The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems




Author Topic: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING  (Read 17477 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« on: March 11, 2013, 10:03:08 AM »
I am making some pegs for my FIRST timber frame I plan to build this spring/summer.  I am using red oak because of this is readily available.  Starting with a straight grain block

  
I split off a piece to then split off smaller pieces down to about 1 1/2 inch square.  From there I went to the shave horse and sized to fit through a 1 1/8" hole in the seat of the shave horse.  I want to end with a peg to drive into a 1" hole in a 8" square beam.

  

  
 After making several pegs and realizing how much work is involved,  I decided to try something else to speed up the process. 

    
     Starting with the rived piece from the main block as before,  I  used a jointer to get two sides flat and 90 degrees to each other.  Off to the band saw to resaw 1" square pieces and then using a router with a 1" round over bit to end up with a peg that I can trim off the square ends and taper the peg to fit through the 1 1/8" hole.

  Because I won't be using these pegs for several months,  should I air dry the pegs at this point and then size to fit a 1" hole just before needed?  Is the 1 1/8" green size ok for now?

I have some peg blanks that have both heartwood and cambia layer, can these be used for timber frame assembly or should I use only heartwood?

When I am ready to drive pegs into the frame, what lubricant should I use, if any?

Thanks for your comments and help with this part of the process.  I am new to timber framing and want to learn how to do it right.
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7367
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 10:24:05 AM »
Your process look ok.

Recently, the latest issue of "Timber Framing" #107 had an article about making pegs.
You may want to purchase this issue if you want to read it. You should be able to do so through the TFG (timber framer guild) online store.

I wouldn't use anything but heartwood.

The taper doesn't need to be much only the last few inches, what will be outside the timber after it is driven home.
That way the full width of the peg is inside the entire timber.

No lube should be needed.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 10:51:57 AM »
Hello,

Your concept is sound,  is it better than just hand made, that is (has been) debatable.  I don't think it makes much difference as long as the stock is riven.  We use a table saw.  Jim's advice is good, try and get that article it is very educational.

One thing I noted, is you had your draw knife upside down for the work you were doing on the body of the peg.  I know many folks that use it that way, (rough style) and if it works for you, so be it, don't change.  I know more folks that use them "rough" than "smooth style."  Held they way you had it is for "rough" or fast cut of the tapper at the end.  It cuts much more aggressively with the bevel up and "smooth" with the bevel down, which is the majority of the time how it should be used, at least from the position of ease of use (traditional), and fatigue. 

We rough them out of the bolt sections, (no cambium-sap wood) and dry them from there.  Then prior to used, we shape them on a table saw down to an octagon shape, if we are using round pegs.  They seat well without further rounding, but that is a taste/style and routered round is just fine.  We soak ours in oil/beeswax the night before placement in the frame.  Some will store there blanks in oil after drying and there very well maybe something to be said for that extra care.  I noted less issue with the pegs treated with such care.  The Amish I worked with kept them in large wood barrels, then prior to insertion, slathered them in "grease" as they called it.  Smell like lanolin and beeswax.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 03:30:58 PM »
Jim,
     Thanks for the reply and the info regarding the article in "Timber Framing".  I ordered a subscription today.

Stan
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 03:42:23 PM »
Jay, 

Thanks for the information and explaining different techniques you have used and observed.  i'll experiment with the pegs I made and see what "works" with the timbers I make and assemble.

Could you tell this was the first time I used a drawknife?  I tried smoothing some pegs with the other side and it is easier to use that way.  I don't have to finesse the blade as much as when I used it "upside down"

I sorted out the pegs I had with sap wood.  I didn't think they would be as strong.

Thanks for your reply.

Stan
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline beenthere

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26932
  • Location: Southern Wisconsin, USA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2013, 04:06:44 PM »
Quote
I sorted out the pegs I had with sap wood.  I didn't think they would be as strong.

Must be a good reason other than strength that negates the use of sapwood for pegs.
Essentially no difference in mechanical properties between heartwood and sapwood.

Possibly less decay resistance?  less resistance to powder post beetles? ??
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Dodgy Loner

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3141
  • Age: 36
  • Location: Fernandina Beach, FL
  • Gender: Male
  • It's an anagram for "dendrology" and in no way a reflection of my personality
    • Share Post
    • My Blog: A Riving Home
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2013, 04:52:01 PM »
One thing I noted, is you had your draw knife upside down for the work you were doing on the body of the peg.  I know many folks that use it that way, (rough style) and if it works for you, so be it, don't change.  I know more folks that use them "rough" than "smooth style."  Held they way you had it is for "rough" or fast cut of the tapper at the end.  It cuts much more aggressively with the bevel up and "smooth" with the bevel down, which is the majority of the time how it should be used, at least from the position of ease of use (traditional), and fatigue. 

Jay, whether to use a drawknife bevel up or bevel downs depends as much on the cant of the handles and the shape of the back as it does on whether you are going for a fine cut or a coarse one. I have two drawknives - one is designed to be used bevel down and one bevel up. I prefer the bevel-up drawknife, because I have much more control with it for fine work. The back is not quite flat, but rounded just the slightest bit so the blade doesn't dive in as you're using it. When I use the bevel-down drawknife, I do just as you suggest and turn it bevel up for hogging off big pieces, then flip it bevel down for more finesse. But usually I use a spokeshave to do the final finessing anyway, so I don't use it bevel down a whole lot.

The drawknife that Stan is using does appear to be a "bevel-down" drawknife, but it could easily be converted to a bevel-up drawknife by rounding the back a bid and bending the handles downward a tad.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey." -John Ruskin

Any idiot can write a woodworking blog. Here's mine.

Offline jander3

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 636
  • Age: 59
  • Location: Red Wing, Minnesota
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Anderson TimberWorks
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2013, 05:24:50 PM »
I find that a shaving horse and draw-knife works very well.  I cut 1" x 1" Red Oak blanks on the saw mill and then throw them in a tub of water for a day or two.  For cutting them, just take a touch of each corner (octagon shape) and shave the end for draw pinning.  It only take  a minute or two per peg. 

Don't worry about making them round just test fit the octagon shaped peg (I have a 1" hole drilled in the shaving horse for this job).  The edges will bite when you install the pegs.


 

 


Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2013, 07:36:53 PM »
Jander,

Nice work !  ;D I like octagon too.

DL,

I thought the same thing when I was younger, but got correct more than once by the Amish I worked with, then watching "Wheel Wrights," "Coopers" and "Bodgers," I started to key into the subtitles of "draw-knife" work.  I agree that the handle does determine the "cut" off the draw-knife, but they are still suppose to be used bevel down for fine work, and bevel up for rough.  The one Cooper laughed when I asked him about it, saying he had always "done it the wrong way, now there is no hope for him."  :D :D Which speaks to the fact that muscle memory and training can go a long way with hand tools.  :)

I can use most draw-knives just like a spoke shave, but I agree for those that don't or haven't used them extensively, spoke shaves are the way to go.  They are great for peg making too.

Stan,

You looked fine, it's not a big issue about draw knives, more of an FYI then see what works best for you.  As for sap wood to heart, same strength generally once dry, but there is a differential between the two.  It also has the starches that react differently to environmental elements from temperature, compression in pounding them in, and of course, the buggies.  One way to think of it is like in bow making, they have different properties,  Sapwood works better in tension and heartwood better in compression.



"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline rmawhinney

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2013, 11:17:51 AM »
Hey guys I have cleared the lot for my house and have a bunch of wild cherry. would that be suitable for making pegs from. Other than that I have maple and birch readily available. Anything else I may have to buy.

Also should the pegs be roughly an 1/8 inch larger than the holes? I am just thinking an 1/8th inch larger  peg and an 1/8th inch offset of the holes seems problematic.


Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2013, 11:45:23 AM »
Hello RMAWhinney,

Of those those 3 species, I would go with (in order) Birch, Maple, Cherry.  It really depends on grain straightness.  If the Cherry yields the straightest grain, then that is what I would go with.

As for sizing, I'm not sure where you got the "1/8" larger" from, a peg should be the same size as the hole it is intended for.  Slightly smaller is acceptable, but not larger.  The offset, for drawing is 1/8" but that is better achieved with a steel draw pin first then a peg is driven in.  Now, maybe you got confused about the "blanks" you rive from a bolt section.  They should be 1/8" less than twice the diameter of the intended peg hole, roughly, as a rule of thumb in general.    (1 7/8" blank=4 Pegs @ 1")

With splitting just about anything, (wood, stone, etc,) it is usually a matter of halving the object down to the size
you want.

Also, note this is a general guide line, not a hard fast rule.  If your peg creation process works for you and yields nice strait grain pegs, then all is good.

Hope that helps, (and now makes sense  :)  :D)

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline timberwrestler

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2013, 11:26:48 AM »
Stan,

My thought is that your blanks are way to big, and your spending too much time on the shave horse.  For example, we often use 13/16 pegs.  So we lay out a 1.5" grid on the top of the stock, and split those out.  Those 1.5 x 1.5" chunks are quartered by eye, giving roughly 3/4 x 3/4.  Remember the peg diameter is on the diagonal of that 3/4.  The piece is straightened and cleaned up quickly to a square, then the corners are knocked off with the drawknife.  Taper the tip, check it, and it's done.

I believe what Jay meant is that for 1" pegs, the 1 7/8" square blanks are quartered, and then shaved.  I think, that's what I do.

Brad

Offline S.Hyland

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Allegany County New York
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • My business website...
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2013, 12:14:31 PM »
Jay, I was wondering about the 1 7/8" blank too. I've made my blanks a bit larger than the desired peg size so far. It would think that quartering a 1 7/8" square would be too tight for 4 pegs? I haven't had much direct experience of other people's methods and have just been winging it, so I would love some clarification. Thanks.
It may be that when we no longer know which way to go that we have come to our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings.
― Wendell Berry

Offline S.Hyland

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Allegany County New York
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • My business website...
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2013, 12:18:38 PM »
I should clarify... I've been making blanks that were oversized by a 1/16  to an 1/8. and then shaving them down to an inch. I sounds like I could make the blanks a bit smaller and save some time. I guess I'll have to mess with it...
It may be that when we no longer know which way to go that we have come to our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings.
― Wendell Berry

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 01:24:57 PM »
Thank's Brad and Sean, for saving me from poor editing... ::)  I'll go back and fix it.

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline jueston

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 875
  • Age: 32
  • Location: St. Paul MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2013, 05:12:47 PM »
at the recent timber framing conference they did some examples of pulling joints apart to test there strength and which part of the joint failed first. it was the expectation of the PHD engineer that the relish would break free before the peg or the mortise would fail, but in all but one or two tests it was the peg that failed first.

the peg bent in the middle forming a V shape and would then allow the tenon to slide out of the mortise, it created a great deal of friction while trying to slide out of the mortise and many of the joints maintained full strength until the test was stopped, short of actually removing the tenon from the mortise.

so with that, even though most of the joints surpassed there expected physical limits, it seems that we should pay more attention to the pegs, the pegs they were using were red oak turned on a lathe and all seemed to have pretty straight grain.

and i should mention all the tests were of joints in tension, in a well made frame design, joints in tension are minimized while joints in compression are used as often as possible, since they are generally stronger.

i will also share a comment from the engineer which i know jay will enjoy, and i found very interesting. after examining an example of Gryndbygg-style timber framing from Norway which is quite primitive and very true to its ancient roots he said "i don't know what we have been doing for the last thousand years, because it seems like they had it all figured out when they designed this style of framing"(i am paraphrasing, that's not an exact quote) almost every joint was in compression, everything was held by gravity and the weight of the slate roofs....

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2013, 07:55:18 PM »
 :D :D :D

Thank's Justin,

You made my night.  Seems like you been doing you reading, watching and studying, good for you.  You made some great observations.  Thank's again for sharing that.

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3825
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Joliet, IL and Indy
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2013, 10:25:02 PM »
That's pretty accurate to what he said jueston.

The original poster didn't mention whether the log chunk he was splitting out was dry or green?  Make a huge difference.  A very green chunk makes for easy and smooth draw knifing. 

Draw your grid pattern on the face of the log chunk, split it out into blanks, then throw them in a tub of water- one of those rubbermaid tubs works.  This way they can't dry out before you go to draw knife them.  Keep an eye on your tub water.  Make sure no mold forms.  Put a few drops of bleach in there if need be.  Draw knifing tapered pegs goes about a peg a minute if it's nice 'n wet.  Then they only need to dry out for a few days before you use them, longer is fine.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline rmawhinney

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2013, 09:08:02 AM »
Thank you Jay, I was getting confused with the blanks that makes a lot more sense to me now. I will go ahead and use the birch probably then.

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2013, 08:34:23 PM »
Brad_bb just for information, the wood was green.

Brad you are right, I was starting with a blank that was too large and trying to shave it down to a round 1".  It was fun to experiment but not very productive.  I've since split off smaller blanks, squared them to 1" and sliced off the corners to an octagon shape.  Much faster and better looking pegs.

Thanks Jay, Jander and everyone else for the help.

Hope this weather warms up soon, I'm past ready to get to work on the sawmil shed.

Stan
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7367
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2013, 08:36:43 PM »
Happy Birthday Stan......

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2013, 10:05:23 AM »
Thanks Jim.  I had a good day in spite of the age ( 65 !! where did the time go?)

Stan (now officially an old guy)
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7367
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2013, 10:59:43 AM »
My daughter told Uncle when he complained about being old that: "it was his own fault, for getting old"..... :D ;D :o ::)
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline tgalbraith

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Age: 82
  • Location: N/E wisconsin
  • Gender: Male
  • Your never too old, to have a Happy Childhood!
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2013, 01:16:40 PM »
Another method to make round pegs, is too simply drill a hole of the desired size in a scrap piece
of heavy metal,  split out square pegs, round off one end and drive them through the hole.  These
pegs are not visible along their length, so any slight imperfection is ok.
M Belsaw, 46" insert blade, Oliver 88 power  plant

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2013, 07:23:03 PM »
Quote
These pegs are not visible along their length, so any slight imperfection is ok.

Hi Tgalbraith,

I know I have used "steel peg dies," for furniture work up to about a 1/2", but then they got a little too rough and needed some spoke shave work just to be acceptable.  As critical as pegs can be in timber frame joinery, I'm not sure I could use a larger die to make bigger pegs.  Have you had success with this in your timber frames?  I always wondered if I over sized the die hole, then sized the peg down with a spoke shave, if that wouldn't work. It may speed up the process, but I'm thinking pounding big blanks into a die just may not be worth it.  Is that what you did and did you find it faster?

Regards,

jay
"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline D L Bahler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
  • Age: 2015
  • Location: Central Indiana - Berner Mitteland
  • Gender: Male
  • Hopp Schwyz!
    • Share Post
    • Traditional Swiss Carpentry
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2013, 10:39:12 PM »
When erecting buildings in Blockbau, we have to peg all the courses of logwork together. By the time a whole building is erected there are hundreds and hundreds of these pegs to be made and put into place. The traditional practice is to use dowels instead of carved pegs. Dowels are made of riven stock cut down to an approximate size and driven through a hole to create a nice round piece of stock. A much quicker process to be sure. These dowels are not seen in the finished work, if I were to build a frame with exposed pegs, I would want to make them with the draw knife or with my axe.

If you have a good side axe, this can be the quickest way to make quality pegs. I like it better than the drawknife for hardwoods.

On a side note, however, on the timber frames I observed in the Canton of Bern, pegs were often totally absent in the timberwork...

Offline Jay C. White Cloud

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1284
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Thetford, Vermont, USA
  • Gender: Male
  • semper fidelis
    • Share Post
    • Online business card
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2013, 11:04:46 PM »
Quote
Dowels are made of riven stock cut down to an approximate size and driven through a hole to create a nice round piece of stock.
Hi David,  What did they drive them through?  I wonder if this would work with larger blanks?  It sounds like you made this work, could you tell us more about he process?

Quote
I observed in the Canton of Bern, pegs were often totally absent in the timber work...
What kind of joinery David, a mix of "gravity" and "draw wedge," or something else?  Thank's for bringing this up.  ??? Thank's

"To posses an open mind, is to hold a key to many doors, and the ability to created doors where there were none before."

"When it is all said and done, they will have said they did it themselves."-teams response under a good leader.

Offline D L Bahler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
  • Age: 2015
  • Location: Central Indiana - Berner Mitteland
  • Gender: Male
  • Hopp Schwyz!
    • Share Post
    • Traditional Swiss Carpentry
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2013, 10:54:31 AM »
Jay
we often simply by dowels. good poplar or oak dowels. these are more than sufficient for the task, and inexpensive
what they drove them through, that depends on where and when. The easiest way is to drive the wood through a metal plate, but you don't always have metal available (the houses in the Berner Oberland), for example, were built without even a single iron nail until the late 1800s
I suppose fir and spruce dowels could be driven through a hole in a harder wood such as maple beech or oak, or through a hole cut in a slab of gneiss or slate which is abundant in the mountains.
regarding the joinery
the use of the mortise and tenon is not so prevalent as with Anglo-American styles. and tenons are generally short stub tenons. Much more of the joinery relies on shouldering, cogging, lapping, and dovetails or combinations of the three. sills are secured with through tenons secured with a heavy wedge on the outside
interestingly however, in the Oberland pegs were and still are used in lieu of nails to secure things like stair treads and wall paneling. these pegs are carved with an oversized head, which is made to be somehow attractive or even decorated with a pattern such as a rosette.

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2013, 11:08:00 AM »
I did drive a few preshaped but oversize 1 1/16 dia pegs through a 1" steel hole
Not much fun. Easiest method so far is to make octagon pegs on the table saw. Not the traditional handmade way but fastest and most consistent diameter
I don't have a lathe so didn't try that way
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline S.Hyland

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
  • Age: 34
  • Location: Allegany County New York
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • My business website...
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2013, 06:58:39 PM »
I've tried it on a lathe, and I prefer the octagonal shape. The octagonal shape is much more forgiving size wise. Fully round turned pegs have to be so accurate to work, especially in a hardwood frame. If they are a 64th too big they just won't drive.   
It may be that when we no longer know which way to go that we have come to our real journey. The mind that is not baffled is not employed. The impeded stream is the one that sings.
― Wendell Berry

Offline tgalbraith

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 157
  • Age: 82
  • Location: N/E wisconsin
  • Gender: Male
  • Your never too old, to have a Happy Childhood!
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2013, 11:00:09 AM »
Quote
These pegs are not visible along their length, so any slight imperfection is ok.

Hi Tgalbraith,

I know I have used "steel peg dies," for furniture work up to about a 1/2", but then they got a little too rough and needed some spoke shave work just to be acceptable.  As critical as pegs can be in timber frame joinery, I'm not sure I could use a larger die to make bigger pegs.  Have you had success with this in your timber frames?  I always wondered if I over sized the die hole, then sized the peg down with a spoke shave, if that wouldn't work. It may speed up the process, but I'm thinking pounding big blanks into a die just may not be worth it.  Is that what you did and did you find it faster?

Regards,

jay
Jay.
I have never been involved with a complete "timber frame" project, but have used larger size wood pins when building rustic benches, rustic gates, etc.  I agree that the bigger you go, the harder it is, but I have found it to be quicker and easier than the " draw shave" method used by the original poster that I responded too. :) :)
M Belsaw, 46" insert blade, Oliver 88 power  plant

Offline D L Bahler

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
  • Age: 2015
  • Location: Central Indiana - Berner Mitteland
  • Gender: Male
  • Hopp Schwyz!
    • Share Post
    • Traditional Swiss Carpentry
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2013, 12:43:39 PM »
I'll reiterate what I said peviously,

when making octagonal or square pegs, I find by far the fastest method is to use an axe.

Split out a blank close to the right size with axe and froe. Make the blank significantly longer than the finished peg, maybe 8 or 9 inches or even more. Holding the blank in one hand, cut the sides down with the axe, use a slicing, shaving type motion and not a chop. With split wood, it takes a matter of seconds to make a good peg (you can then refine it with the drawknife if you wish, or if you are not yet accurate with the axe) You could turn it over and shape the end you held to, but I like to make a nice peg head some times. It can be very attractive to have a peg with a carved head driven against the timber

Most of the time, as was pointed out, you dont actually want a round dowel. So maybe forget the plate method. But when using lots of dowels, it does help to drive a lot of long stock through a plate. It also helps to have a number of holes each slightly smaller than the last. Drive the stock through the first hole that it barely will contact, then step down from there

Offline CBERBER

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2014, 03:28:17 PM »
Hello Folks,
Just wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase a timber peg die or is this something I need to custom make thanks in advance
(hope someone reads this)

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3825
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Joliet, IL and Indy
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2014, 03:58:37 PM »
I don't know of anywhere to buy.  Anyone who uses them typically makes it.  Drill a hole in a piece of thick steel.  Hole needs to have sharp edges to cut.  I've never used one though.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7367
  • Age: 67
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2014, 05:54:36 PM »
Hello Folks,
Just wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase a timber peg die or is this something I need to custom make thanks in advance
(hope someone reads this)

CBERBER:
Welcome to the forum.
You can make your own pegs many ways. One way is to push them through a piece of steel with a sharp edge.
Another way, is to trim them with a table saw.
Also, we normally make them with a shaving horse and a draw knife. Each peg blank is shaped to fit a test hole so that we're sure it will go into the mortise peg hole each time when we put the frame together.
If you'd like a set of shaving horse plans, send me an email via the regular email system and I'll send a set to you. I can't post it on an open forum.
If you'd like to get a draw knife, check out the tools for sale list in the for sale section. We do have a good stock of draw knives on hand right now.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline classicadirondack

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 72
  • Location: Pinellas Park, FL
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2014, 12:41:23 PM »
stanwelch--there's not much you can do about getting "older", but there's a lot you can do about getting "old"

Offline routestep

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2014, 02:58:51 PM »
This post is a little old but for the record:

I've used all above but the ax method. I might try a hatch though.

Currently I use a No. 4 hand plane, a saw horse and a board with a v shaped groove cut down its face to hold a peg blank. I plane down the corners of the blank to whatever roundness I wish.

Dry wood works better than green using a plane.

Offline Dirigoboy

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2019, 03:49:38 PM »
Thought I too would revive this topic as I think I've found a pretty ingenuous method, from Sussex oak builders in England for more efficiently and less tediously turning out wooden pegs.  I think it's pretty slick and, a few quick nips on the shaving horse and the pegs seem to churn out fairly effortlessly and uniformly.

Enjoy the video, I did

Offline stanwelch

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Age: 71
  • Location: COLDWATER, MI
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2019, 09:50:01 PM »
Thanks for sharing that video.  I think that taper on the top of the die makes the peg feed much easier than driving a square peg into a hole in a flat plate. I think I might try to make a die like that. I plan to start an addition on my shed and want to make the pegs this spring. However, I did find shaping the peg blanks on the shave horse quite relaxing  :)
Stan
Woodworker, Woodmizer LT15, Stihl 026, MS261CM and 460 chainsaws, John Deere 5410 Tractor 540 Loader& Forks, Econoline 6 ton tilt bed trailer

Offline Brad_bb

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3825
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Joliet, IL and Indy
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2019, 10:23:50 PM »
I'm not an expert, but from my experience...

That type of die is definitely more difficult to make versus a hole in say a 3/8" thick piece of steel.  With a hole in a flat piece of steel, you need the peg diameter closer to the finished diameter than he needs with that die for exactly the reason that Stanwelch said (the tapers).  

One important thing to note here... I read the original post and most of those that followed.  The original poster did not specify if he was making pegs for draw boring or for a line-to-line fit.  One requires a tapered peg for about 3/4 of it's length.  The other requires a uniform diameter.  

For draw boring, you finish taper the peg with a draw knife and you're done.  The peg can have irregularities along it's length and diameter because it acts more like a wedge.  With a line-to-line fit you would have a lot of problems with draw knife finished pegs, especially in a hardwood frame.  Irregularities/non-uniformity would hang up the peg in the hole and you risk damage if you try to pound it in, the peg may even get stuck before it goes far enough and then you have to cut it off and drill the center out.  

That's why a die is used- to make them uniform and sized correctly.  I actually drive them through the die twice.  The first time removes the bulk of material, but some compression goes on.  The second pass cleans it up.  I recently made a peg die.  


 

If it's a softwood frame, the softwood may compress and allow the non-uniform peg or slightly oversize peg to go in.  It may also allow and octagon peg to be driven(compressing where the corners drive in).  But you also risk damage to the frame timbers or tenon when driving in a peg that is too tight.

So for a drawbore, drawknife your tapered peg(green).  For a line to line fit, draw knife your blank fairly close, drawknife the point on one end, let them dry a couple months, then drive them through your die.

As far as riving blanks, you want green, clear, straight grain.  But you also want to be careful of taper.  Sometimes you'll split at one inch or 1 1/16" but at the bottom it will taper down and be too small.  I look for a large diameter 16-30" that has the same diameter on top and bottom of the round.  The bottom of the butt usually has taper, but further up the butt is better (no jokes- I can hear you 12 year olds out there).  Any hardwood will work for pegs if they split straight.  I prefer white oak, which will be the strongest and rot resistant.  But I also have Ash, Walnut, and cherry.  I prefer white oak for outside- like a shed roof, for rot resistance.  I'd use Walnut too.  Heartwood is all you want to use.  No sapwood.  

Time it takes to make a peg.  
Making tapered pegs for draw boring goes very fast.  Once you get your splitting size down pat, and you're working with log rounds that are yielding good square blanks, You spend about a minute a peg on the shaving horse.  You have to watch how you hold the draw knife so your thumbs don't get sore.  You don't want to grip the draw knife too much.  

Making line to line pegs is pretty much the same work as above but draw knifing them round and not tapered.  Then you have to additionally drive them through the die.  This can be a workout driving them with a 3 LB hammer.  I will try to spread them out and do 25 a day or so.  Your arms will get in shape if you have a lot to do.  I had to do 500 in 5 days once.  What a workout.

Some people have done other techniques - like a fire wood splitter to push pegs through a die.  I've only heard of that and never seen it.  Once Riven and turning on a lathe is fine too.  I've never tried squaring on a table saw and then rounding on a router table, but that seems like a lot more work than using a shave horse and die, plus the noise and personal risks you take with the machines.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline rjwoelk

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Age: 63
  • Location: lumsden sask. canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • countrysidefirewood
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #40 on: January 18, 2019, 12:21:15 AM »
I use straight grain birch. Picked out when processing firewood.
Joint  it then cut into 1 inch squares. Set the saw at 45 and fence at 11/16. Fit snug on a 1 inch hole.
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

Offline Dirigoboy

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
  • Location: Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: TIMBER FRAME PEG MAKING
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2019, 08:20:31 PM »
[shrugs]  I didn't say everyone had to like it.
What I did say was that I found it efficient.  It ain't hard to find the steel or a welder to make it.  1/4" plate for the base, two pieces of tube stock and a welder can do that in less than an hour, and your left with a quality dowel maker.

I like it, and when I get ready to make pegs, I'm going to get it made.


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

 


Powered by EzPortal