On demand/tankless water heaters?

[LeeB]

Anyone have any experiance with this type water heater and what are you opinions of them? looking for info on both gas and electric.

[Stephen1]

I have an interest also,

[Radar67]

The house I helped with a few years back, the lady installed an electric for the whole house. It required 3 Double Pole 30 amp breakers. From speaking with her, she said she could only use hot water at one point, ie the sink or the shower. She also had to replace the unit after a year due to little particles of plastic and stuff in the pipes from the build. We thought the system was flushed out pretty good before we took it live. I have done a little research on them and if I were to install one for myself, I would install a whole house gas. They are pricey though.

[beenthere]

I recently discussed this with a plumber friend, and he said periodic cleaning to get rid of the buildup deposits is very important and not easily a DIY project. Said they get $250 for doing that service. So don't know any more than that, but would be worth looking into if going the 'tankless' route.

We had a tankless hot water on-demand system in the milk house when I was a teenager in the middle 50's. Turned on a cold water faucet that ran into the top of the heater, and very hot water ran out the bottom into the cleaning tank. Don't recall ever having to clean it, but then I wasn't around the milk house all day either. My plumber friend was surprised to hear that we had such an item back in that day.

[blackfoot griz]

LeeB
We built a new house 5 years ago and installed an on demand propane-fired water heater. So far, it has been flawless. No problem having multiple hot water uses going on at the same time--you can't run it out of hot water.  Also, it doesn't take much room. It is installed on an exterior wall with an air intake and vent. The unit measures 24" X 12" x 9" deep.

After reading Beenthere's comments, I became concerned (I haven't touched mine since we built the house!) so I pulled the manual and read the maintenence section. In short, it says it will flash a code if the cold water inlet screen needs to be cleaned and the only other thing is to vaccuum off the fins if dusty. On this model, it was an easy task.

The only thing that might be an issue is that when it is operating, the exhaust fan does make some noise.

[Raider Bill]

Are they that cost effective considering the up front expense to get a proper sized one and propane/gas vs a conventional hot water heater? When do you figure it balances out?

[Radar67]

Bill the biggest advantage to these units is they only operate when needed. The conventional tanks are in a constant on/off state to keep a tank of water heated. (like at night when you are sleeping). When I take trips, I turn my conventional heater off and can see a difference in my electric bill after just one week, like a $10 to $15 difference.

[Raider Bill]

I understand that part but you have a much bigger up front cost [ cost of unit, gas supply, vent ect.] so I'm wondering when it equals out. I'm not sure what the average cost of hot water is per year. My conventional water heater's here in Florida and Tenn. are on a timers.  They only heat 8 hours per day split into 2, 4 hour segments which is more than I need for 2 people taking showers and employees washing hands and whatever dishes we have. I could probably  knock that down to 3 hour heating cycles. Both are 50gal. Just a timer alone saved me big bucks on my power bill.
When I was building I looked into a on demand system but up front was quite costly as opposed to the 50 gal and timer which was less that $400 complete.

[blackfoot griz]

Don't most new appliances including water heaters sport a sticker that shows the estimated  average annual cost? Was thinking it was an estimate based on the average usage of a family of four people.

[Holmes]

  It can cost $2500 and up for an on demand gas water heater installation. Gas units burn about 199,000 btu's per hour.
The electric units do not put out much hot water. They are usually installed at point of use. A large electric unit could require a 440 volt electric main for the house.

[rowerwet]

I installed a Paloma (Rheem) from Home depot in my house over 5 years ago. It is nice never running out of hot water, especially as I have 3 daughters and a wife.
  The Rheeme unit comes with an external thermostat that I mounted on the wall in the bathroom, you set the water temp to what you want 100-120 degrees F and never touch the cold water faucet.
   Do your homework if you put one of these in, I did have one component fail and the remote started flashing a code, I called the service number and they told me there was no one in the area that was a certified installer, however they drop shipped the part to me and told me to call my gas co.. My gas co. has people who know the brand and are trained on it, the repair took a few hours and didn't cost me a cent.
   A co-worker of mine had a different brand of tankless water heater, some part failed and no one in the area could work on it, one company came and fooled around with it, they left it unplugged and it froze and burst that night. she ended up getting a different brand that her gas co. recomended.
   My tankless won't freeze as long as it is plugged in, it will use the electricity to keep it warm as needed. It also senses water pressure, the first sign I get of the main water filter needing to be changed is a code on the remote.
   My tankless cost about $300 more than a power vent tank heater, I didn't hire a plumber, something I can do in my area, I work on airplanes for a living so high pressure gas, electric and plumbing are things I do every day. The average DIY may be in over their head.
just don't end up like these people http://www.1strespondernews.com/webpages/news/displaynews.aspx?ID=5cef1591-6edf-43d8-bb1c-1b4896d6d637

[Handy Andy]

  My daughter purchased a Rheem also, and was about 5 years ago we built the house, my neighbor installed the heater and no problems.  My problem with the system is that they used the manifold system, and the heater is on one end of the house, so the water has to go to the manifold, then to the other end of the house to the bathroom, and it seems to take forever to get hot water.  But they are used to it and don't complain.  The house has 4 bathrooms.

[Brucer]

On demand heaters need energy -- gas or electric -- at a much higher rate than tank types. This generally isn't a problem with gas because the lines can deliver the gas a lot faster than you will ever need it. It can be a problem with electricity, however. You may need a bigger service; the newer pricing models for electric power charge a lot more for peak usage.

I don't have gas and I'm on a time-of-use billing scheme for power. With a large, well-insulated tank I can leave the water heater shut off during the peak billing period and only turn it on during the much cheaper off-peak period. An on-demand electric heater would be hit me pretty hard in the wallet.

[Woodey]

The previous owner of my house replaced the gas hot water heater with electric.

I will replace with tankless when the electric goes out.

My hot water tank is located in the garage. Will the tankless heat up the water and stay hot traveling to the back of the house?

[Brucer]

You'll want to insulate the water line really well.

The longer the line the less cost-effective these things are. WIth a long line, you turn on the tap and then wait while the hot water fills the line. When you shut off the tap the hot water still in the line cools back down.

[LeeB]

It would appear that the neighbor and my son in law came to Lindy's rescue. They cleaned all the sedament out of the old tank and put in new elements. I do appreciate all the comments and am still thinking about switching over. When the electricity goes out for long periods it would be  nice to have hot water. (LP fired version). We're all electric right now, but I do have a 500 gal propane tank that's not seeing any use.

[Sprucegum]

The gas fired demand heater (Navien) we have at work requires electricity as well to operate. It works real well when it works but it has had lots of problems - most of them covered by warrantee. The plumber said "Good news, only 2 or 3 more breakdowns and Navien will give you a whole new unit".  ???  :

[downeast]

We have a Rinnai tankless on propane/LP since 2004 that replaced a Bosch on-demand that had serious QC problems. With the minimal DIY ( NOT $250. ! ) yearly flush of the copper coils with vinegar, there have been no, zero problems with the Rinnai. The flush is simple for removing any deposits on the coils.

Couple of things to know:
Rinnai insists on installers' training with Rinnai.
There is NO savings over more conventional tank water heaters. Why ? The hot water flow is "infinite". One tends, with aged creaky joints, to stay in a hot shower longer---seriously.
While I did the mechanical install ( hanging the unit and the direct vent ), and some of the plumbing, Rinnai requires that a trained and licensed tech do the gas and electrical hookups.
There is a 20 year life expectancy compared to 7-10 for tank units.
It isn't cheap. While not $2500.,our commercial Rinnai was $1400.
One major advantage in getting a larger capacity water heater is that we can run simultaneously: shower, dishwasher, washing machine with little flow decrease.
The Rinnai demands a large intake of air; not usable in a closed space.

I chose this after looking at a local boy's camp that has used 12 Rinnai water heaters for 8 seasons without ANY downtime.

Recommended strongly.

[JohnM]

...that replaced a Bosch on-demand that had serious QC problems.

DO NOT BUY A BOSCH!  We nearly lost our house to one.  The little rocker switch didn't 'rock' back after we shut off the water.  It was 'flame on' for I don't know how long (I was away that weekend of course), it just fired away.  Had a plastic drier vent for the outside exhaust that completely melted and it ended up sending scalding water/steam back 'up stream' bubbling the CPVC.  Why nothing actually caught fire was pure luck.  (The plastic vent was my father's idea years before cause he didn't 'like' the metal pipe running up the side of the house.  He used to sell insurance, can you believe it?!  :D)  That Bosch had issues right out of the box.

We replaced with a standard propane tank heater and so far like it much better.  As was noted we have longer uninsulated runs so the tank gets hot water to the far reaches of the house much quicker.  Our plumbing is completely 'jacked up' so the tank works for us, for now.  I'm betting a properly installed and well made tankless, like downeast's Rinnai, is better over all.

My two cents.

JM

[downeast]

My neighbor JohnM is right about installing a quality heater--or anything mechanical. The Bosch tankless was made by a Japanese maker, Takagi ( sp. ?).

We had problems from the start with intermittent heat and irregular operation. The distributor ( from Vermont ) was excellent with tech support, sending me parts to install many times including 2 complete circuit boards. It was a PITA to do the parts replacement over a year's time of frustration; many many hours. A new unit they sent had similar problems. They finally gave us our money back and took the 'old' unit. Nice customer service, but a bad product. I'm not a qualified gas tech !

Other than the yearly vinegar flushing maintenance, the Rinnai has performed flawlessly ( like my Stihls and Subarus ! ). Just be sure that they install the flushing valves--extra $$$, and worth it.

[scsmith42]

We have a Rinnai tankless on propane/LP since 2004 that replaced a Bosch on-demand that had serious QC problems. With the minimal DIY ( NOT $250. ! ) yearly flush of the copper coils with vinegar, there have been no, zero problems with the Rinnai. The flush is simple for removing any deposits on the coils.

Couple of things to know:
Rinnai insists on installers' training with Rinnai.
There is NO savings over more conventional tank water heaters. Why ? The hot water flow is "infinite". One tends, with aged creaky joints, to stay in a hot shower longer---seriously.
While I did the mechanical install ( hanging the unit and the direct vent ), and some of the plumbing, Rinnai requires that a trained and licensed tech do the gas and electrical hookups.
There is a 20 year life expectancy compared to 7-10 for tank units.
It isn't cheap. While not $2500.,our commercial Rinnai was $1400.
One major advantage in getting a larger capacity water heater is that we can run simultaneously: shower, dishwasher, washing machine with little flow decrease.
The Rinnai demands a large intake of air; not usable in a closed space.

I chose this after looking at a local boy's camp that has used 12 Rinnai water heaters for 8 seasons without ANY downtime.

Recommended strongly.

+1 on Rinnai.  Stay away from the electric.  I have a small one (40A circuit) under a sink in the barn; to scale it up to whole house capacity would require a mega electric service.

[downeast]

Right : electric BTUs are big $$$$, and not efficient for heating water compared with gas ( LP or natural ) or oil.

Maine @ .14 /KW has among the highest electricity costs ( Quebec dams) in the USA. And, all the power producing dams in Maine have been destroyed. Only the inefficient, expensive land based wind turbine generators subsidized by taxes are in vogue with so-called "environmental" organisations. No tidal, no dams, no sea based turbines, no nukes in the works. Furthermore. little attention is paid to our most abundant, sustainable, renewable resource: WOOD. :

A rant. Pardon moi.

[Handy Andy]

  Hear my daughter's Rheem, 5 years old, is now leaking.  So much for a long life water heater.

[Al_Smith]

They're probabley all good ideas but it depends on the application if they work well or not .

If you have high mineral content in the water unless the components of the water heater were made of stainless steel they won't last long .My heaters last about 7 -8 years maybe .Fact because I've done so many I can change one out in about an hour .

A point of use heater costs about the same as a 40 gallon quick recovery electric .So do you really save any money over installing a timer on a standard water heater ?

It's about like spending 700 bucks on a toilet that uses a gallon of water and base the savings on the amount of water saved knowing all along you have to flush the stupid thing 3 times instead of just once .You can pump or buy a lot of water for the extra money it costs to get this so called "green toilet ".

I've seen people spend a fortune to save pennies .Not me but it's something to talk about . ;)

[downeast]

Al's got a point....somewhat.

The quality of the Rinnai does cost more ( ~ 3X the average tank heater. Butt: I certainly would have already gone through  2 of them at this point! ). This appliance was bought NOT to save $$$, but to have a lasting ( unlimited ), reliable, efficient source of hot water. ALL tank water heaters that I've replaced did go ~ 6-8 years....and that WITH maintenance: anodes, flushing, cleaning, etc....both gas and electric. In our new place I didn't want to go through the leaks, the humping of the worthless tank to the dump, the plumbing, the cost, the six packs to take the sting of stress out of that silly obsolete design. Think buggy whips.

Maine water has a high mineral content: the flushing 1X/year is simple.

Find someone with a tankless Al. Take a looooooong shower. Come back with your decision.

[Al_Smith]

 I've got that 40 gallon quick recovery and so far it's never ran out of hot water .None actually have they just end up leaking eventually .The present one is supposed to be a longer life heater .Time will tell on that .

There was a big ado about using a recirc loop with a little Grundfoss type pump instead of point of usage heaters .I don't remember exactly how that debate ended .

On a side note with the timer going off at 11 pm and back on at 5 am there is still plenty of hot left in the water to take a morning shower .My work schedual is so goofy I'm never exactly certain what hours I might be working but none the less the timer doesn't hamper things .

Since natural gas and profane --er propane has gotten so high I'm not so sure there's much difference in what it takes money wise between gas and electric .Of course the gas companies will argue otherwise but they lie .That or for testing purposes they set the hot at 90 degrees and call it "hot " water .Figures don't lie but liars figure .

[downeast]

"Profane" is a good one Al.
Big difference between both cost and efficiency ( BTU/unit of heat) between electric and any gas for a larger scale tankless unit. Electric could do for very intermittent small scale use  e.g. hot drinks or washing up in an outbuilding or small bath; not for larger, longer usage such as dishwasher and shower and washing machine. Your 40 gallon would run out long before the tankless even worked hard.

Try one out.

[Al_Smith]

  Try one out.

Now why would I do that ?The 40 gal. quick recovery hasn't layed down on me yet .I think that thing will do like over 60 an hour on a recovery .

Besides that if I took the notion to spend an hour in the shower I'd come out looking like a prune and I'm wrinkley enough already without any additional help . :D

Now this is not to say that at one time in my life I didn't enjoy long  showers but at that praticular in my life it was with companionship of the more softer gender without TMI any further on the subject . ;)

[downeast]

"NIH" is in force. I've got plenty of TLA's in the book Al.
Butt: "TMI" ?  :P

[Brucer]

Too Much Information

[Al_Smith]

I guess you have to add everything involved before you make a choice on which is better .

I rechecked my heater size and it's a 50 gallon instead of a 40 as first reported .It was like 460 dollars as oppossed to what 700 for a tankless ? So it'll last 7-8 years maybe ,maybe longer .

It's electric but you don't have to deal with the profane company which are pirates if you've ever dealt with them,I mean just plain crooks .The plumbing is already installed as is  the power so all you have you do is change the thing every so often .

So with maybe as in my case would it be better to just keep what already works as oppossed to dealing with installing maybe 3 tankless because of the design of the house ? I don't think so but that's just my opinion .

I'm somewhat of a fuss though ,I didn't rush right out and spend 700 on a toilet that won't flush nor bought an automobile you have to plug in either .Nor do I cut firewood with a bow saw just to save gasoline .

[downeast]

I guess you have to add everything involved before you make a choice on which is better .

I rechecked my heater size and it's a 50 gallon instead of a 40 as first reported .It was like 460 dollars as oppossed to what 700 for a tankless ? So it'll last 7-8 years maybe ,maybe longer .

It's electric but you don't have to deal with the profane company which are pirates if you've ever dealt with them,I mean just plain crooks .The plumbing is already installed as is  the power so all you have you do is change the thing every so often .

So with maybe as in my case would it be better to just keep what already works as oppossed to dealing with installing maybe 3 tankless because of the design of the house ? I don't think so but that's just my opinion .

I'm somewhat of a fuss though ,I didn't rush right out and spend 700 on a toilet that won't flush nor bought an automobile you have to plug in either .Nor do I cut firewood with a bow saw just to save gasoline .

Right Al. We could plan well since the place was self built on the woodlot.

With Maine electric @ .14/kwh an electric tankless or any all electric appliance other than the usual motors ( frig, etc...) and lights was out. Other than cooking, very rare gas drying, the tankless is the heavy propane user; comes out to less than 200 g/year.
The low end of the high end Toto toilets ( "variable flush" ) were ~ $250 each and well worth it since they've never clogged. Where the H do you spend $700. ?

Propane peddlers are like the Wild West here, but they can be beaten by aggressive and periodic demands to change services. Unlike the power companies, propane is competitive here. At first they put us in the highest bracket since we use "too little". That changed.

So far so good with this tankless Rinnai going on its 12th year. As I said, there'd be at least two tank water heaters replaced by now. Hate it. Break even at this point....and the big benefit of "unlimited" hot showers for these bodies.

Back in 2000 we used the 'newer' Pex piping for plumbing. Roughing was simple once you get the joint device mastered. It was easy working the Pex around corners, through the floor in single pipe runs. And, the stuff if frozen won't crack like copper or PVC since this is an all wood heated place.

[Al_Smith]

Pex they say is a piece of cake but I've never used it myself .I did however replace all the copper lines under the house with CPVC a few back .The combination of hard water along with a touch of sulfer from a previously used well did the number on them but it took since 1973 to finally do them in .

When they first came out the low water usage toillets were right at 450-500 .It appears the price has dropped since .However if you choose you can dump over a thousand in one .Every piece of plumping fixture ,sink whatever I've replaced in this house has been Kohler .If it were the toilets they too would be Kohler .

High end Kohler is costly but it's a one time deal because it's warrenteed for life .Fact on a ceramic "Avatar " faucet that needed  parts and cost over 500 new ,the item has since been discontinued .Kohler replaced it with a brushed nickle unit that retailed at over 700 and is still warrenteed for life .

So that is maybe like the Rinnai water heater .If it lasts a long time you'll forget all about the original purchase price .If however it takes a dive after a few years you'll likely never buy another .

Now I'm a notorious tightwad .I'm so tight you couldn't pound a flax seed up my butt with a ten pound sledge .However when it comes to plumbing fixtures ,appliances etc. I buy the best I can afford .

I can do any thing mechanically ,electrically ,in a machine shop ,you name it .My least favorite thing of all is working on a house .There for when I do it I certainly don't want to do it constaintly .A water  heater every 7-8 years I can do though .

[maple flats]

I use a instant water heater (tankless) in the sugarhouse. After having to heat water on propane burners (I have 3 @ 170,000 BTU) I find the tankless far superior. I only got a small, camper size, rated at 1.3 GPM @ 90 degree temp. rise. The performance surprised me. Mine was designed to run off a 20# tank but I hooked it to the big tank that does the finishing, and canning of the syrup. I need 15 gal @ 130 degrees to clean my Reverse Osmosis. I can draw it at about 1.4 GPM, far faster than running 3 SS pots on 3- 170,000 BTU burners. And the little tankless is only using 37,000 BTU but it is exactly where it is needed. I doubt I'll have an issue with the water, because I only use it with my permeate water( the pure water removed from maple sap to concentrate the sugar before sending it to the evaporator to boil into maple syrup) , which is almost as pure as distilled but not quite.
Being a retired plumber of sorts (I used to sell, service and install OWB's) I know the issue. We used to service the hot water coils in the OWB. Hard water, mostly lime is the issue. Heat makes the lime build up inside the copper pipes. The fix is to circulate acid to dissolve the lime. Then flush with lots of clean water. As stated above, the permeate from my RO has no detectable minerals or sugar at all. When I ordered the little one, rated at 1.3 gpm, I almost bought one that cost 2x as much because I figured it would be too slow. That proved not to be the case.
This unit however could not be used in a home, because it it direct vent, into the inside air. At the sugarhouse this is not an issue, because it is designed to vent steam along with any exhaust from all gas burners, it all goes out the cupola pronto quick. Even though we at times have 3 @ 170,000 BTU burners, a 250,000 BTU finisher, a 150,000 BTU canner and the 37,000 BTU propane tankless heater going at the same time, our CO detectors never register any CO, not even low levels.

[Al_Smith]

If you have the flame adjusted correctly on gas,natural or profane ,er propane most likely a  carbon monoxide moniter won't go off .

Even on a catalytic ventless type heater they burn pretty clean .Exceptions of course are dirty grids ,not enough air to the burner ,not enough ventilation etc .Never the less a CO moniter in my opinion is a very  good idea when dealing with gas .

[crcoffeeguy]

I have been using an Italian model from Lorenzetti for the last three year. It's awesome.
I live totally off the grid in Costa Rica so it really helps.
My woodshop is located next door to a new manufacturer of these units. They have 12 litre/minute units that run about $350. Instalation is a gas line, 2 screws and a vent hole in the wall(careful with that.
We run a household of three using about 1 small tank of lp a month.
I thik they are great, and they shouldn't be too expensive.
We are getting two more for the new house. The big thing is keeping the hot water lines short, our sink is about 40' away so ittakes. a good minute for the hot water to get there.
For the shower it's great, it's in the shower.
Chai for now.

[muddstopper]

I dont understand all this trying to save money when you are using something that is either going to use electricity or gas when it functions. My neigbor uses a gas tankless heater, but it seldom even comes on. He assembled a solar water heater out of some 2x4, copper pipe, aluminum flashing and a sheet of lexan. He got an old tank water heater at the dump. I cut the bottom of the tank out and he installed copper pipe in a coil for fresh water and I welded the bottom of the tank back together.  The water inside the tank circulates back to the solar collector and is never in contact or mixes with his fresh water. The copper pipe he installed inside the tank acts as a heat exchanger collecting the heat from the water generated from the solar collector. He lowered the heat setting on his tankless heater to about 120degf and now it never comes on. He can get over 130degree hot water in the winter time and has to shut down one of his collectors in the summer to keep from getting to hot of water at his faucets. I dont know the brand of the tankless heater, but its been in his house now for 7 or 8 years without a problem. Of course, if it doesnt have to turn on, it shouldnt wear out. Main thing is, it doesnt burn gas or use electricity so it doesnt cost anything to use.

[Al_Smith]

Main thing is, it doesnt burn gas or use electricity so it doesnt cost anything to use.

Correct to a point .However you have to figure the original cost of installation ,expected service life and total gallons of usage to arrive at a true cost per unit .

It's kind of like compairing 12 inchs of attic insulation as oppossed to 2 feet .Obviously 24" would be better than 12 but how long does it take before the savings equal or exceed the fuel cost prices ?

[sparky1]

I was also debating on purchasing a tankless water heater. Due to the price and from alot of people on here they seem to have just as many issues as the tank heaters, Im gonna opt for putting a timmer on my current LP tank. In the winter it runs off the OWB anyways. I can buy a timer for under $50 bucks..

[danreed76]

A few years ago we put in a Titan tankless electric (not sure which one, it was a 2-element unit).  Did okay, but didn't quite keep up all the time; made a huge difference in the electric bill over the tank heater, though.  About a year later, we had a water leak, and it sprayed the unit, destroying the controller card.  I fixed the leak, and installed a new Titan (this time a 3 element unit), which did require heavier wire and a bigger circuit breaker, but now it keeps up with whatever we put on it and still is great on the energy savings.  Don't remember what we paid for them, but I bought both on Ebay.

[ahlkey]

I installed an electric tankless in my Log Cabin 4 years ago and it has performed well.  It was the largest one you could buy for northern climates at 120 amps ( 4 - 30 am breakers) as I needed it for a shower and washer.  My reasoning for installing electric was I looking at saving space over a conventional tank heater, did not have an easy way to vent it, and preferred not to purchase an LP tank or service.   I did buy it on eBay for less than $500.   It is also easier to winterize. Overall, believe they are a good option for small seasonal cabins or cottages.

[Al_Smith]

The point of use heaters are one option .Keep in mind there are others such as thermal blankets which help ,timers to a point also .Insulating the water pipes helps too to a point .

I wasn't even aware they made timers for gas fired units until the previous post .

Some of the newer tank units are much more efficient than the older types .

Keep in mind there is really no free way to have the conveniance of hot water on tap when you want it .The cheapest would be like great great grandmother with a cast iron pot over the fire but that would not please the Mrs I gaurentee .You'd get the hot tongue and cold shoulder over that one .

[muddstopper]

Main thing is, it doesnt burn gas or use electricity so it doesnt cost anything to use.

Correct to a point .However you have to figure the original cost of installation ,expected service life and total gallons of usage to arrive at a true cost per unit .

It's kind of like compairing 12 inchs of attic insulation as oppossed to 2 feet .Obviously 24" would be better than 12 but how long does it take before the savings equal or exceed the fuel cost prices ?

How much does a couple of 2x4s, some copper pipe, aluminum flashing and a piece of lexan cost? The water heater tank was picked up for free at the dump. It cost pennies to torch out the bottom and weld it back up. The lexan can be picked up at most any glass company and can usually be bought for pennies on the dollar if you get it from their scrap pile. I cant give you an exact dollar cost of his solar collector system, but it was pretty much made from scrap materials, so I guess way less the $200, the biggest expense being the copper pipe and fittings.  Installation he did himself, I would guess payback on the system to be less than one year. As a bonus, thios spring he has hooked up a condenser in his heat/ac trunk line to act as a heat exchanger, that he diverts the excess hot water thru and uses it to supplement his heating cost. This next winter will be the test as to how well his system works and I am keeping a close eye to see how it turn out.

[Al_Smith]

Yes indeed however you are the exception to the rule .

On that like most there are options you can do .I knew one person who preheated the water through a series of pipes under the roof in the attic for a savings and that was in the 1970's .

It boils down to what extremes a person will do to save a buck .You know I'm not opposed to it and I commend such efforts it's just what extremes the average person would go to .

[muddstopper]

Sometime it just takes a little ingenuity. Neccessity is the mother of invention. Of course I dont figure my buddies system an extreme as I have seen, I would guess you have to, many similar setups on the internet, and have also seen some pretty high priced store bought solar collectors.

My buddy is also trying a geothermal setup to cool his house. I trenched in about 300ft of pipe under his garden, which he attached to his condenser/heat exchanger in his hvac duct work. He is circulating just plain water thru the pipe using a low voltage solar powered pump. Soil temps where 62 degrees at 2ft of depth. I am also keeping a close check to see how this works out. Personally, I think he doesnt have enough trunk line for the proper heat exchange and he has already said his exchanger isnt working as well for the cooling as it does the heating. His plans are for a bigger exchanger. Anyways, when he gets all the buggs worked out of his system, I will probably start on a similar project for my house.

[submarinesailor]

mudder,

I think the rule of thumb is 700' of 1" per ton of AC.

Bruce

[Al_Smith]

700 is indeed what it is in this part of the country 4 feet deep per ton AC .On that my geo system is a 6 ton unit ran off of a well of which I have two .Water temp 53.6 degrees .

The old Tetco units used plain water through an A-coil to cool and refridgeration through a reversing valve to heat .They actually worked pretty good considering the time period .

Those I don't think they ever used on a ground loop .Most were either well fed or from a pond or lake .

[jimparamedic]

When money is no object anything is possible. I can remember when fuel cells, mini nuclear reactors and flying cars were going to be in every home. If room is not a problem than there is a company making a life time electric water heater,it has a fiber glass tank lots of insulation and an outer layer of fiber glass. they run about 700 dollars Marathon Water heaters . It boils down to if it fits your needs than its a good thing.

[Al_Smith]

I think you pretty much nailed it ,what ever works out best .

[muddstopper]

mudder,

I think the rule of thumb is 700' of 1" per ton of AC.

Bruce

Thats good to know, I havent researched this geothermal thing at all so I didnt know that.

I think my buddies problem is with the heat exchange. He checks the temps going into and out of his exchanger and isnt finding much of a difference. It could be the water is flowing to fast thru the exchanger, or the exchanger simply isnt big enough to to began with. I havent talked to him lately since this big heat wave has hit, so I dont know if his system is providing any benefit or not. He is using the condenser out of an old electric heat pump. The condenser is aluminum with copper tubing passing thru it. He simply soldered fitting to where the freon used to circulate thru the condenser and then hooked up his pipe.