Bugs eating holes in air dried lumber

[rwachtell]

If I air dry my lumber outside is it possible bugs may eat holes in it.   I recently cut some Walnut that I have air drying outside ( under some cover ) and I am worried that those same bugs that drill little round holes in my firewood may do the same to my Walnut.

Do I have to worry about this?

RW

[beenthere]

Don't think they will bother your walnut.

[rwachtell]

It seems they may have drilled some holes in a board that had flat sawn sap wood on it.  Perhaps it had bark wood on it too.

[WDH]

The bad ones are the powderpost beetles.  Here in Georgia, they get in the sapwood in walnut , but not the heartwood.  I do not generally spray walnut, taking the chance that the powderpost beetles will get in some of the sapwood.  However, I spray all hardwoods other than cherry with a borate salt to prevent powderpost beetle infestation.  They can ruin a stack of fine hardwood.  I have had them get in red oak, pecan, persimmon, yellow poplar, and white oak.  They especially love the coarse grained ring porous hardwoods. 

Leaving bark on hardwood boards without spraying them is a recipe for powderpost beetles.  Somehow, the bark is an attractant. 

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Yes, you do have a risk, especially for the sapwood.  The insect of some concern is the ambrosia beetle, but there are others.  Fortunately, the lyctid powder post beetle prefers drier wood, so the risk of infestation from this insect is small at this time.  This lyctus PPB is what many people worry about, and rightly so, but there are a few other PPB that are only in wood above 30% MC.

In almost all cases these insects need a place to live prior to getting into your lumber.  This home place must be close to your lumber.  As they live in wood, if your yard is free of wood debris including 4x4s, broken stickers, lumber pieces, old air dried lumber, and sawdust, your risk of infestation is very low because your yard does not provide a home for them.  Note that all stickers used for stacking and 4x4s should also have been in a kiln or hot box at 150 F to sanitize them, and they must be stored where they will not get infested, otherwise they can carry insects and their eggs.

[rwachtell]

WDH

Can you elaborate on how you spray the Borate Salt?

Will these beetles also attack softwood like spruce?

RW

[Ljohnsaw]

WDH

Can you elaborate on how you spray the Borate Salt?

Will these beetles also attack softwood like spruce?

RW

Or pine and aspen?  I'm pretty sure I'm safe with the Cedar...

[WDH]

I do not believe that the lyctid powderpost beetle, which is such a scourge in ring porous hardwoods, infests softwoods like pine and spruce.  Consequently, I do not spray pine, and I have not had a problem like I have had with the hardwoods.  Aspen is a hardwood, and is more susceptible to powderpost beetles.  It is diffuse porous, not ring porous which they prefer, but they can still infest aspen.   

I use disodium octaborate tetrahydrate.  It is 20.5% boron.  You can buy it commercially as a pesticide by the product name of Timbor.  The active ingredient is 98% disodium octaborate tetrahydrate. 

There are two other brand names of disodium octaborate tetrahydrate that I am familiar with one.  One is Solubor and the other is Beau-Ron D.  Here is the label on Beau-Ron D.

http://www.drexchem.com/Products/Labels/Drexel_Beau-Ron-D_10006_LABEL.pdf

Both Solubor and Beau-Ron D are labeled as fertilizer supplements to supply the micro nutrient boron in an agricultural liquid fertilizer tank mix. 

I mix 6 pounds of disodium octaborate tetrahydrate in 5 gallons of water.  It takes a while to dissolve, so you need to make it up several hours ahead of the time that you want to use it.  Spray it on the wood on all sides until the wood is wet.  You have to keep the treated wood out of the rain because the chemical is water soluable and will wash out if it gets rained on too much. 

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Hey WDH, et al.,

The companies I use to supervise in Connecticut would make a fair percentage each year servicing lumber yards.  I noted that you said you don't spray the cherry?  Does it not get infested down there where you are?  Gene's and your advice is great for folks to follow.  I don't think a lot of young sawyer realize how innocuous these different beetles (coleoptera) can be.

To answer someone's question about coniferes, there are species that attack, but they seem not to be a problem here in the states, except when the log has been down with the bark on for an extended period.  In those cases I would spray.

Something you may want to read about and try is diatomaceous earth.  It's a wonderful product and not toxic to pets and humans, they even put it in the grain products we eat to stop infestation.  One of those things the old timers new and has fallen to the "wayside," of knowledge in modern times.

Regards,

jay

[WDH]

Jay,

I have only seen powderpost beetles in cherry sapwood.  And not often.  They don't seem to like walnut and cherry heartwood so much, maybe because of the extractives.

[Jay C. White Cloud]

Thanks, that would make sense and is very true.  For the style of work we do, (it often has a lot of sapwood) it made sense to spray.

[rwachtell]

WDH

I have been drying my cherry  boards of nearly all sapwood/barkwood to be used for stickers for my spruce boards.   To support your statement, I do not see a single hole in any of these cherry sticker boards.  Perhaps I have made a good choice for stickers for the spruce.   I did notice the beetles raped a walnut board nearly all sapwood and left out in the sun to dry. Interestingly enough they did not make holes in the little bit of heartwood in that board.

Are the red oak boards that are in my shed out of harms way?  Or are those 8!@#%^&* likely to find there way into my shed?

In July I am planning on milling a Red Oak Log say 18 inches in diameter that I will pick up down at the highway department.     Is it possible that will already have beetle holes deeply into it?

RW

[WDH]

The red oak that you have dried is certainly susceptible.  PPB's really like red oak.  They do not always get in it, but you never know. 

The red oak at the highway department, if it is still a log, is much too green for PPBs.  They only infest wood that has dried.  However, the ambrosia beetle is a very common beetle that infests trees of all species that are weak, dying, or dead.  They leave a very small (smaller than an uncooked rice grain) hole in the wood that is often lined in black (probably a fungus ).  The ambrosia beetles are generally harmless in that once the lumber starts to dry, they cannot survive in the wood.  They exit stage right and are not a problem once the wood is dry.  They do leave the little black lined holes behind, but hey, that adds character  ;D.

So, the highway department oak may have some ambrosia beetles, but it will not have PPBs, and these are the very bad boys.  If you mill the highway oak and spray the green lumber with the disodium octaborate tetrahydrate, you will permanently ruin the PPB's party.  They will leave it alone.

[GeneWengert-WoodDoc]

Keep in mind that the adult beetle of probably all species will lay eggs and then the eggs will hatch and the larva will bore into the wood with an almost invisible hole and eat inside the wood for as much as a year or two, without any evidence on the outside that the insect is present.  Once you see the holes, it is too late as these holes are exit holes for the flying insect.  A spray will not cure existing damage and probably not go deep enough to kill the larva still eating the inside of the wood.  Any spray must be done before the eggs are layer and must be strong enough in a few weeks to a year later to kill the larva when it hatches from the egg.  The eggs cannot be killed with a spray.  The borates do have a long life and when applied with water will soak into the wood a little bit.

[rwachtell]

Thanks for all the great advice.

I knew there was more then one reason that December is my favorite wood cutting month of the year.

I am wondering if I can spray my Red Oak, of which 75 board feet has dried for about 5 months and 150 board feet has dried for about 3 months?  Do you have to spray when its green.  Will I stain the wood otherwise?

RW

[WDH]

Yes, best to spray green right off the saw.  As to your oak that has been drying for 3 to 5 months, you can heat the boards to a critical temp for a set period of time, something like an internal wood temp of 140 degrees held for 4 hours, and that will kill any eggs or larvae.  That is not easy to do without a kiln.

The borate salt solution that you spray on green wood will not stain the wood as the solution is clear like water.

[rwachtell]

WDH
Thanks for all your good advice.

I don't think the bugs have gotten to my oak in the shed.  I see no evidence that any have. So I don't see any reason to kill something that is not there.

However going forward with fresh oak, I take it all of these solutions are corrosive on metal parts that make up band saw mills?  If not, is it possible to use any of these solutions in the water tank of my band mill.   That would take out two birds at the same time.

RW

[thecfarm]

I think I mentioned that "great" idea too. WDH was not impressed.  ;D  He said there was something in the mix that was good for a sawmill.

[rwachtell]

I think I mentioned that "great" idea too. WDH was not impressed.  ;D  He said there was something in the mix that was good for a sawmill.

If its good for it why not use it?

[thecfarm]

I left out a word.  :  NOT good for a sawmill. Sorry. :-[  I knew what I wanted to say. I think I mentioned before I need a check that tells me I left a word out of a post.

[WDH]

Salt is not good for metal, at least down South.  Up North in the glaciated Maine, that may not be the case as things have gotten weird up there.  They don't even eat grits.  Can you imagine  ???.

[samandothers]

That will make things interesting.

[OneWithWood]

I heard that if I spread grits on green lumber that NOTHING will infest it.   ;)

[Jay C. White Cloud]

If you put grits on your wood you will get a horrible infestation of WDH types creatures typically of (but not limited to) the Southern realms. ;)

WDH, I live in Vermont, and many of us love and eat lots and lots of GRITS!  So you won't miss out if you come for a visit.  There gooooood too in the Northern style, with fresh butter, bacon chips, and just a touch of maple syrup.

[WDH]

I am sure that the Northern types on here can be very creative in coming up with alternate uses for grits.