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What do you guys use for cruising?

Started by adrtree, March 31, 2013, 03:34:22 PM

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adrtree

 I'm new and wanted to know what you guys usually use for cruising. A prism or a Relascope?

Ron Scott

Both, depending upon the job's need for accuracy. We generally use the 10 factor prism for production cruising, but where more precision is needed in a tree measurement, research plots, check cruise areas, etc. we will use the Relascope. We will also check ourselves periodically with the Relascope.
~Ron

Texas Ranger

prisms either 10 or 20, depending on the job, and the stand.  HAVE i mentioned I REALLY HATE CRUISING YOUNG PLANTATIONS?
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

WDH

I have used both.  Personally, I like fixed plot cruising over variable plot cruising. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

adrtree

Thanks for the advice, Sorry to ask stupid questions but I have read a publication by the University of Tennessee and that is the extent of my knowledge on this subject.
I live in North Georgia and so far out of 13 Foresters I have called to come out and cruise 200 acres I've had one no show and twelve that did not call back so I have decided to learn it myself and buy whatever I need for the cruise.....

In a high elevation predominantly Poplar forest cut last in 1952 then I guess I would use a 20 because of the size of the trees?

Ron Scott

Are you calling professional consulting foresters? Can all of them be that busy to turn down a 200 acre cruising job?
~Ron

adrtree

Quote from: Ron Scott on March 31, 2013, 11:00:41 PM
Are you calling professional consulting foresters? Can all of them be that busy to turn down a 200 acre cruising job?
Yes, I am calling the consulting foresters listed on the Georgia Forestry Commission website. Most every one of them are Timber Buyers/Brokers by trade also so all I can figure is they don't want to be bothered to be paid by the cruise on a property where I am not selling the timber to any broker (I will be doing the logging and hauling to the mill myself).
And yes, I would say they are very busy right now. Seems to be a boom in my area due to a combination of landowners needing money and low land values right now. Alot of activity here lately.

SwampDonkey

Assuming the size and density of the trees is the same, going from a BAF of 10 to a 20 decreases the tally, less measuring. In good timber, I think you want at least 10 tallied trees per sample point.

You can also use an angle gauge which uses the same math as a prism. Only the observer's eye becomes the pivot point. With a prism, the prism is the pivot point.

the BAF is width of gauge divided by distance from eye to gauge, square this number and multiply by 10890 ft2/acre.

Ex:
1" gauge/33" from eye = 0.0303   square it = 0.00091827 x 10890 = 10 ft2/acre
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Clark

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 01, 2013, 04:14:51 AM
Assuming the size and density of the trees is the same, going from a BAF of 10 to a 20 decreases the tally, less measuring. In good timber, I think you want at least 10 tallied trees per sample point.

How many trees sampled/point really depends on what you need to make a reasonable estimate of volume.  Using a larger BAF typically means taking more points in the stand to get more sampled trees.

Clark
SAF Certified Forester

isawlogs

  Me, to cruise, I use the little button on my steeerin' wheel.  :)
A man does not always grow wise as he grows old , but he always grows old as he grows wise .

   Marcel

SwampDonkey

You took that statement out of context. What I was saying is, if it's the same point in the ground in the same woods, a larger BAF means smaller tally. As far as trees tallied in a point, the 10 tree figure is just a number I've noticed as a ball park for cruising timber on both coasts of the country. We could have stands that averaged 6, and some 14. In order to do what your suggesting, a sample has to be done to predict if it meets your parameters. I doubt many are recruising ground (once to test and once to follow up with another sample design if the former was insufficient) unless an audit revealed the figures were out to lunch. I've never seen it done, however we may adjust the BAF up or down to be sure we sample enough trees in all canopy positions (ie. suppressed, intermediate, dominant). I've done that a few times, but only on the west coast in uneven aged forests. In New Brunswick we use a 2 or 3 m2/ha prism, mostly 2.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Claybraker

First, welcome to the forum. There aren't near enough of us landowners around here. Especially those of us in Georgia, where Grits are a staple item in our diet.

The fact is, it's near enough impossible for us to determine the value of our standing timber. There are way too many variables involved, and it's not a transaction we engage in with any regularity. You and I are at a decided disadvantage. It took me over a year to find a consultant that I and the rest of my family was comfortable with.

Texas Ranger

For standing uneven aged timber, I use a 10 factor, for plantations with uniform planting, I use the 20 factor.  It is the uniform thing that lets you get by with a 20, that and experience.

I am surprised that no foresters show up to cruise.  Apparently, consultants in Georgia are not as hungry as some here in Texas.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

SwampDonkey

I agree. Also the prism and gauge are used to speed up the cruising. It's plotless so you concentrate on measuring trees and not on plot boundaries except on borderline trees. Most of our forests in NB are even aged, unless we get a stand with a lot of remnant old white pine and old hemlock around. Most lots are flattened or if not, badly high graded or to a point the remaining trees suffer from scald. I drive by a woodlot of a fellow that prided himself of doing single tree selections. His dominant hardwoods are half dead now. Not very impressive. Doesn't look any different than any other high grade I've seen. Up here' I've found you cannot take more than 20 % from a fully stocked stand or your woods suffer. The trouble is, it's not economical if your buying the stumpage. If it's your own, you'll survive but not get rich. Most people don't own enough land for that so they have to keep buying stumpage. You have to realize that we are in a harsher climate and on the edge of some species ranges. I call it fringe wood.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Claybraker

Quote from: Texas Ranger on April 01, 2013, 03:40:15 PM


I am surprised that no foresters show up to cruise.  Apparently, consultants in Georgia are not as hungry as some here in Texas.

Yep. My consultant forester lives at Fernandina Beach in Florida. We've been very satisfied with him. No, I'm not going to share his name. Sharing a Forester is unsanitary.

Texas Ranger

The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Todd

I use a Brad Pitt mask..at 60 mph they can't tell! :D
Making somthing idiot-proof only leads to the creation of bigger idiots!

Claybraker

Leonard is busy enough as it is. Did I mention all of us in the family are happy with the job he did? Do you have any idea how challenging it is to keep all of the members of this family happy?

We got's us a forester that can follow simple instructions, and we ain't sharing.

petefrom bearswamp

i grew up with measured 1/10 acre plots in the late 50's early 60s. Relascope big bucks, 10 factor prism small bucks.
I still believe measured plots are more accurate but in our hurry up society not practical.
Pete
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

SwampDonkey

I measured plots on my own land because I'm not doing it for pay. I like measuring my trees. ;D

In NB our permanent sample plots, plots that are measured for decades with the same plot centre, are measured circular plots. I don't think they are more accurate though. The trees in the PSP are tagged and numbered. Some enter (min size) and exit (die) the plot over time. I have done both on the same piece of land and don't see any significant difference in the results. As long as it's stratified and random and the timber typing is done well, avoiding edges.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

wmrussel

I'm a production timber cruiser, so I'm all for a 20 on everything  :snowball:
My name is William, but people call me Pete.  Long story......

WDH

With measured plots, fixed radius plots, you can really dial in and get in a groove.  Once you get calibrated to the plot radius, it seems faster to me than the prism or relascope, but it does depend somewhat on stand conditions.  And, like Pete says, relascopes are big $$$$.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

Yes they are expensive, I've used them in coastal timber cruises in BC. I think at the time they were $750. I can point sample far quicker than plot sample. ;D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

Ron Wenrich

I've been using an angle gauge and get good results.  Fixed plots are ok, dependent on terrain and understory.  We did a fixed plot for a timber trespass case one time.  The understory was black locust, about 10' high and thick.  Not very good conditions for any type of work.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

WDH

Sometimes it is so thick that it is hard to see the trees no matter what method you employ. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

SwampDonkey

For what Ron said about trespass, a fixed plot is about all you can do. Then use tree length tables or find the relationship between stump and breast height diameter from nearby standing trees, maybe on an adjacent property. Done a few of those. One time we did it to collect levy from a Quebec mill for private wood. The levy is for management on woodlots and marketing. It's not used for profit.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

banksiana

Lately doing 100 percent cruise.  Count every *DanG tree and sample a set percentage for dbh and height.  Stupid as [I have typed a profane word that is automatically changed by the forum censored words program I should know better] and I am sick of it. 

SwampDonkey

Are they doing growth and yield or something there banksiana? Otherwise if the stands are uniform, seems it's wasted $$ for that kind of intensity. I believe that has been proven a  long time ago. Maybe someone thinks all those studies are worthless. :D
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

petefrom bearswamp

I did both a random 10 factor plot cruise and a 100% on a 57 acre woodlot of my own.
I am retired and had lots of time.
The big surprise to me was that the total volume for both cruises was within 3 MBF.
Lucky with the prism I guess.
Kubota 8540 tractor, FEL bucket and forks, Farmi winch
Kubota 900 RTV
Polaris 570 Sportsman ATV
3 Huskies 1 gas Echo 1 cordless Echo vintage Homelite super xl12
57 acres of woodland

chevytaHOE5674

Point cruise with a 10 factor prism or angle gauge 90% of the time. The other 10% is a mixture of 20 factor prism cruising and some fixed plot cruising.

SwampDonkey

The reason I like circular plots on my lot is the trees are young, and with the thinning I've done I know the spacing, but the fir grows twice and fast as the planted spruce. That is, on the raised sites. I want to measure more than 4 to 5 trees in a plot and I measure them down to 2" in diameter because I want to see how the rate of growth is from an early age. The last cruise was in 2007 and worked out to be 2.5 cord per acre in 14 years. Another 6 years (this fall) will be interesting, that will be year 20 since the harvest.
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

kczbest

I guess I'm just old school, but I prefer strip cruising.
Hail State!
2013 F150 Supercrew 4x4
John Deere 5303 4x4 with FEL
Cook's MP 32
Cat 289C with Bradco MM60 Forestry Mulcher Head

mesquite buckeye

Hope that's not the forester's version of strip poker. ::) ::) ::) ;D
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

banksiana

Quote from: SwampDonkey on April 07, 2013, 06:04:04 AM
Are they doing growth and yield or something there banksiana? Otherwise if the stands are uniform, seems it's wasted $$ for that kind of intensity. I believe that has been proven a  long time ago. Maybe someone thinks all those studies are worthless. :D

No, straight up timber sales, and low dollar species I should add, like junky hardwood pulp.  Agency policy from a backwards agency with no balls to step outside the comfort zone and look through a prism. 

SwampDonkey

Seems odd.  And I bet it's all contracted out at low rates to because efficiency and government don't mix. :-\
"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

1 Thessalonians 5:21

2020 Polaris Ranger 570 to forward firewood, Husqvarna 555 XT Pro, Stihl FS560 clearing saw and continuously thinning my ground, on the side. Grow them trees. (((o)))

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