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Author Topic: The Spotted Owl Again  (Read 5561 times)

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Offline Gary_C

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The Spotted Owl Again
« on: February 29, 2012, 11:48:52 AM »
Obama plan for spotted owl targets rival bird

To save the imperiled spotted owl, the Obama administration is moving forward with a controversial plan to shoot barred owls, a rival bird that has shoved its smaller cousin aside.

A plan announced Tuesday would designate habitat considered critical for the bird's survival, while allowing logging to reduce the risk of catastrophic wildfire and to create jobs. Habitat loss and competition from barred owls are the biggest threats to the spotted owl.
 
Interior Secretary Ken Salazar called the draft plan "a science-based approach to forestry that restores the health of our lands and wildlife and supports jobs and revenue for local communities."

By removing selected barred owls and better managing forests, officials can give communities, foresters and land managers in three states important tools to promote healthier and more productive forests, Salazar said.


Is this called "gunboat" science?  air_plane
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Offline DGK

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2012, 12:37:05 PM »
Sorry to say that I have lost all hope for any government to make the right decisions. It appears to me that government is completely disconnected from reality.
Doug
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Offline mad murdock

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2012, 01:13:52 PM »
It seems that those who were really in the know
In the 80's were right-the spotted owls were being bred out of existence by intermingling with the barred owl. The truth will come out in the end I guess. Too bad thousands upon thousands of jobs in the PNW had to be done away by their jaded science.
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Offline terry f

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2012, 01:54:53 PM »
      I like seeing owls but they all look the same to me, and I don't care what kind they are, but could someone explain why closeing some federal land to logging is a bad thing. Demand sets the production from the mills, the mills set the price where they can make a profit. The demand seems to be met by private landowners and timber companys, if you throw federal timber into it, won't it lower the price even more. It's not too far above the the cost to get it to the mill now, and there isn't much left for the landowner, whether he's private or federal.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2012, 02:00:01 PM »
"Interior Secretary Ken Salazar called the draft plan "a science-based approach to forestry that restores the health of our lands and wildlife and supports jobs and revenue for local communities.""

Hey Ken, is that why there is not one mill still in operation in NE Oregon? Spotted owl, NAFTA = Brilliant!

Offline Jeff

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 02:06:46 PM »
Great, I suppose they are going to come along and make me replace the barred Owl on the Forestry Forum's front page slideshow with a spotted owl.
http://www.forestryforum.com/data1/images/dsc03123.jpg

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Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #6 on: February 29, 2012, 02:19:49 PM »
Hey Ken, is that why there is not one mill still in operation in NE Oregon? Spotted owl, NAFTA = Brilliant!
  ????
Spotted Owls are not native to NE Oregon, so were never a direct issue there.  Unless something I'm not aware of happened in the last month, there are at least 3 sawmills, a plywood plant, and a particleboard plant still operating in NE Oregon.

Offline Gary_C

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #7 on: February 29, 2012, 02:20:38 PM »
Or you might find a large bullet hole in your logo.  ::)
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Offline Gary_C

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #8 on: February 29, 2012, 02:29:04 PM »
      I like seeing owls but they all look the same to me, and I don't care what kind they are, but could someone explain why closeing some federal land to logging is a bad thing.

It is a bad thing to NOT properly manage our natural resources and allow them to fall into unhealthy conditions. You cannot create healthy or the desired "old growth" forests with a hands off approach.

It has little to do with supply and demand of forest products though a hands off approach will certainly have a negative effect on supply and the health of the logging and sawmill businesses.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #9 on: February 29, 2012, 03:59:58 PM »
"Spotted Owls are not native to NE Oregon, so were never a direct issue there.  Unless something I'm not aware of happened in the last month, there are at least 3 sawmills, a plywood plant, and a particleboard plant still operating in NE Oregon."

The timber sale pressure in NE Oregon was tremendous during the spotted owl era. Mill's starting buying anything and everything they could locate. The pressure from Western Oregon flowed through to Eastern about 6 month's after the owl announcement. I know, I'm from a 3rd generation logging, milling, lumber yard family there.

Yes, Boise Cascade re-opened a partial shift in the Lagrande sawmill plant last fall. BC has been shipping there saw log's to Idaho for year's though from the area. I was speaking to saw mill's not ply wood or partical board plant's though. Rogue, Round Valley lumber, Peacock, Idaho Timber, Kinzua, John Day Lumber, Wallowa Miller's, Union Lumber, all have closed over the year's. Boise Cascade left Lagrande mill closed long enough to break the Union's grip from what I understand, some of the area's better paying job's. All the logger's have taken huge hit's, Haefer Logging for example, one of the area's largest and oldest firm's closed in the early 90's due to timber pressure and pricing compression's. I know Irv Haefer, I cut line log's for him for year's.

The spotted owl debacle in fact had significant impact's on the East side as well.   

Online Ianab

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #10 on: February 29, 2012, 05:06:05 PM »
Quote
I like seeing owls but they all look the same to me, and I don't care what kind they are, but could someone explain why closeing some federal land to logging is a bad thing.

It's usually a matter of unintended consequences.

Like stopping logging in certain areas has changed the dynamic of the forest to a pre-human situation, where it grows, matures, over-matures, then burns, in a spectacular and uncontrolled way. This is probably the "Natural" way of things, and the trees naturally regenerate after the fire, and the cycle starts again. Rinse and repeat.

Not so good if you happen to live in that area and your house and business got destroyed in the process.

Not sure if this is an issue in the area being talked about, but I know it is in many other other places.

Also an unintended consequence if I remember right is that the Owls in question don't actually like living in a mature forest. Once the canopy closes all the undergrowth dies off, and that's where the owls natural prey lives. Not in the open but dark under-story of an old growth forest. They prefer a younger regenerating forest, with the shrubs and wildlife that supports.

So a possible consequence of 'hands off" management is that all the owls move out, to recently logged and regenerating areas nearby, then the whole mess goes up in flames anyway.  :-\

Now our native forest is generally managed in a "hands off" approach for conservation, but it's a very different place to the average Nth American forest, and fire is not a normal occurrence in a damp rainforest. So it will reach a steady climax state where old trees die, fall over and regenerate singly or in small groups. So it remains in a steady, but dynamic state. Not a mature, burn off, start again cycle.

So a bit of careful management and logging can make for a better environment, both for the people AND the animals in the forest.

Ian
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Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2012, 06:42:40 PM »
Ian;

In NE Oregon there is elk habitat facility called the Starkey Experimental Range. It is a fenced in range ground's to study elk habit's etc. I delivered the post's and fencing for my brother's lumber yard there when I was in High School. In the 90's they conducted a selective cut logging operation within the habitat to see how elk would act in the area.

Big surprise,  :o the elk moved into the select cut area's basically over night. The next spring when the grass was coming up within the freshly logged area's, the elk basically stayed close most of the year. I had a child hood friend who worked there who kept us informed. I guess log cutter's who walk down into there strip's each morning that run elk off eating the moss off red fir's where pretty spot on before million's of tax payer funding was spent on the study lol:D

Sorry to get off topic, just wanted to share another brilliant land mark idea they performed on the area.  :P ::)

I grew up around all the issue's in Oregon and still have mega heart burn over how the sawmill, logging industries where treated but I will be good now that I have vented.  :D :-\ :-X     

Offline sawguy21

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2012, 10:53:00 PM »
BC has been shipping there saw log's to Idaho for year's though from the area.   
We are not happy with this either. Keeps some loggers working but it's tough watching the loads drive by under producing or idle mills. No winners here.
This whole spotted owl thing is a cruel joke. It has nothing to do with protecting the bird's habitat and everything to do with shutting down logging to preserve aesthetics. The owl is just a poster boy for a larger agenda. Don't get me going on the Great Spirit Bear here on the coast. >:(
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2012, 04:37:51 AM »
Sawguy21,
The BC Silver_ eagle was referring to is Boise Cascade NOT British Columbia. He is also incorrect. While the company did occasionally ship a few logs to Idaho, after shutting down their mill in Horseshoe Bend Idaho 10 or 12 years ago, they shipped far more logs from Idaho to Northeast Oregon than ever went the opposite direction.

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2012, 05:15:00 AM »
Silver_eagle,
I will not disagree that the Spotted Owl debacle had significant indirect impact on the timber industry in Northeast Oregon. Its primary impact was however to sharply drive up stumpage prices in the area. This was as much a boon to private timberland owners as it was a hit on sawmills and loggers.
My statement that it had no direct impact on timber supply in Northeast Oregon holds true. Its impact was on demand.  The drastic reductions in timber sale offerings by the Eastside National Forests came a few years after the Westside reductions caused by the Spotted Owl rulings, and were caused by other environmentalism issues.
I was mainly countering your statement that there were no operating sawmills remaining in Northeast Oregon. In addition to the plywood plant in Elgin and the particle board plant in Island City, there are operating sawmills in La Grande, Pilot Rock, Prairie City, Elgin, and John Day. Yes it is a tragedy that so many mills have shut down in that area, but many of those you named went under long before the Spotted Owl ever became an issue.
BTW, I knew Irv Hafer quite well and worked with him quite closely over the 26 years that I was a forester for Boise Cascade. Although , I'm sure that the hard times in the timber industry strongly influenced his decision to quit logging, I'm also sure that his age and the impact of his divorce were at least equal factors in that decision.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2012, 10:35:42 AM »
Baldbob;

I don't really want to discuss Irv's personal life here but just for a note, I am the one who put Irv on the 4 wheeler he rode through the parade when he was voted Grand Marshall in the Lagrande. My family also sold and delivered most of the lumber to his retreat in Troy area once he retired.

I grew up in the grande ronde valley, 3rd and 4th generation in the industry not the coast of Washington State. Something to be said for boot's on the ground they say.

Between the spotted owl and NAFTA it crippled the local area economies and those are the fact's.

Offline terry f

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2012, 10:41:16 AM »
      Bob don't forget about Pendleton, and they just built one in Boardman, but thats another story. When you worked for Boise was there ever a shortage of raw logs comeing in, or was it a weak demand for the finished product  that hurt the mills? I think alot of the mill closeings on the eastside was because it cost too much to retool the mills to saw smaller logs.

Offline Mike_M

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2012, 11:57:45 AM »
 It's a crying shame that our schools and local goverment are in such shambles suffering from huge and continuous budget cuts. While this great renewable resource called timber just goes to waste on state and federal lands. The whacko tree huggers won't be happy until it's all locked up. If it't not the spotted owl, it's the marbled merlet, or other critter they can use as an excuse. We the foresters, loggers, and land owners are the true stewards of the forest. We take great pride to nurture this timberland we live, hunt, fish, and recreate in. It gives me a great sense of pride to see others share the same thoughts as I do.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 12:50:54 PM »
Hello Mike;

Your post is so spot on in my humble opinion.

Your area over by Noti, I used to know some logger's from that area, Macdougal Brother's logging, my uncle in Island City at Eagle sky car sold them a few carriages over the year's. They had a sub contract logger who logged a sale right beside us in Halfway Oregon in the 90's, we where all shipping the pine to Kinzua out of Heppner before they shut down. Really good guy's, I really miss those day's. 

Offline Mike_M

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2012, 02:23:02 PM »
Silver Eagle,  It sure is a small world. We run a Eaglet carriage on our yarder and love it. Great group of people who run Eagle, they are always friendly and able to answer questions. I have faith that people like us will prevail and help educate others on proper forest management. I don't post alot on the Forum, but I visit often just to get a good moral boost and to see that others think like I do.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2012, 02:46:09 PM »
Mike;

Wow, your right, sure is a small world. You have probably spoke to Sam over at eagle, he is my cousin, Scotty's son. Monte might still be over at eagle, he was the yarder operator for Hafer logging GT3 machine, when Hafer shut down, he went to work there service machines but don't know if Monte is still there.

They are very very sharp when it comes to carriages. I have hooked alot of log's under a eagle sky car, they are a proven work horse for sure. Also saves having your nose in the dirt pulling line clear from the yarder lol.

I thank you for your post here today, sure bring's back alot of good memories at home.

 

Offline Mike_M

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2012, 04:43:14 PM »
Silver Eagle,
                  You are never going to beleive this, but Monte was just up on our job site not more than 1 hour ago fixing our carriage. We had a small issue with the spitter wheel and when I called yesterday, I talked with Sam he said no problem that Monte was in the area and would swing in today. Now that is service. I had just introduced myself to Sam and Monte last week at the Oregon Logging Conference. Top Notch people. Take care.

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2012, 02:26:26 AM »
terry f,
You're right, I did forget about the Boardman mill. That's probably because it will only be milling the irrigated plantation poplar that is growing on former sagebrush land, and thus is not a direct target of the anti logging crowd. Most of the surviving mills in NEO re-tooled to handle smaller logs many years ago. The restrictions on timber sales never actually prevented BCC from getting logs. It did however make the costs of that timber often prohibitive, especially in a down lumber market. We were always able to get enough logs to keep the mills running, but sometimes their cost made it imprudent to keep running if lumber prices were too low.  Once we even brought logs in by rail from Utah when we couldn't get enough logs locally, while lumber prices were high enough to justify the cost.

Silver eagle,
I only moved to my present location 2 1/2 years ago after working for over 30 years in NEO (Baker City, La Grande, & Elgin). I did not really want to leave La Grande, but needed to get to a facility to best care for my wife's major health issues. How long have you been in Texas instead of NEO?

Offline terry f

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2012, 03:27:01 AM »
     Bob, when the owl hit ,was it only old growth or was it all federal forest on the west side. I know it was a big deal here, but how would it affect anyone from Bend Oregon, to Maine. If you are in Utah, what changes were there? Or do all local markets have their own challenges.       Boardman might have two mills. They have one for the poplar plantation, and I think the Port of Morrow might have one.

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2012, 03:15:31 PM »
Terry,
When a significant share of the total timber that was previously available for harvest is withdrawn, the effect is like throwing a rock in a pond - the biggest impact is right where the rock went in, but the ripple effect spreads far & wide.
The calculation of how annual allowable cut is calculated is too complex to cover in a post to this forum.  But in simple terms anytime timberland is withdrawn from production ( whether that land is in young growth or old growth) the total amount of timber overall that can be harvested annually on a sustainable basis must be reduced.

The operation at the port of Morrow is a chipping facility that takes cull logs & turns them into pulp chips.

Online Ron Scott

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2012, 04:14:50 PM »
Wildlife Officials Weigh an Ethical Dilemma: Killing Barred Owls to Benefit Spotted Owls

The Oregonian (February 28) - Federal wildlife officials in charge of protecting the northern spotted owl will release today a long-awaited environmental impact statement that lays out alternatives for killing barred owls, a larger, more aggressive, and more adaptive species that has displaced spotted owls through much of their range in Oregon, Washington, and northern California.

Officials acknowledge the ethical dilemma of killing one species to benefit another. However, they point to an ongoing experiment on private land in northern California that has shown spotted owls returned to historic territories in every instance where barred owls were removed.

The E-Forester
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Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2012, 11:24:21 PM »
Mike;

It sure is a small world, my father was a timber faller for the sidewinder on Hafer's crew. That is the line machine Monte ran forever. Dad cut for the GT3 machine also all threw my high school year's. I cut for the sidewinder with Dad over there in the early 90's, great job except when we where 4,000 feet in some deep dark hole, the walk out at night's where never fun lol. Brian, the hook tender over on the sidewinder went to work for Rogue Timber out of wallowa Or. after Hafer shut down, he is about 6'8" tall and could pack 4 roll's of hay wire at a time lol. He is a monster but a great guy. Ask Monte about Brian next time you see him, they worked together forever. A great bunch of true men for sure. What a small world indeed. Monte not only know's the mechanic's of a carrige, he is a great yarder engineer.

Bob;

I have been in Texas since 03' full time. We moved here building road's and pipeline work after finishing our contract on the ORCAL water duct pipeline. I hated to leave home in the later 90's but all the slow down's forced us younger generation out pretty much. Still a mega knot in my stomach over it but most of us my age group had to leave to work or stay and starve. Texas has been extremely good to my family but I sure miss the mountain's. Alot of Timber here in East Texas, good cattle pasture, fishing, people, school's, football, sport's etc. but hard to replace the mountain's, hunting, snowmobiling, friend's, culture at home.   

Bob, did you know Vince or Bob from the Lagrande BC yard or Ed with Kinzua? 

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2012, 02:02:42 AM »
Bob, did you know Vince or Bob from the Lagrande BC yard or Ed with Kinzua?

I worked very closely with Vince for about 30 years. We retired at the same time when the company offered all of us old farts an attractive early retirement package - he as Logging Superintendent and me as Chief Forester. I knew all of the people in the La Grande yard, at least 2 of whom were named Bob, so I'm not sure which one you are referring to. I do remember an Ed from Kinzua, but I'll be darned if I can remember his last name. I may well have met you as I was on Hafer's jobs on numerous occasions - early in my career when I was a logging supervisor, and then later whenever he was working on company land.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2012, 07:43:57 PM »
Bob;

Ed Tarnisky was the resource manager for Kinzua is who I was speaking of above. I logged for him before they shut down. He was a great guy to work for. Bob Barton was the timber buyer for BC I was speaking of, he bought a few sales we had over balm creek behind medical spring's area out of Union. We did the cutting, loading and hauling on some job's for carson helicopter's and he was on those job's also. I rode snowmobiles with Vince's son and worked on his snowmobiles in the winter sometimes. Also rode sled's with Randy Botham who logged for you guy's forever as you know. I didn't know alot of the BC guy's when I cut for Hafer, I was by far his youngest log cutter on the line machine sides, we where also alway's off in some hole cutting and usually didn't see to many guy's either than a few forest service guy's once in awhile awhile down there, John Sumoniac was one I recall.  Brian the hook tendor usually alway's took care of the pre job's for our side but I bet you know my Dad though, Larry Cadwell. Probably know my brother Mace who own's Bronson lumber and Royal Rock. I met most of the buyer's and logging guy's once I stopped cutting log's and started my own logging/road building Co. Mark  Larson for Rogue over in Wallowa was there Resource manager when I was at home. He was a great guy to work for and sell log's to. We did the job right behind there mill when Carson helicopter's flew those log's right into the pasture right behind there log yard there at Rogue in Wallowa. That was a fun job. There where 5 sales all together but the one right behind there log yard was awesome, lot of good wood and right on top of there log yard, we buried the scaler's in about an hour the first morning ;D. Remember that wood bridge that went across the minam river right before you get into Wallowa? We hauled hundred's of load's over that scary old thing on that job. Thank God I was the loader man there  :D and not in a truck.   

We did some work with Jack Baremore logging also, I went to High School with his youngest daughter. That was the hardest working man I have ever met, he would live on his log loader. I don't know how he did it. Hardly ever slept. We alway's thought he was a grouchy ol fart in school but once I got the green out from behind my ear's in the wood's, he was one man that I totally respected. He taught me alot about moving alot of wood with little equipment fast. Jack was a prince of a man. The first piece of land and timber I bought on my own right after I left cutting for Hafer's sidewinder line machine, I cut it and Jack loaded and hauled it. He bet me a pepsi when he showed up with the loader and skidder that he would have me caught by the end of the week if I didn't get another cutter to come help me. I said your on and no way you will ever catch me. I was young could hold my own at that time with the fast log cutter's, beside's it was flat ground and not some cliff wall like we always' got on the sidewinder. Pepsi in the bag was what I thought, well I was burning close to 3 gallon's of gas a day through hopped up 288 at the time and let me tell you, when I finished that small sale, Jack's skidder operator, Greg which was a senior in high school when I was a freshman, was right on my rear lol. I limbed to the landing that night. He laughed his tail off at me and we sat on the log deck and B.S for awhile  :-\. I didn't bet him ever again  :D I still to this day don't know if he knew how bad I was hurting after cutting 14 day's straight like a long haired wild man  ;D. I didn't even stop at pondosa store that night on the way in to get a drink  :D     

This thread sure has brought back alot of great memories. I really miss those day's. Will alway's be the best memories of my life I'm sure. I loved logging, the people and the mountain's. Almost bring's a tear to my eyes.   

I'm Tony by the way.

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2012, 01:21:25 AM »
Tony,
Yes lots of great memories. I really miss La Grande. The only man I ever saw who could outdo Jack Barremore on a loader was Jerry Clark. That man would have a cigarette in one hand, a cup of coffee in the other, and still load a truck faster than any other operator I ever saw. Yes I knew your father though not well. Same for Ed Tarnisky. I can't say that I can place Bob Barton (though my memory is no longer the greatest) but we did have a log buyer named Ed Barton (He died less than a year ago). BTW that bridge was across the Wallowa not the Minam. We had a wooden bridge across the Minam ( taken out by a flood in the late 90's), but it was surrounded by BCC land & wouldn't have served any other properties.

Offline terry f

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2012, 02:24:23 AM »
      Bob, it is a small world. I doubt we know any of the same people, but if you did any of the cuts on horseshoe ridge near meacham, you probably walked my fence line.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2012, 07:47:44 AM »
Bob;

Ed Barton, that was the name. For some reason I was thinking Bob. And yes the bridge was the Wallowa, it was the one just before you break out of the canyon before you get to the town of Wallowa going over the minam grade. Didn't the Wallowa river connect with the minam river at the bottom of the grade? Your memory is better than mine  ;D. If recall correctly, Dad and his cutting partner Mike cut a job for Hafer's GT3 line machine and the log's came over the bridge your speaking about. It might have been a winter cat job, that was back when I was in high school and I remember dad talking about it when we where logging that job for Carson Helicopter's on the Rogue timber. +

I think Jerry was driving truck when I got out of high school, I helped Dick Clark on a job one winter after we got snowed out cutting for Bob Zacharias. I ran into him in Joseph at a store the day me and my log cutting partner finished that job, he had a tree length cat ground job going over on tolgate and needed help in his landing bad. We went and helped him finish that job. If I recall, Jerry was driving truck but that has been a long time ago  :D.  Yes, Jack was very good on a loader, he always had small older machines also. I still to this day don't know how he could load so fast and smooth. Load a load of junk lodge pole faster than most guys' could load a good load of saw log's  :D, including me  :D. I finally got a track mount 4300 link belt and then could compare to him but not apples to apples at all. Although all that loading sure made it easy to switch to track hoe's later on  ;D. I might give Jack a run for his money today on a track hoe but I would never bet him a pepsi again  :D. When we went home for graduation last spring, my brother told me Jack had passed on as well. I hadn't seen Jack for probably 8 year's prior.

When I call Dad this afternoon, I'm going to share with him the conversation within this thread. He still lives in Island City. He will enjoy the memories as well.

Have a great day. 

     

Offline Mike_M

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2012, 01:26:16 PM »
Tony,
         I will ask Monte when I talk to him again. I don't know how many Sidewinder yarders they made, but one of the local equipment dealers had one for sale not long ago. Looks like a pretty nice yarder.

Ron,
       That exact same article was in local paper today about the plan with the Barred Owls. I suppose the second part of their plan will be to shoot us loggers :D if killing the Barred Owls don't work. Leave it to the Federal Goverment. I continue to lose confidence everyday with those Bafoons.

Offline Mike_M

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2012, 01:34:19 PM »
Tony,
        I forgot to ask if you know Mike Wiedeman(sp?). I beleive he owns BTO logging out of LaGrande. My dad knows him from AOL(Associated Oregon Loggers). He had a write up a few years back in Loggers World Magazine. That is some awesome country in Eastern Oregon. Long span skyline layouts look pretty common in that area with very small landing/loading areas. Love sharing these connections with my Dad. He is 71 and about as retired as he will every be. Comes out on the job and runs log loader now and then, looks things over, and then goes home for a nap. I look up to anyone who has made their living outside!

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2012, 04:30:48 PM »
Tony,
I think the bridge you are talking about is the one diagonally across from Minam store at the bottom of the grade. Its about 100yds upstream on the Wallowa from where the Wallowa and Minam join. It actually has steel framing but a wooden deck. but was also not rated for 80k lb loads.  We put bracing under that bridge anytime we hauled over it. I seem to remember Hafer having a GT3 job that hauled across that bridge. If I remember right, part of that job also hauled across a wooden bridge we had  about a mile upstream on the Minam. There are other wooden bridges across the Wallowa between Minam store and the town of Wallowa (which is 8-10 mi upstream from the Minam junction) but to my knowledge, none of them ever had logs hauled over them.
Mike,
I knew Mike Weideman. He is quite the activist on forestry issues.
Terry,
I'm quite sure that I've been on your fence line, though probably before you owned the land. The winter of 1975, I ran and marked many of the company's property lines in the Meacham area. I've probably been near it in more recent times, but most likely on a weekend while picking Morels.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2012, 07:12:13 PM »
Mike;

I know of BTO but I don't know them well. There was a log cutter who worked for them for year's that I knew but I don't know Mike. We did a contract loading and hauling job out on coyote ridge north of Joseph OR. where they where off line logging in some hole. There truck's where boiling out of there also. I was thinking BTO was from Joseph or Enterprise but maybe they are in Lagrande now. I think they where a pretty good size Company.

Yes, that sidewinder was a nice yarder for sure. It would move alot of wood and when I was around that machine cutting it usually did not draw real choice sales. Long long set's and some of the timber was not real thick either, scatterd crap. Not alway's but it got it's fair share and would still move alot of wood. That crew was very good on that machine. We did a job on Tolgate that was very nice I remember, thick white fir and some spruce, many 3 and 4 footer's back to back. Good timber but had to hump to cut 100 log's on that job for the size  :D. I remember many day's there that I would burn 2 full gallon's of gas and not get a 100 log's  :-\.

Monte will chuckle when you ask him about Brian I'm sure. I don't know how many year's those two worked with each other but it was a long time. Really good guy's to work around for sure and very good at what they did. There is another guy there at Eagle I was thinking of the other night, Wayne. I don't know if he is still there, that was back in the 90's. He grew up there locally as well. He welded a set up cable log trailer bunk's to a solid set for me one afternoon to get me out of a bind  ;D. Very good welder, I knew him forever but didn't know he could weld that good. I had been putting that off and he fixed it in like two hour's  :D. Your in good hand's with Eagle that is for sure, the thing's are bullet proof it seem's. I have seen those carriges get dropped, drug threw rocks with no lift, etc. and just keep ticking along. No one ever tried to hurt one but you know how it is on some set's. Just don't always' go right. r

Mike the logger or logging company I was trying to remember that we logged by over by halfway Or. I have been trying to remember all weekend, I think it was Fibb's logging, does that ring a bell? They where logging about 30 miles out of Halfway/pine eagle area on that one timber sale I'm speaking of, about 8 million feet if I remember right. Good size job. I don't know if that is the right name for sure, I tried to call my old log cutting partner, he worked for them on that job but he is no longer in the area either.   

Bob;

I remember the bridge right there at the store or just up from the minam store. The one I'm speaking of is torward wallowa, up the river before you get into wallowa. That is the bridge that was used when we did the heli job for Rogue. One of the sales back in there anyway.   



   

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2012, 02:33:28 AM »
Tony,
If its the wooden bridge that crosses at Trump's cabin (which seems to fit your description) I can't imagine hauling logs across it. I do however seem to remember some helicopter logging on the South side of the river above Trump's  cabin. I sold the larch logs to Trump for the stringers for that bridge & he wouldn't follow my recommendation to use logs large enough to haul over. In fact I offered to provide the large enough logs for free and build the bridge in exchange for a right-of-way across his property, but he wasn't interested. He still held a deep seated hatred for the company from when they bought the old mill in Wallowa some 20 or 30 years previously, and then shut it down. The other wooden bridge, about a mile closer to Wallowa, has about the same size stringers. However, the road to it on the South side of the river goes right next to Smejkl's(sp) house and winds tightly around his barn, so I don't think its that one.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2012, 07:52:35 PM »
Bob;

Jump on google maps, find Minam Or. Then go up river toward Wallowa, just past the rest area in the canyon find Water canyon. There she be..........   

Offline BaldBob

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2012, 06:04:21 AM »
Tony,
That would be the Smejkl bridge. I can understand why there would be a high pucker factor crossing it with a fully loaded log truck. On Google earth I can make out a road heading away from his house toward where the logging occurred.

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2012, 08:58:26 AM »
It wasn't fun  :D. I had a bad feeling that whole time we where up that canyon. When you follow that road up the canyon on google, take that first spur up the hill, then up on top they flew some of those short draw's right up on top also. I didn't have a front end loader then, we had Ron over at Gilmer logging bring there's up to that job to pack from the drop to the loader and coiler's. Ron grew up with my dad, he told me we where nut's when he came out to service there machine  :D over that bride. I couldn't remember the name of the canyon till I got online to look and then recalled water canyon. I'm going to try to get ahold of Ron this weekend to see if he remember's that sale we did up there. I shot my first buck with Ron up lad canyon one morning, trent his son and I where buddies till he moved to Arizona with his mom. I think Ron still mechanic's for Gilmer logging last I heard.   

Offline Overlength

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2012, 06:17:35 PM »
I worked in a LP mill in the high Sierra's northern Cal in the early 80's. Plumas County. Best time of my life. Worked there 2 years and the mill shut down. Spotted Owl, Canadian competition,etc. Third generation workers lost jobs forever. Anyway, I go back every year to gold prospect and enjoy the beautiful country.  Now the forest is either a thicket, the trees are growing 3 ft apart, underbrush all over the place, or it is a wasteland competely burned to the ground. How surprising.
Woodmizer LT30, Solar Kiln 400 bf

Offline Silver_Eagle

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #41 on: March 07, 2012, 09:24:14 AM »
Overlength;

I have ran across people all over the states with similar stories, I left Oregon later than alot of people in the industry that I know. The carnage that was caused by the political owl debacle along with the NAFTA agreement is just a shame in my opinion. Just destroyed a class of people that is second to none in my opinion. Still to this day I have a knot in my stomach for the issue, the stupidity that prevailed over the rural population's vote and voice. I still believe the true environmentalist live and worked within the industry. They are the voice with knowledge and boot's on the ground that still should be heard.

I am personally so thankful that I have found The Forestry Forum, not only for the knowledge that is shared here on a daily basis but to actually see there are people out there still all over this great land operating and sharing there experiences.  ;D 

Offline colinofthewoods

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #42 on: March 07, 2012, 11:05:24 AM »
this whole owl thing is such a mess !  I get lots of barred owls at my cabin.  I never hear them in the old growth , only in the 40 year old regen.

trying to target one owl to save another is crazy,   I remeber a while back here on the island they were actually killing eagles trying to protect marmots !

this thread reminded me a shirt I used to see some fallers wearing at the bar years back.  it read " save the trees , whipe your a$$ with an owl "

Online Ron Scott

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2012, 12:20:20 AM »
Below is a link to a commentary by Dean Jim Huffman explaining the ESA double standard.
>
> http://nwfreepress.com/a-tale-of-two-birds/jim-huffman/
~Ron

Online Ron Scott

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Re: The Spotted Owl Again
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2012, 12:05:45 PM »
Proposed Rule: Revised Critical Habitat for the Northern Spotted Owl

The Federal Register, Published by the Fish and Wildlife Service, March 8th
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) proposes to revise the designated critical habitat for the northern spotted owl (Strix occidentalis caurina) under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, as amended (Act). Consistent with the best scientific data available, the standards of the Act, our regulations, and agency practice, we have initially identified, for public comment, approximately 13,962,449 acres (ac) (5,649,660 hectares (ha)) in 11 units and 63 subunits in California, Oregon, and Washington that meet the definition of critical habitat. To read more of this article link to:
https://www.federalregister.gov/articles/2012/03/08/2012-5042/endangered-and-threatened-wildlife-and-plants-revised-critical-habitat-for-the-northern-spotted-owl


~Ron


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