iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Don't limb for faster drying

Started by jwillett2009, June 21, 2012, 09:04:30 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jwillett2009

Ive read a few tips and tricks here and recently got a chance to try another. I knocked down 7 sugar maple trees about three weeks ago. I left the branches and leaves on until day before yesterday when I went to get them. I split most of it now. I have been taking a few moisture measurements with my meter and averaging around 30%. I also split some that I had cut last fall (it was bucked and piled but not split)... It reads around 45% and is noticeably much heavier. I've also found the stuff just out of the woods ALOT easier to split.

Confirmation... This trick worked for me.
60 acre woodlot, 455 rancher husqavarna, MS660 stihl, 196? Massey ferguson farm tractor with three point hitch, Granberg Mark III Alaskan CSM, Sierra 1500

beenthere

Great that it worked for you.  8)

What are you using for a moisture meter?
Reading anything above (and around) 30% mc usually won't register on a meter....the mc% where there is free water in the cells.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

pineywoods

I do the same thing with all my red oak firewood. I cut the tree after it's fully leafed out and leave it in the woods for 3 weeks to a month. Then de-limb and skid it out to a landing, where it's cut to length and split. Don't have a moisture meter but It dries quickly. Dry wood is a necessity for me, I heat with a gassifier indoor stove, it definitely does not like wood that's not very dry...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

jwillett2009

The meter I use is an Extech MO220 http://www.extech.com/instruments/product.asp?catid=11&prodid=73. I think its supposed to be accurate (within spec) between 6 and 45% although it will read higher, its just not "guaranteed" to be within the stated accuracy. Basically, you need to find the wood species you are measuring in the users manual and punch up the right catagory. I've found it to be a good meter up to this point. It will do temperature compensation also but I don't bother for firewood. My only disappointment is that it doesn't have all our native woods so sometimes you need to pick something "close" if you cant find the proper species.
60 acre woodlot, 455 rancher husqavarna, MS660 stihl, 196? Massey ferguson farm tractor with three point hitch, Granberg Mark III Alaskan CSM, Sierra 1500

Al_Smith

Seldom with the exception of hazard trees do I cut a live one .Most are grave yard dead .However a sugar maple will dry relatively easy if you split it in a timely fashion .

If you don't and fiddle around and let in lay in the round too long the stuff will grow mushrooms .

That trick does work because years ago I dropped fence row trees in July after the wheat was off and let them lay for a couple weeks .

stumper

This is an age old "trick".  By leaving the felled tree with the leaves, the leave continue to draw the mosture out of the trunk through evapotransporation.  Fell it, sever it from the stump (you must interupt the sapwood) and leave it till the leave turn brown.  It works well.  I have also had some success girdling the tree, again you must sever the sap wood. 

jwillett2009

Quote from: stumper on June 22, 2012, 10:03:07 AM
This is an age old "trick".  By leaving the felled tree with the leaves, the leave continue to draw the mosture out of the trunk through evapotransporation.  Fell it, sever it from the stump (you must interupt the sapwood) and leave it till the leave turn brown.  It works well.  I have also had some success girdling the tree, again you must sever the sap wood.

I watched the leaves on the felled trees until they were dry enough that I could crumble them into little pieces. I am trying to have 5 or 6 cords of hardwood ready for the winter, 90% sugar maple and white birch, 10% other.... So this helps the case quite a bit.

What's girdling???
60 acre woodlot, 455 rancher husqavarna, MS660 stihl, 196? Massey ferguson farm tractor with three point hitch, Granberg Mark III Alaskan CSM, Sierra 1500

CTYank

Quote from: jwillett2009 on June 22, 2012, 08:03:52 PM
Quote from: stumper on June 22, 2012, 10:03:07 AM
This is an age old "trick".  By leaving the felled tree with the leaves, the leave continue to draw the mosture out of the trunk through evapotransporation.  Fell it, sever it from the stump (you must interupt the sapwood) and leave it till the leave turn brown.  It works well.  I have also had some success girdling the tree, again you must sever the sap wood.

I watched the leaves on the felled trees until they were dry enough that I could crumble them into little pieces. I am trying to have 5 or 6 cords of hardwood ready for the winter, 90% sugar maple and white birch, 10% other.... So this helps the case quite a bit.

What's girdling???

"Girdling" is the cutting of a deep groove around the base of a tree stem, deep enough to completely sever the phloem, the layer of tissue that transports water and nutrients from the roots up the tree. Lets it start drying up above while still standing.

IIRC, there have been numerous studies done on the OP's conjecture about leaving downed tree un-limbed and un-bucked until leaves dry. They all concluded that this did NOT help drying the wood.

Much better to get it bucked & limbed, split and stacked ASAP, or fell it before winter waned.
'72 blue Homelite 150
Echo 315, SRM-200DA
Poulan 2400, PP5020, PP4218
RedMax GZ4000, "Mac" 35 cc, Dolmar PS-6100
Husqy 576XP-AT
Tanaka 260 PF Polesaw, TBC-270PFD, ECS-3351B
Mix of mauls
Morso 7110

Full Chisel

This time I'm going with the tree sucks the gum back into the trunk, it cures and dries slower yet a better cure. It has chlorophyll and other chemical composition to keep it, "alive" longer.

Just like cutting a flower and leaving the leaves on till it goes in the vase. It preserves the flower, because it dies slower.

My chips are on the opposite theory than O-P.
Jed: Jethro, how's come they ain't no ice in Kali Forni-a?

Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

SwampDonkey

Quote from: CTYank on June 22, 2012, 09:58:44 PM
"Girdling" is the cutting of a deep groove around the base of a tree stem, deep enough to completely sever the phloem, the layer of tissue that transports water and nutrients from the roots up the tree. Lets it start drying up above while still standing.

Xylem is to the inside of the cambium toward the pith, it conducts water and minerals and structural support. Phloem is between cambium and dead outter bark which carries photosynthates like sugar in water solution. Live xylem wood is the sapwood which also serves to store photosynthates. It becomes heartwood when extractives are stored and we most often see a color change. The live inner bark is the phloem.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

jwillett2009

My woodlot is young Acadian forest so probably wouldn't be a tree big enough to girdle.

I will definitely knock down my wood and let the leaves dry, especially if I'm late like this year. I just moved here last year and didn't really get out in the woods until last fall.... So I'm in a bit of a crunch to get wood ready for this winter.

As for the studies, I think I've got a pretty conclusive one. Of those trees that I left in the woods.... Well, I hung one up felling it so I needed to cut a couple pieces off the bottom to get in down. Those pieces are "greener" than the rest of the tree that dried with leaves on.

I work as a technologist, so I have an open mind. I know there are lots of variables in an experiment so I'll continue to get an eye on what I do. In the meantime, im convinced it worked.
60 acre woodlot, 455 rancher husqavarna, MS660 stihl, 196? Massey ferguson farm tractor with three point hitch, Granberg Mark III Alaskan CSM, Sierra 1500

pineywoods

I'm with jwillet, and I'll add another piece to the study. I just finished putting up my winters supply of red oak firewood. I dropped 2 nice 16 inch red oaks and left them lay untill the leaves dried, then snaked the logs out to a hayfield. when I started cutting and splitting, the further up the trunk I went, the drier the wood. The limbs were bone dry...Might not work the same on all species, but on red oak, it makes a big difference. 
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

SwampDonkey

I know it must draw some moisture because we often times would cut in the winter and haul out whole tree (limbs and all) and the tops would leaf out in the spring before we got to bucking. Farming to get the crops in came before gathering up the firewood. Had to be moisture coming from the wood. This would be rock maple. Leaves would be about 1/2 way grown before stuff would stop, but they stayed alive for quite a little while. Also the trees would be in tall hay, not like being on gravel road or a cement slab.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Al_Smith

You gird a tree trust me it will be dead in short order. It was an old method they used in pioneer days that kind of let the tree dry standing up.

woodmills1

I thought girdling was that funny white thing I found in the dryer once that momma said wasn to makin her lokka slimmer
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Paul_H

Wasn't that an old commercial? "my girdling is killing trees" ?
Science isn't meant to be trusted it's to be tested

stumper

I like the girdling in that it keeps the tree off the ground.  Therefore out of my way and not picking up moisture from the ground.

One thing to remember when girdling is the you are cutting through the outer strongest portion of the tree.  I suggset you not girdle in the same location on the trunk as you make your felling cuts.  So for me that means I girdle at a little better then 3 feet in height.  I normally block my firewood to 18 inches in length, and may my felling cut one block up, so I girdle 2 blocks up.  I have tried girdling one block up and felling two but it is not comfortable for me to do so.

This is off suject but to save questions.  I fell one block up to save my back.  I am at a better height to make my felling cuts and drive my wedges, and limb the tree, not to mention it is easier to make my excape from the higher standing position.  I then generally mark my cuts on the way out limbing to about the half way point.  Afer I am done limbing I cut the stem in half at my last mark.  Any firewood I cut out of the limbs and the lowest block fire wood gets thrown into the bucket of the tractor.  This results in a lower stump as I do not need the height of the up cut for the notch as well.  My small tractor can generally can only skid two trees at a time so skidding four half trees is easier on my ground, easier on my tractor and easier on saw bucking cleaner wood.  I honestly have not seen a big difference but I also tell myself that loading the bucket puts more weight on the front tires for better steering and better distribution of my tractive force.


muddstopper

I too am agreeing with the OP assessment of drying faster with leafs on. I would never consider myself a professional logger, but growing up we cut pulp wood year round and loaded by hand. At that time everything was sold according to scale. When ever we had a large job to cut, we would lay as much wood on the ground as we could before we cut it up into 5ft lengths. There is no doubt in my mind that the trees that lay there until the leaves where wilted where a lot lighter than the trees we freshly cut. Now, I never checked the wood with anykind of moisture meter, but my back always told me the longer the wood laid with the top still on, the lighter it would be to lift on the back of the old ton truck.

John Mc

For most species I've experimented on, leaving the leaves on does dry faster than limbing and leaving the trunk at tree length.  It does not dry as fast as just cutting, splitting, and stacking in the sun and wind right from the get-go.

If I think I might not get back to it for a while, I leave the leaves on.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

tyb525

I think there are so many variables in this equation it is impossible to assess whether it is true on not. It is very dependent on species, time of year, weather, temperature, etc. And since it would be impossible to exactly replicate conditions multiple times, I don't think it could ever be concluded to be true or false. Some conditions could make the wood dry faster than others.

Kind of like cutting hard maple on a full moon so it won't stain. Fact or not? I don't know. Does it work? Some say it does.

If it works for you then it works for you :)
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

John Mc

It is amazing the number of conflicting stories about splitting and drying firewood. Split frozen, don't split frozen. Split fresh cut, split when seasoned. Split "top down" or split "bottom up".
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

doctorb

I was looking to run an experiment and mentioned it here a year or two ago.

I will try to find a tree with a trunk which splits into two close to the ground.  I will cut each trunk off at its base, leaving two separate but hopefully equal portions of the same tree.  I can't account for diffeences in root system supplying each trunk, or potential environmental differences such as moisture and sunlight exposure between the two.

I would then cut each trunk a few feet higher, split the wood and measure the water content.  Assuming these are equal in both truncks, then I would limb and split one side, and leave the other untouched for a few weeks / months???  I think that this experiment will demonstrate if limbing a felled tree has a measureable effect on drying of the wood. 

Comments or suggestions for the experiment?
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Gary_C

How do you plan to measure the moisture content?

Hand held moisture meters are inaccurate at moisture levels above the fiber saturation point (30+ percent) and only measure the surface moisture anyway. You can get a more accurate measure of the interior moisture by driving pins into the sample, but again conductivity readings are not good above the fiber saturation point.

So the only reliable way to measure moisture content above the fiber saturation point is the oven dry method. So unless you have a good accurate scale and oven (think autoclave) at work, you better prepare your wife to having you take over her oven at home.

Other than that, and finding similiar places on the two halves to cut samples, and bagging the samples till you weight them, should work good.

Confucius Say
A man with one watch always knows what time it is, but a man with two watches is never quite sure.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

doctorb

I was going to use my hand-held moisture meter for the measurements.  I don't think the initial meansurmenets are particularly important, and i understand the innaccuracy of my meter at high levels of moisture content.  What would be meaningful will be the measurements at 6 months, 9 months and a year.  If there is a significant difference betwen the two halves of the tree at those later dates, then leaving the limbs in place may have a hastening effect on drying the wood.  If the moisture measurements are the same, then the hypothesis that leaving the limbs on for quicker drying would seem to not be a true. As the wood won't be ready for burning for months after the live tree is felled, I am not sure that the early measurements (4 weeks) make any difference.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

beenthere

I thought the OP was suggesting leaving the leaves attached to draw/suck the moisture out of the limbs/trunk. ??

If that is the case, then measuring moisture in the wood between the two treatments immediately and over the first few weeks (until the leaves are dried up and no longer able to draw moisture) would be the goal. After that time, seems the wood from the two treatments could be cut into firewood (treated alike) and monitored for drying times/rates to observe any meaningful differences.

OR... is the objective to compare bucking the limbs immediately vs. a time delay before bucking on the drying rate and final moisture content?
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Gary_C

I had this wood leftover from a hardwood thinning back in 2007. There was about 150 cords of smaller red oak in 17 foot plus lengths and about 100 mbf of red oak and hard maple in larger diameter logs. The shorter logs in the foreground were low grade red oak.



 

Over the years since then, I have sold or cut up for firewood most of that wood and have found this as far as drying. Even today if you were to cut one of those logs and split for firewood, the centers of the log will be relatively wet or a darker red. You can actually see and feel the moisture. After the pieces are split, that internal moisture will flash or evaporate relatively fast (days) and the wood will burn well, just like it's dry.

So what I expect you will find if you could accurately measure the moisture content at different times as the logs dry, you will find the moisture content will vary depending on how far the particular place in the log is from the nearest outside surface with the cut ends drying the furthest into the logs. So you could probably conclude that the smallest diameter parts dry faster but do not actually wick any significant amounts from the larger diameters. And you could also find there is significant variation in the moisture depending on the location in the log. So much so that to draw any conclusion as to the differences in the two halves, limbs or not will be difficult.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

doctorb

Quote from: Gary_C on July 03, 2012, 12:15:11 PM
So what I expect you will find if you could accurately measure the moisture content at different times as the logs dry, you will find the moisture content will vary depending on how far the particular place in the log is from the nearest outside surface with the cut ends drying the furthest into the logs.

That is exactly what I find when testing my firewood.  I can take a 14" round which has a length of 24" and find moisture content to be quite variable when I split it.  When I measure close to the center of the log (diameter) the readings are higher than toward the periphery.  If I measure the center of the diameter of the log at the mid point of the length of the the log, it's the highest reading I will find.  In general, these readings can vary up to 5-6% from the driest reading on the periphery of the log.  However, this is in a fairly dry peice of wood, with a low H2O contnet of say 18%, and  a high of 24%. 

I think beenthere is correct, and I won't have any way of accurately determining a diofference in H2O contnet a few weeks from felling, as the moisture content will be still be very high.  So the question for me is whether such techniques can dissipate enough moisture to make a difference in drying time or not.  One month out, it may be significant in terms of statistical numbers, but it's still going to be green wood fo a long time.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

Gary_C

You could then also expect the places where limbs are cut off would also increase the moisture loss that could be far greater that the supposed wicking effect from the limbs losing moisture and drawing from the rest of the tree, which I think is just wishful thinking.

The more cuts the better.  :)
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Cypressstump

Girdling practices were used extensively during the logging of the virgin cypress trees in the Louisiana swamps. The lack of proper girdling is what makes a cypress log a sinker log. Guys were paid 20-40 cents day to go into the swamps and girdle the trees. Then usually the following year the logging operations would start up during the high waters in spring allowed for the trees to be felled and dragged out into rafts for transport to market. The poor guys trudging thru the swamps whacking on the trees did  not always girdle properly. Altho their Bossman might'a been  a bit angry to have them heavy logs sinking out of rafts, I,  for one am sorta' glad they were a bit lack on the whack !
Stump

Timberking 1220 25hp w/extensions -hard mounted
Case 586E 6k forklift
2001 F350 4X4,Arctic Cat 500 4 wheeler wagon hauler
Makita 6401 34",4800 Echo 20"er, and a professional 18" Poulan PRO , gotta be a 'pro' cuz it says so rite there on tha' saw..

beenthere

For an experiment to test leaf desication vs no-leaf, one might take two comparable size limbs (one with leaves and the other without).

Might place them on a 'balance' beam so they are at a balance point and then observe to see if the leaved-one loses more weight (being water) than the non-leaved one. Still tough to match samples as well as get the balance set up.
But weighing would be one way to monitor more moisture loss from the leaves (of which I don't sign onto but
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

beenthere

Quote from: Cypressstump on July 03, 2012, 12:49:22 PM
Girdling practices were used extensively during the logging of the virgin cypress trees in the Louisiana swamps. .......

Girdling the cypress, I understand, was also a way to "lay claim" to selected trees and mark them prior to the logging operation. Somewhat like is done now with marking paint.
As well, some species of trees will bleed a lot of moisture when girdled so would be good to help them float too.

Hope you get some pics of the log diving this week.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Jeff

I scanned this topic quickly to see if there was mention, and I didn't see it, so I think it is worth mentioning that if you live anywhere near an area that has oak wilt, you should be aware that by knocking down red oak trees while they are leafed out, or lets say, in a non-dormant state, that you are risking the entire stand to infection and then, certain death.
Just call me the midget doctor.
Forestry Forum Founder and Chief Cook and Bottle Washer.

Commercial circle sawmill sawyer in a past life for 25yrs.
Ezekiel 22:30

doctorb

Jeff-

I have not heard of oak wilt around here.  If we have it though, we are in for it.  The recent storms in the mid-atlantic knocked down all types of trees, but, and I don't know why this is, many were oak trees.  I have never seen so many oaks down from a storm in my life.  Maybe it's just the old neighborhoods that I drive through on the way to work, but the oaks appear to have been almost selectivley beaten by this wind.  Wierd.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

shelbycharger400

jeff...

neighbor next door has lost quite a few over the years to the wilt.
in the 5 years ive been here, all is still well except for one tree that dropped another branch today..did it 3 years ago too.   this fall ITS being dropped .  I have black/ black jack, and pin oak mostly with a few small pines and 3 or 4 ash trees.  and some maples too.

Worse case senario if it ever dose hit bad, i will buy 300 or so hybrid poplars , and a few pines .  by the time the poplar and white pine are getting firewood size i could regenerate hardwood saplings/ decent yard trees

muddstopper

Just cut one tree, then cut off one piece of firewood. Leave the rest of the tree and the cut piece of firewood lay where they fell until the tree leaves wilt. then cut off another piece of firewood and split along with the first piece that was cut off when the tree was felled. Compare the the 2 split pieces and see which is dryer. My money is on the piece that was left uncut when the tree was felled.

beenthere

Sounds like a plan.  8)

QuoteCompare the the 2 split pieces and see which is dryer.

How do you suggest measuring to "see" which is dryer?  I'm curious.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

doctorb

We see this same type of enigma in medical research all the time......

1). How can you accurately measure a difference between two things that are treated differently and...

2). Even if there is a measurable difference, what does it mean?

To me, both of these "samples" will still be way too green to burn (<20%MC), so any measurable difference is probably meaningless.
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

SwampDonkey

I trimmed some limbs off the box elder over the drive way on Sunday Morning. Hauled the limbs off and they stayed green for two days. Today they are brown and we had temps near 80 the last few days. They aren't drawing moisture now, but how much did the green leaves draw before wilt? Who knows. ;)
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Gary_C

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

stumper

One more thing to think about is just time management for the chopper.  I think most of us fall into the week end warrior class.  I know I do, so.......

If I go out and fell, limb, skid, block, split and stack a days worth of wood then come back next weekend and do the same.   I think everyone would aggree  it starts drying the day it is cut. 

On the other hand if I go out and fell or girdle a days worth of trees, then come back next week end and limb, skid, block, split, stack and fell or girdle next weekends wood.  I hope everyone aggrees that the work done the second weekend is equivalent to the work done in a day in my first senario.  The question then becomes "When does the wood start to dry?".  Assuming it starts to dry upon felling or girdling, regardless of the rate of drying, I am ahead of the game by that amount.

So to me the question then is simplified to "Does the wood start to dry upon felling, or not?".  My back tells me it does.

So Doc I would suggest this for an experiment:
1.  Fell the tree;
2.  Cut a cookie off the bottom;
3.  Weigh it;
4.  Dry it in a microwave or oven till completely dry or to a point that the moisture meter is accurate and weigh it again;
5.  Wait a week;
6.  Cut a cooking out of the tree away from the base of the tree;
7.  Weigh it;
8.  Dry it in a microwave or oven till completely dry or to a point that the moisture meter is accurate and weigh it again;
9.  Do the math.  Did the wood dry during the week?;
10.  Report finding here;
11.  Have a brew.  Yes, I feel that anything worth doing is improved with a brew, Coffee, Tea, or Beer it does not matter:

doctorb

Well thought out, stumper.  I do not have a scale that would be accurate enough to pull that off.  I could use the one in my boat for weighing fish....., but we all know they lie! ;D
My father once said, "This is my son who wanted to grow up and become a doctor.  So far, he's only become a doctor."

stumper

In that case just skip to step 11 ;D

muddstopper

I believe if the wood is going to be cut split and not used until the next season, it probably wont make any kind or very little difference in how well the wood has cured out. And if you are cutting wood in the fall when leaves are turning, with intentions of buring the wood that same season, you probably also wont see much if any difference. I also dont have any doubt that if the tree is cut green, and the limbs and leaves left on it until wilted and turning brown, that that wood will weigh less and contain less moisture than a similar tree cut the same day and then limbed and left laying on the ground for the same amount of time as the unlimbed tree. Will this make a difference 6 months or a year later when you get ready to burn the wood? To many things like temperature and humidity to get any type of accurate measurement. You put a dry sponge and a wet sponge out in a rain storm and they will both be equally wet when it stops raining. 

Full Chisel

Quote from: Jeff on July 03, 2012, 01:17:04 PM
I scanned this topic quickly to see if there was mention, and I didn't see it, so I think it is worth mentioning that if you live anywhere near an area that has oak wilt, you should be aware that by knocking down red oak trees while they are leafed out, or lets say, in a non-dormant state, that you are risking the entire stand to infection and then, certain death.

This is important to note, think about--practice sanitation. We see a lot of leafed out trees blow down in various stages of wilt. Trees are plants and they don't have an immune system. In most cases it's better to get the debris off the forest floor and don't take chances harboring disease pathogens (vectors). In simpler terms, get 'er dun.
Jed: Jethro, how's come they ain't no ice in Kali Forni-a?

Jethro: Don't look at me Uncle Jed. I didn't take it.

stavebuyer

I am curious if differences in growth rate and the ratio of sapwood to heartwood would influence drying rates in this type of experiment?

Al_Smith

A comment regarding red oak .If left in the log it will retain moisture for decades .

Sugar maple on the other hand will grow mushrooms after about two years .This is one variety you need to be very timely in processing either into firewood or lumber as be the case .Timely bucked and split it dries relatively quickley .

muddstopper

Quote from: Al_Smith on July 06, 2012, 10:36:49 AM
A comment regarding red oak .If left in the log it will retain moisture for decades .

I dont know if I completely agree with this statement. There are many species of oak that are mistakenly called red oak. We have Red oak, Black oak, White oak, Spanish oak, Pin oaks and probably several other species of oaks and most people here call oaks either red oak or white oak. In other words, what you are calling a red oak may or not be an actual red oak, I have no way of knowing. Non-the-less, any oak cut around here and left in a log lenght, on the ground, will be rottening with mushrooms and bark falling off in about a year. It will also contain more moisture than it did when it was first cut, and moisture content will vary with each rain event. Just like a sponge. Of course in the Smokey Mountains, our annual rain fall is only second to the Pacific Northwest and I am sure that will make a difference.

John Mc

I think Al knows what a Red Oak really is.  And we see the same thing around here... If you cut Red Oak (and yes, we have plenty of true Red Oak here), it takes forever to dry, and is rot resistant.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Al_Smith

I'm not certain if northern red oak and southern red oak is the same .The northern species although not as rot resistant as white oak can lay on the ground for decades .

Fact just yesterday I cut up a short red oak log I know for a fact had layed 10 years and it was solid as a rock .

Either species the northern red or white will deteriate the sap wood but the heart will be rock solid .

I had mentioned a time or two about in the early 80s' cutting into a white oak cull log they left behind from a cut made in 1937 .Rotted in about 3-4 inchs and the water ran out once into the heart wood with the saw .

Every so often people who go treasure hunting for old downed trees with chainsaw mills remark about finding some real gems once they saw into them .You can't tell what's inside until you cut it .

stumper

I agree red oak does not dry in log length and even in split firewood dries slow.

I had to buy a load of firewood this year and beleive it or not have been complaining a little, that there is too much red oak in the load (i know it is a terrible problem to have).  I need some of this wood to season for use in February and I know the oak will not. 

muddstopper

QuoteAmerican red oak (Quercus spp.)
Other names: Northern red oak, Southern red oak

   


Distribution
Widespread throughout Eastern USA. The oaks are by far the largest species group growing in the Eastern hardwood forests. Red oaks grow more abundantly than the white oaks. The red oak group comprises many species, of which about eight are commercial.


General description
The sapwood of red oak is white to light brown and the heartwood is a pinkish reddish brown. The wood is similar in general appearance to white oak, but with a slightly less pronounced figure due to the smaller rays. The wood is mostly straight grained, with a coarse texture. The red oak tree gets its name because of the colour of the leaves in the 'fall' (Autumn).


Working properties
Red oak machines well, nailing and screwing is good although pre-boring is recommended, and it can be stained and polished to a good finish. It dries slowly with a tendency to split and warp. It has a high shrinkage and can be susceptible to movement in performance.

     
Machining 
Nailing 
Screwing 
Gluing 
Finishing 



Physical properties
The wood is hard and heavy, with medium bending strength and stiffness and high crushing strength. It is very good for steam bending. Southern red oak has a more rapid growth than Northern red oak and tends to be harder and heavier.

Specific Gravity: a) 0.63 (12% M.C.) b) 0.68
Average Weight: a) 705 kg/m3 (12% M.C.) b) 753 kg/m3
Average Volumetric Shrinkage: a) 10.8 (Green to 6% M.C.) b) N/A
Modulus of Elasticity: a) 12,549 MPa b) 15,721 MPa
Hardness: a) 5738 N b) 6583 N
a) Quercus rubra (Northern red oak)
b) Quercus falcata (Southern red oak)


Durability
Rated slightly to non-resistant to heartwood decay, moderately easy to treat with preservatives.

Availability
USA: Abundant. Most widely used species.
Export: Good availability as lumber and veneer, but less than white oak. Red oak is often classified according to growing regions and marketed as Northern red oak, and Southern red oak.
And
QuoteThe northern red oak is one of the most important oaks for timber production in North America. The wood is of high value. Other related oaks are also cut and marketed as red oak, although their wood is not always of as high a quality. These include eastern black oak, scarlet oak, pin oak, Shumard oak, southern red oak and other species in the red oak group. Construction uses include flooring, veneer, interior trim, and furniture.

Red oak wood grain is so open that smoke can be blown through it from end-grain to end-grain on a flat-sawn board. For this reason, it is subject to moisture infiltration and is unsuitable for outdoor uses such as boatbuilding or exterior trim

Note the durability rateing of slightly to non resistant to heartwood decay.Also the open grain that allows moisture infiltration.

I believe most wood if kept saturated with water, will create an anerobic atomosphere that allows decaying microbes to close their pores, will last longer. Evidenced by all the quality timber that is being pulled from the bottom of lakes and swamps and sawn for their lumber. The open grain of the red oaks could be such an example of this, the wood acting as a sponge to soak up as much moisture as the wood can hold.  I'm just grasping at straws here and openly stateing my opinons, and dont feel strongly enough about the subject to start doing a googlefest of research to back up anything I have said, so take my statements for what they are worth, just my opinions only. 

Al_Smith

 Although not mentioned and only speculation on my part it could possibley be that certain enzymes and bacteria  cause a more rapid rotting situation .

It might be such a situation that what could be present in the Smokey Mountains might not be present in the vast farm country of north western  Ohio .

Another factor that might have something to do with it is this portion of Ohio was once known as the great black swamp .Nearly as vast at one time as the swamp lands of Lousiana minus the alligators .

It could possibley be that certain sub species within species could have genetically passed on certain traits regionally . That of course is speculation because what I know about plant bioligy would barely fill a shot glass if all info on the subject would overflow the Atlantic ocean .

Al_Smith

A little tip on that red oak firewood or any firewood .The smaller you split it the faster it dries .

For me it's not a big deal. I can let it dry 3-4 years if I have to because I've got so much .For others it could be a problem .

stumper

I am in hopes of not burning any of the oak in the upcoming heating season.  I needed 3 additional cord for this winter and bought an 8 cord load.  So I have been slinging the logs to the tractor bucket and carriing the oak to one spot and blocking it and all the other to the shed and blocking it there.  If I have more then 5 cords of oak (or less then 3 cords of other)  I'll either find time to cut some additional off my land or price some of my tree removal jobs such that I am more likely to get the wood. 

Just the Saturday I priced a job where I am cutting 4 trees but only removing the wood of two trees (one pick up load $50.00 for removal), so there is 1/3 to 1/2 cord I can work up for this winter as needed and could double the amount I remove and give the home owners a bonus if needed.

Thank You Sponsors!