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Author Topic: Boring a White Cedar  (Read 6478 times)

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Offline Kevin

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Boring a White Cedar
« on: March 20, 2004, 05:22:09 PM »
A few pictures from today ...

Removing the stress from a leaning --Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--.com/photo/74882584/126952134QRkGok

Offline Duane_Moore

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2004, 08:56:03 PM »
 8)Cool pictures Kevin. Keep it up.  like them  8) 8)Duh---Duane
village Idiot---   the cat fixers----  I am not a complete Idiot. some parts missing.

Offline rebocardo

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2004, 10:27:49 AM »
Cool pix, btw, love those tracks!

Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2004, 10:33:33 AM »
Me too!  :D
I can go deep woods now.  :D


Offline Hunter

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2004, 08:26:27 PM »
Thats a really nice rig. Is that an Argo or Max?
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2004, 04:08:00 AM »
Thanks, that's the Argo Conquest.

Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2004, 08:43:15 AM »
Hey Kevin,

That butt log appeared to have quite a bit of heart rot.

Are most of the trees your dealing with in similar condition ?

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Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 03:08:56 PM »
Many cedars on my property have that Stephen.
Any idea what causes it?
The ground is very wet.

Offline Frickman

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2004, 04:48:19 PM »
Kevin, why did you cut the stump so high? Was it because of the rot on the butt? Many times we have to cut a high stump in poplar to get good wood for a hinge. Then we cut it low after the tree is down.
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Offline Rocky_J

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2004, 05:23:22 PM »
For non-loggers, it is normally much easier to cut the notch above the root flare. This allows you to cut a smaller diameter at a more comfortable height without working as hard. Then come back and cut the stump off low without worrying about a tree falling at the same time.

Offline Corley5

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2004, 05:47:25 PM »
In the cedar swamp we worked in this winter heart rot was spotty.  There'd be a group of two to maybe six trees that had bad centers and the ones around them would be fine.  I cut all the big ones as low as I could as buyers are after big cedar with the butt flares still on them for use as porch posts etc.  If a tree was obviously bad it didn't matter and I cut it off where ever it was convenient.  High dollar timber should be cut as low as possible.  Whenever I cut any especially hard maple I cut it as close to the ground as I can.  It's worth too much to leave a two foot high stump
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2004, 06:41:34 PM »
That stump is about a foot off the ground just a little above the root flare.
The third picture down shows the end of the butt log with the root flare.
I dug out around the bottom of the tree with a shovel and couldn't cut much lower without running the saw in the snow.
If I leave too much of the root flare I just end up cutting it all off on the mill.
If this was a hardwood veneer log I would have used a humboldt notch instead of the conventional.
I'll go back in the Spring when the snow is gone and take the stumps right down to the ground.

Offline Frickman

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2004, 06:45:09 PM »
Thanks for the info Kevin.
If you're not broke down once in a while, you're not working hard enough

I'm not a hillbilly. I'm an "Appalachian American"

Retired  Conventional hand-felling logging operation with cable skidder and forwarder, Frick 01 handset sawmill

Pretend farmer when I have the time

Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2004, 11:31:13 PM »
Quote
Many cedars on my property have that Stephen.
Any idea what causes it?
The ground is very wet.


Most likely from the pics you have shown:

I would suspect Phaeolus schweinitzii known as Brown Cubical Butt Rot -or- Velvet Top Fungus.

Due to the reddish brown rot and yellow incipient staining seen in the logs from the downed pics.

This particular fungus can also work as a root rot, and under your wet soil conditions maybe doing so.

Other possibles:

Postia sericeomollis
aka. Oligoporus -or- Tyromyces balsameus
also known as ' Pocket Rot '

-also-

Poria subcida -aka- Perenniporia
also known as ' Stringy Butt Rot '. However, the extent of decay in your pics does not indicate this pathogen

I did not look closely at the species in your pic. I assume it to be Thuja occidentalis Northern White Cedar.  

Let me know if it is possibly Chamaecyparis thyoides Atlantic White Cedar. Not having worked or been in your neck of the woods. I went by native range for species availability.
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Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2004, 04:08:58 AM »
It's the Eastern White Cedar ...  arbor-vitae
http://www.domtar.com/arbre/english/p_thuya.htm

For a tree that is very rot resistant it sure doesn't stand up to heart decay.

Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2004, 08:18:19 AM »
That is the problem with species characteristics. Although they are described as disease resistant. Once in stress or hardship with an active pathogen (in an environment which favors the pathogen) they are just as susceptible as any other species.

Thuja occidentallis - Northern White Cedar is commonly known as arborvitae, and the tree pictured in the url you showed appears very similar to the ones I have showing Northern White Cedar.  Do you know if  EWC has a different cultivar name such as: Thuja xxxxxxxxx ?

Bark and leaves from these trees have been used for medicinal purposes for some time now. Bark is considered to be high in vitamin C.


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Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2004, 02:39:21 PM »
Quote
Do you know if  EWC has a different cultivar name such as: Thuja xxxxxxxxx ?


No, I'm sorry I don't.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2004, 04:17:35 PM »
On the topic on disease resistance:

I don't know of any NA species any more resistant to decay than Yellow Cypress C. Nootkatensis. We had to cruise even the dead fallen cypress for volume. The sap wood would be pretty much shot, but the heartwood was just fine. Chop into it with an axe and it smelled as if you just cut a green one. I seen the odd cypress that would look like just a stub standing there and you step around the back side of the tree (is there a backside on a tree? :D) and there'd be a strip of bark up the side of the tree for 100 feet supporting life. Or you might find a tree that the remaining bark stripped away from a stub and still supporting life. I think the quickest way to break yellow cypress down is by fire. Red cedar is pretty resiliant too, we've found CMT's (culturally modified trees) which were sometimes felled trees with partial excavations for canoes or carved totems. For some reason the natives would leave the tree without finishing it into a canoe or totem. Anyway some of those trees were cut 400 years ago, most only 80 - 150 years. We were also on an old burnt cedar forest cruising dead red cedar for volume along with 40 year old spruce and hemlock regen errm :-/ . That's where we needed the two 7.5 meter d-tapes to measure around the diameters. :D Well they called them dead veteren trees and they had merchantable volume. ;)


cheers
Move'n on.

Offline slowzuki

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2004, 06:46:08 PM »
Thuja occidentalis L.

The full name for eastern white cedar.  I don't know if the L sets it apart from white or not.

Our property is covered in them.  The butt rot is sort of random as well. Some will grow large tall and straight, be solid through.  Others are looking like old cedar fence rails before they even come down!

A neighbour tells me the cedar rail fence that runs all the way around our property looks the same now as it did in 1940.  He said everyone had miles and miles of that fence running everywhere.  Must have been a pile of cedars here at one time!

Quote
Thuja occidentallis - Northern White Cedar is commonly known as arborvitae, and the tree pictured in the url you showed appears very similar to the ones I have showing Northern White Cedar.  Do you know if  EWC has a different cultivar name such as: Thuja xxxxxxxxx ?



Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2004, 02:50:19 AM »
slowzuki:

The L. is the authority , whom is Carolus  Linnaeus, 1707-1778, Swedish botanist. If the authority is in brachets (L.) followed by a name like  Rich. it means that the nominaclature has been changed by another authority "Rich." from the orginal classification done by Linnaeus. Example: bald cypress Taxodium distichum (L.) Rich.

cheers
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Offline VK540_1

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2004, 05:28:08 AM »
Just wondering what is removing stress. When do you know a tree is stressed, how do you remove it, what happens if you don't remove it. I've been recreational logging for years cutting mostly white cedar to be band sawed, but never heard of removing stress from a tree before felling it.

Offline FeltzE

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2004, 05:37:08 AM »
Well the first step in removing stress is talking to it... Take a chair, a radio and tune in to an easy listening station and talk quietyly to the tree in soothing tones.

:P

If a branch snaps off and swipes you across the head, try a different station and sit farther away....it's not working. ::)

Offline VK540_1

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2004, 05:42:43 AM »
LOL  :DThat won't work, only have 1 radio station up here.

Offline Kevin

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2004, 02:33:14 PM »
VK;
Welcome to the forum.
Any leaning tree has stress, compression wood on the leaning side and tension wood on the back side.
The stress is caused from all the weight of the tree being off center.
If you make your notch and start in with your back cut the tree will split out and cause a barberchair which ruins the wood and could bring your life to an abrupt end.
That's the reason for bore cutting the tree after placing the notch and removing most of the wood on the inside prior to pulling out the bar and cutting the narrow strap of wood at the rear which is holding the tree and keeping it from falling.

Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2004, 02:12:11 AM »
Did a little more taxonomy study

Dirr, records Thuja occidentalis as:  Eastern Arbovitae, American Arbovitae, White Cedar and Northern Arbovitae.

So any combination of the above common names could be accepted as describing the species.

Other nomenclature such as symbols depicting, elevation, climate, soil characteristics and other influences may be found in forest nursery stock or forest reports. Showing differences in growing mediums of these plants and the growth changes resulting or difficulty in working with the wood.

So Kevin,.........Eastern White Cedar is most likely the same as Northern White Cedar.


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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2004, 03:09:21 AM »
Stephen:

In University we were taught that the common name was eastern white cedar abreviated as Ce. No mention of northern white cedar here. We studied both eastern and western commercial tree species in Canada and we have all the species common to the northern half of the US as well, except some of the hickories. I know if you get your hands on the book called 'Native Trees of Canada' there are different common names, such as Arbor-vitae. Our professor was as strict on common names as the latin ones. I know there is a eastern red cedar, I've seen it in pasture land in Virginia. And that Virginia pine has subtle differences from our jack pine.

cheers
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Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2004, 04:08:25 AM »
Hi Swamp,

Prof's are good at demanding 'one description' . However, there is always more than one Prof. :D :D

I accept your description - now being it is your neck of the woods.  What do we do with the common name of: "Northern White Cedar' bind it to the trees - North of where?

Is the hyphen proper taxonomy on ' Arbor-vitae' ?
All my references show 'Arborvitae'.   ( ' Tree-White' )

I know Douglas-fir is the proper form indicating 'false'  fir.
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Offline tony_marks

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #27 on: March 26, 2004, 10:54:15 AM »
usually when i see that center rot i blame it on ants as they are usually still in the tree.. altho i would think cedar would be a bug repellent . i see this in oak an such,more.
i mite add if u fellows ever have a situation where u cant get rid of fleas ...try cedar shavings. i  raised an bred pit bulls for yrs. i had a mutant flea on my place that would use seven dust for building and just enjoyed the bath if i dipped the dogs... but cedar shavings put them on the run. :)

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2004, 11:41:29 AM »
Quote
Hi Swamp,

Prof's are good at demanding 'one description' . However, there is always more than one Prof. :D :D

I accept your description - now being it is your neck of the woods.  What do we do with the common name of: "Northern White Cedar' bind it to the trees - North of where?

Is the hyphen proper taxonomy on ' Arbor-vitae' ?
All my references show 'Arborvitae'.   ( ' Tree-White' )

I know Douglas-fir is the proper form indicating 'false'  fir.


Stephen:

I was only relaying my experience while having to study dendrology under an old mizer for detail. I think the local common name rules the day, regardless of any professor's view point. There are some folks that call Tulip tree , Tulip poplar......its not even a poplar, the flower doesn't even resemble a tulip either, but the leaves are kinda the shape of a tulip blossum. But, I'm not anyone to argue with it. I think we all know what tree we are talking about, so it doesn't matter, least of all to me. :)

Harlow, Harrar and White call it Northern white-cedar; eastern arborvitae in "Textbook of Dendrology" in the Maritimes we call it eastern white cedar. As long as we know the latin, doesn't really matter. I don't know the significance of calling it northern since there probably isn't a southern white cedar, and after all its an eastern tree species. Take it from there.  :)

What about yellow cypress? Shouldn't it be yellow-cypress? Since, its not a true cypress. Another name for it is Alaskan Cedar and its not a true cedar either. Isn't it fun? ;)  We also call eastern larch, tamarack. Before I went to Forestry school it was tamarack and its still tamarack no matter how much the professor tried to convince us otherwise. :D :D

cheers
Move'n on.

Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2004, 03:59:52 PM »
Swamp D.,

Folks out here will also call Western Larch - Tamarack.  
Yes looking at botanical and common names is somewhat fun.  ;)

It is sometimes interesting to read the arguments for taxonomy derisions. But, personally I think it is a waste of time as the majority will only know or need to know of a common name. Besides people are quick to adapt.......after all this conversation has convinced me that the trees you have are Eastern White Cedar.

Note the botanical etymology of Thuja occidentalis is:
Tree-White Western now is'nt that interesting  :D  
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2004, 04:22:38 PM »
Stephen:

Blame it on the Swedes, darn Linnaeus   :D :D

I wonder who Richard was, the guy that debunked Linnaeus on the bald cypress taxonomy. I got some reference to an English priest/botonist in one web search. There has even been more recent changes like black cottonwood used to be populous balsamifera var. tricocarpa now the balsamifera is dropped and balsam poplar was populous balsamifera var. balsamifera   hmmmm I can't even tell the difference aside from the size difference at maturity.
All I know is that around here, when you clearcut a cedar stand it gets over run by balsam poplar and as time goes by the cedar grows up underneath and the poplar dies out and you've got mature cedar, maybe with black or white spruce, white birch, yellow birch, red maple, aspen and ash. I was on a woodlot all this week that had the black spruce mixed with the cedar and on my lot its white spruce regenerating with the cedar. Now my lot has alot of black spruce (50 acres of it) but its been transplanted there. When I see the growth rate and girth of the natural white spruce I wonder what we were thinking to plant that slow growing black spruce :D :D Well I had nothing to do with it actually, it was father's preference or the available planting stock at the time. And I was climbing mountains 4000 miles away on the other coast.  shrug

:D
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Offline woodbeard

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2004, 04:36:26 AM »
I had one red cedar that was very stressed, so I sat down and told it the story of my life.
Talk about boring a cedar- it laid right down and fell asleep
Didn't even have to start up my chainsaw.

Offline oldsaw-addict

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2004, 03:14:46 PM »
 :D :D :D :D :D :D  I just read your reply Woodbeard, I cant stop rolling around on the floor laughing. :D :D :D :D
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Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2004, 09:54:54 PM »
Swamp D,

Ifn, ya find out who 'Richard' was tell him he needs to take a dendro class that includes looking as well as reading.

I had not heard of the recent taxonomy changes including 'balsamifera'.  Does not surprise me though.  Got the same problem with argumentative botanical names of  fungus pathogens. e.g. Poria, Penniporia, Porus, etc.

Becoming immuned to it......kinda a like those letters that you read in which the first and the last letter are correct, but everything in between is misspelled.  One can still get the jest of the writer.

Is the Poplar acting as a phytoremediator ? What's the generation rotation of  cedar - poplar - cedar? (60 years +....)

What mountains were you climbing 4000 miles from home ???
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Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2004, 09:57:14 PM »
Quote
I had one red cedar that was very stressed, so I sat down and told it the story of my life.
Talk about boring a cedar- it laid right down and fell asleep
Didn't even have to start up my chainsaw.


Hey Woodbeard,

That is o.k.............you would not have got the chainsaw started either. It went into hybernation long before the tree laid down.  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2004, 01:20:42 PM »
Stephen:

I'm pretty sure Richard is long expired, so that the point is mute. ;)

And fungi such as Sirococus conigenus was strobilinus which has devistated red pine plantations in Nova Scotia. Its a shoot blight. I'm convinced that it has infected my ornamental red pine tree in the back yard. The leader was killed 3 years ago and the stem is being attacked by sap suckers. All my other red pine which are indiginous to New Brunswick and Ottawa valley in Ontario are disease free. I suspect the seed source of the ornamental red pine was from Minnesota which is what NS plantations were established from. In NB our red pine plantations have been doing really well especially on adandoned farmland.  In NS their red pine plantations are from seed sources not indiginous to NS because our natural pine is not a good seeder in this region. Well, so i've been told by a guy from Herrington tree nursey. His credibility has since come into question by me and others. ;)


Oh, the mountains I was climbing were on the Queen Charlotte Islands off the BC Coast, Sommerville Island off the Alaskan Pan handle, and Coast Mountains near Meziadin Junction in BC and not far from Stewart, BC and Hyder, Alaska. Ever get Hyderized? :)

Balsam poplar generally invades a cedar clear cut the first couple seasons and grows 1 to 2 meters a year for the first 10-15 years, then 0.3-0.5 m there after. Cedar grows slow as you know but its a prolific seeder, some sites spruce establishes well and of course balsam fir. But the poplar and fir generally grow 80-110 years here, shorter life span to the south (60-90). Cedar is of course very shade tolerant and generally will dominate by 100 years of age and will grow to an age of 180- 250 years around here. Spruce will begin to die out of a cedar stand at age 150 or less, depending on drainage. Mature fir will be long gone by age 80, but will sometimes carpet the understory if the drainage isn't too poor. So, basically the cycle will be around 90 years for cedar to dominate the stand again. If its a good cedar site yellow birch and white ash will be common. Sometimes instead of balsam poplar you have trembling aspen or large toothed aspen, but they are on the dryer cedar sites. I could take some pictures of different development stages this week and post them, to give you an idea of the progression. The woods here now are getting pretty sloppy with temps in the upper 40's and mid 50's. There's not going to be much snow here in a weeks time and its going to be a really dry spring unfortunately.

cheers
Move'n on.

Offline Stephen_Wiley

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Re: Boring a White Cedar
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2004, 05:51:09 AM »
Swamp D.:

Pics, would be great - I enjoy seeing stand rotation and development. Also like seeing flora differentiating  with dry - wet stands.

Although not a common problem, I have discovered Sirococus spp. on a few landscape trees out here in the PNW. Coverage was over 80% of the trees infecting mostly new shoot growth.

I think you have good cause to question your Nurseryman's source.  Since your NB red pines are doing well.

No, I have not got Hyderized !  Got friends up that way, who I am sure would want to introduce me to the term.


" If I were two faced, do you think I would be wearing this one?"   Abe Lincoln


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