven

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2012, 08:40:26 PM »
Remember, the logger is a middleman(nothing against loggers)...buys them from you then sells them to a mill which generally is another middleman because they mill it then sell it to a finish processer(kiln drying, flooring, planed boards etc) and even then they are not usually the send seller. Anyway, you are skipping a few steps by doing it yourself, so you will see much more $. Once word gets out you will sell all you have pretty quick.
Think about using some of those first trees to build a mill shed and a place to store lumber in the dry...comes in real handy.
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Offline Okrafarmer

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2012, 10:16:00 PM »
$800? Did you mill 800 bf from two logs? Nice logs!  8)
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Offline WDH

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2012, 10:17:56 PM »
The wholesale (stumpage) market for trees is way lower than the retail value of the lumber, especially more so with hardwood than with pine.  I can sell a good red oak log that weighs one ton as stumpage for about $25 - $30 in my area.  I can saw that log into boards, spend 9 months drying them, put them in the shed, and sell them a few boards at a time over the next year to local woodworkers for $250. 

That is way better if you have the time, the space, and the equipment.  If you had one acre of them or only a few of them like you do, that sawing and selling the lumber is a good strategy.  If you had 200 acres and thousands of them, It could take you several lifetimes to come even close to utilizing them. 

I agree that you would be better to mill them yourself in your situation.
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 05:42:13 AM »
Let's be fair about prices.  Those trees aren't high quality trees from a market standpoint.  If you have veneer quality red oak, you'll be getting $1.50/bf in the log.  No sawing, no drying, no waiting for a market.  White oak can be higher, and walnut much higher.  Top end on some logs (walnut or cherry) is about $8/bf in really good markets. 

I've bought timber and I've sold timber.  50 trees really isn't enough to whet anybody's appetite for the trees, unless they are high quality.  The buyer went through the hassle of looking at the timber, then gave you a figure that didn't hurt his pocketbook.  He wasn't really interested, in my opinion.

Your $1/bf reflects a marketplace that you could fill, and all your capital and labor inputs.  You can't discount them to $0 when making a comparison.  There has to be worth to your labor and investment.  Same goes for the logger.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 06:03:12 AM »
Like Ron suggested there is nothing "free" in processing those standing trees into salable lumber even if you own them in your back yard. It might seem free, because the government isn't taxing your labour. But they are taxing the gas, the sale of the saws the parts you busted in working those logs etc, depreciation on everything involved. ;D Let's say you busted a major part that costs $1500 bucks, you better sell some lumber. ;)

You'll probably get a few clears assuming you have some clear faces in the logs, but there will be lots of low grade to when you have open grown trees.
Move'n on.

Offline Okrafarmer

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2012, 08:52:46 AM »
Those may not be the best trees, but there are a lot of clear boards in the lower logs. I saw a lot of "junk" logs and it is amazing the good lumber you can get out of trees like those. Sounds like his primary market doesn't need premium lumber anyway. If he were to keep his best firsts and seconds and airdry them carefully, he could sell them for much more than $1 / bf. Even FAS allows for some minor defects. there are a lot of things that a guy with a little mill can do that wouldn't be worth while for a production mill with lots of overhead.

It is true you do have to consider your time and your expenses when milling this lumber-- if you mill 800 bf and sell it for $800, you have not made $800 profit. But if you work efficiently and keep your costs down, you can certainly make a profit of more than 50%. Depending on your harvesting, moving, and milling capabilities.
No matter how conventional wisdom may fly in the face of radical thought, it's still the most popular type.

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Offline cutterboy

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2012, 07:36:27 PM »
123maxbars, you already have a mill and  already have a chainsaw and other equiptment so your cost will be small to make lumber out of those trees. Of course it will cost a lot of your time.

Online stavebuyer

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2012, 07:44:05 AM »
The price offered was probably more than they were actually worth to the man whose time was wasted to come out and "appraise" trees that weren't even seriously being offerred for sale. The trees have little value to a commercial logger. Anyone not already working a job next door would loose a days production and incur several hundred dollars in trucking costs to move and set up to cut 25 trees. The time and expense of moving to and from the job together with the lost production time would very likely exceed the total fair market wholesale value of the logs delivered.

Offline paul case

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2012, 09:08:23 AM »
Hey Max,
Nice score on buying the wooded lot.
I think you would be ahead to cut them and mill them yourself as it seems to have proven out with the first tree you milled and sold. A few knots doesnt hurt barn lumber and most of those limbs look to be on the small side so those knots wont effect the boards too much. Keep your blade sharp and slow down some going through those knots. It should yeild you some nice lumber.
My grandpa hand cleared his place(now my place) for fire wood and left the bigger nicer oak trees and hickory trees with the thinking, if I ever needed it those would be like money in the bank. They never needed it and now many are dying of old age and are in the 36'' to 48'' at the butt and 30'' to 36'' at 10' range. No one will buy them now because they are too big. I dont like to saw them because they are real heavy and I almost need to split them to be able to saw them. There must be about 75 to 100 of them on about 60 acres. Your trees are just the size I like to saw and they cut out real well.
The logger you talked to may have offered you a fair price given the current situation. In my area anyway there isn't much of a grade market. Those logs would have a fair amount of FAS and 1 com boards in them but with no market they are ties and pallet lumber logs that pays about $.20 bdft doyle for the logs. This is the reason I have a sawmill. I have cut a lot of my timber that is only worththat $.20 and sold the lumber for $.60 and $.80.  PC
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Offline Okrafarmer

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2012, 12:35:58 AM »
Those logs would have a fair amount of FAS and 1 com boards in them

Glad I'm not the only one who thought so. Yes, they are not ideal logs, but they sure are better than a lot of logs I see. I think there should be a goodly bit of FAS, which might be wasted on barn lumber if you can find a higher market for it. The common lumber and maybe 1-Face should get you the barn lumber price, I reckon. Around here, a lot of people throw their 1-face (F1F) in with their FAS for some reason. You could throw it either way, toward the barn lumber if it makes sense to do so, or in with the FAS premium lumber if you develop a good market for it.
No matter how conventional wisdom may fly in the face of radical thought, it's still the most popular type.

Reduced to Uber Driver and a broken MS290 Stihl

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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2012, 07:13:42 AM »
I'm not seeing "a fair amount of FAS and 1 Com" in those trees.  But, that's just me.  Barn lumber is probably the best alternative for a good deal of the wood.

FAS and F1F are usually put together, since the uses are the same.  In the wholesale end, they usually get made into moldings.  They need the long cutting lengths to get the moldings.  The commons are cut into shorter lengths and made into panels that then go into furniture.  Real short cuttings often go into strip flooring. 

Grading is done by the % of clear cuttings and is based on the size of cutting.  If you're cuttings don't make a 4"x6' or 3"x7', they can't go towards the FAS grade.  It drops down to the 1 Com grade, no matter what the % of clear cuttings you get.  A board with a 2 Com back is a 2 Com, no matter how clear the front. 
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Offline WDH

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2012, 07:28:26 AM »
Given how those trees grew, you can maximize your grade by keeping the butt log on the short side, say 8 feet or max 10 feet.  For wood workers, 8 foot grade oak boards is not a problem.  For trim or moulding, that is too short, so the length of the butt (best) log should be a function of the intended use.  Try to stay out of the first big limbs in the butt log.
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Offline paul case

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2012, 09:52:56 AM »
I based my opinion of those logs on the fact they look smaller than 24''dbh in the pic. If they are 24'' dbh and you cut 8' or 10' logs the butt log might only have 1 limb, meaning 3 clear sides. 3 clear sides and 20'' was the requirement for grade logs when I was selling logs to a neighbor mill. I have found that to work real well for me too.
I don't know about the grade market in Kentucky or SC but here in OK and SWMO there isn't one. If you can sell that lumber anywhere you are doing good. I have filled orders for trailer flooring and barn lumber with boards that would have been FAS or 1COMM and made better than trying to sell them to a market. I get $.60 for nominal sizes and for full 2'' or thicker I get $.80. PC
life is too short to be too serious. (some idiot)
2013 LT40SHE25 and Riehl edger,  WM 94 LT40 hd E15. Cut my sawing ''teeth'' on an EZ Boardwalk
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Don't get phylosophical with me. you will loose me for sure.
pc

Offline Okrafarmer

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2012, 03:38:41 PM »
I was basing it on the very small number of limbs showing, and the nice straight trunks. All your FAS and F1F would probably come out of the butt log, and then it would be common lumber for the upper logs.

I was previously getting upset that I was getting so few good boards out of my logs, until I actually read the grading rules and realized that a very high percentage of my boards would grade F1F or FAS. I was setting my sights too high. I was not allowing for any wane whatsoever, for instance. The rules allow for a certain amount of wane.

Some people do want FAS only and not F1F. Sometimes the application may be the same, but FAS is going to be stronger than F1F, typically, and it is also best for applications where you want a defect-free appearance on both sides of the wood. F1F is good for things where the defects will not show on one side. Of course if you don't care whether the defects show or not, you can use common lumber or F1F or whatever.
No matter how conventional wisdom may fly in the face of radical thought, it's still the most popular type.

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Offline MHineman

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Re: New Land Purchase with lots of Red oak, advice needed. "UPDATED"
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2012, 12:53:42 AM »
  I agree that those look like pasture trees.  Generally trees that had livestock around them even when it been over 40 years without livestock have problems in the butt logs on a lot of the trees.  You need some experience to see it, but I can generally tell you how long ago the livestock was removed and if it was cattle, hogs, or sheep from just looking at the base of the trees and the species found.
  The logger discounted the value to reduce his risk.  From the pics and your descriptions of sizes, I'd guess a standing value of $1k to $3k is about right.
  You will be able to make better use of the logs, even with issues than the big mills can.
  I do the same thing.  I sell the big logs to big mills and saw the smaller logs myself and market them retail.
  A small logger like myself would likely be more interested a woodlot like yours.  I generally limit myself to timber sales of less than 20,000 bd-ft.  These small sales don't catch much interest of the bigger loggers due to their overhead just moving equipment.
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