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Author Topic: Buggs - ID? Temporary?  (Read 3408 times)

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Offline acrosteve

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Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« on: August 03, 2013, 07:31:13 AM »
I am sawing some poplar that has been down for over a year.  Just laying in the woods where it fell, so it was pretty damp.

Anyway, I am using the wood for ship lap siding on a small cabin of sorts.  8x10 with no insulation.  After sawing, I temporarily stickered the wood for less than a week.  As was expected, there where quite a few beetle holes in the sap wood on almost all of the logs.

I am inexperienced and have never treated my lumber after sawing, but have been reading about various methods.  Wood will be left to air dry - no kiln YET.

Well, on the wood still in the barn, many of the holes had little piles of sawdust around them - Like mini volcanos.

First, what is the most likely type of bug I have?  Then, I figure they will go away in the wood once it on the building - correct?  But probably not in the wood that I end up stacking to dry.

Third, how do you spray the cut lumber?  Spraying every side before stacking seems like way more work than anybody would do for much more than small quantities.  But how else do you assure good coverage?  I already spend more time than I want brushing off the sawdust from both faces.

Lastly, I need to do some research on the various chemical options, but can I just mix Borax powder with water and use that?

Thanks
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Offline BBTom

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 07:48:53 AM »
Others that know a lot more than I will soon chime in, I feel certain. 

Yes, 1 or 1.5 lbs of borax/gal of water to make the spray.  Remember that borax only works on the outside of the lumber.  When the bugs come out, they will be killed and any new bugs trying to get in will be killed.  The bugs that are inside the lumber will NOT be killed. Most bugs do not like dry lumber and will leave when it starts to get dry. Powder post beetles will tolerate dry lumber even though they too prefer it wet.

Anybody, correct me if I am mistaken.
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 04:40:04 PM »
There are several different insects that you might have...some like wetter wood (e.g., ambrosia beetle) and some like drier wood (e.g., lyctid powder post beetle).  All are killed if you go over 133 F wood temperature in drying.  However, in air drying, they can survive.  The tunnels they make inside the wood can greatly affect the strength, so control is essential.  Dry wood can become reinfected, even if it was dried over 133 F.

Borate solutions (do not use the soap as that is not the correct chemical; use one of the special chemicals for preservation use) are quite effective, except where you have exposure to liquid water, as water exposure can cause the borate to leach out.  When applying a borate, you need to soak the wood or, by spray or brush, apply it many times until it penetrates fully.  If it does not penetrate, then insects inside the wood will continue to survive.  How do you measure the penetration?...very tough to do indeed, so we usually will treat and then treat some more just in case.  A light treatment is good to prevent new infestations as you form a protective barrier on the lumber, but in your case with existing activity inside the wood, you need complete penetration...not good news.  You should also check to see how extensive the damage is; it may be so much that the strength is compromised extensively.

Note that for siding, you will have wet enough lumber to support both the wetter insects and the dry insects.  A treatment or some way to keep the wood quite dry almost all the time is important
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Offline acrosteve

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 06:48:28 AM »
I looked a few pic online and I think most of them are ambrosia beetles, not powder post beetles.

However, in my sawing, I never saw any chambers - just tunnels.


I was skeptical about the "borax" detergent booster, thanks for clarifying.
Timberking B-20

Offline WDH

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 09:28:02 PM »
Spray with disodium octaborate tetrahydrate.  It contains 20.5% boron.  I use about  a pound and a quarter per gallon of water a preventative solution that will keep the bugs from getting started.  If you already have an infestation and you want to try and contain it with the borate, a higher concentration will be needed and the wood has to be soaked like Dr. Gene stated.


As powderpost beetles do not like really wet wood, I bet that what you have is ambrosia beetles.  As the wood began to dry, they matured and bored out leaving the sawdust piles.  They cannot live in dry wood like the powderpost beetles.  If sprayed now, like BBTom said, it will prevent any new attacks but probably will not affect any larvae that are already in the wood.  The good thing is that if what you have is ambrosia beetles, they will all soon leave as the wood dries and the borate spray will keep any new infestations, including the dreaded powderpost beetles, from starting any new infestations.

If what you have is ambrosia beetles, the beetle holes will be small and they will be open, that is, they will not be filled with fine sawdust.  Many times these holes develop a black ring around the hole or the inside of the tunnel is black.  With powderpost beetles, the tunnels will be clogged with very fine sawdust or "frass".  The inside of the tunnels will not have a black color.  A few close-up pics of the tunnels will help figure out what you might have. 
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Offline Kingcha

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 09:37:53 PM »
any advice on sprayers to buy, I have had some issues with them.

Thanks
Matt
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Offline WDH

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 09:52:55 PM »
any advice on sprayers to buy, I have had some issues with them.

Thanks
Matt

I use a 25 gallon ATV spray tank with a diaphram pump that runs off a 12 volt power pack or battery.  It delivers 60 psi and has a very good, strong spray pattern.  You can spray a lot of wood pretty quickly.  A hand pump-up or a back-pack sprayer are OK for small quantities, but are too much work for hundreds of BF.  You can rig up a longer hose than the one that comes with the ATV sprayer and wand.  This is something that I learned from Jake Dean, Customsawyer here on the Forum. 

This is the one that I use:

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/countylinereg%3B-deluxe-spot-sprayer-25-gal.  It is $180 without the hose extension. 
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Offline acrosteve

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 06:24:09 AM »
Thanks guys.

The holes are open with the black rings.  Further confirming that they are ambrosia beetles.

I have also started culling more of the wood to the burn pile if it shows lots of evidence.
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Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 04:14:36 PM »
I think the product the Doc and WDH suggest is more soluble and less hassle than Borax, but borax will kill bugs. I've killed off lots of ant hills around the yard over the years. Stone dead.
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Offline acrosteve

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 02:48:10 PM »
Found something interesting.  Wonder if others have similar experience.

In trying to decide which product would be best for me, i am comparing Bora Care(liquid) and Timbor(powder).  The powder seems to be much cheaper, but there appear to be some trade offs.

These are from some Q&A listings on one website that sells both.


Quote
Timbor is a great product, but it does not penetrate or last as long as another product made by the same company called Bora-Care.  Bora-Care is the best wood treatment product available because it penetrates all the way through a piece of wood where Timbor will only penetrate the outer coating.  If you have older wood then you should always use Bora-Care. Bora-Care will also stay in the wood forever, preventing any new infestations for years to come.

Quote
The same company that makes Timbor makes a product called Bora-Care.  It is more expensive, but it is a liquid solution instead of a powder.  The Bora-Care will penetrate deeper in the wood, and protect the wood indefinitely so you would not have to re apply the product ever again.   Also, Bora-Care dries clear and is easier to paint or stain over whereas the Timbor leaves a white powder on the surface and is more difficult to paint or stain. 


Now, I don't know what magic they have going on, but Boracare is a liquid that is mixed from 1:1 - 1:5.  With 1:1 being recommended for existing infestations and 1:5 for preventative treatment.  Mixed, that would range from $36/gallon to $12

Timbor is a powder that is mixed at 1.5 lbs/gallon.  The resultant mixture is also a liquid.  With a 25lb bucket, that works out to be about $6/gallon, or $12 if I double the concentration to 3lbs/gal.


Now, I'm no chemist, but I don't see one penetrating "all the way through a piece of wood", and the other just going in a 1/4" or so.

It seems that if compare the Timbor at 3lbs/gallon to the Boracare at 1:5 ratio, the cost would be the same.  So which would be better?

What says you guys?

Thanks
Timberking B-20

Offline WDH

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 08:41:17 PM »
I found boracare to be too expensive to treat green lumber.  Apparently the boracare has other ingredients other than the disodium octaborate tetrahydrate that causes it to penetrate better, according to their advertisements.   
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Offline acrosteve

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2013, 06:05:20 AM »
I finally quit dragging my feet and ordered 25lb of Timbor.  Probably enough to last me a few years.

I cut a few of the boards on my table saw yesterday and most of the holes have a purple ring around them.
Timberking B-20

Offline matteusz

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2013, 10:48:34 PM »
boracare has glycol added to help it penetrate better. Another product similar to timbor is board defense: 

http://boarddefense.com/index.html

I found it to be cheaper than timbor from some dealers and same formula.

Offline WDH

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 05:03:11 PM »
This Board Defense stuff is the same as Timbor and Solubor.  Exactly the same except for the price.  Board Defense is $50 for 10 pounds.  That is $5 per pound.  Solubor is $50 for 50 pounds.  That is $1.00 per pound. 
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Offline beenthere

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2013, 06:13:12 PM »
WDH
That should be good information for matteusz to have.

Sounds like he is getting hoodwinked into a product is going to cost him some big bucks.
south central Wisconsin
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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 08:02:29 PM »
All three are 98% Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate, the active ingredient.  That is 20.5% boron.  Read the labels. You can google them.   The other 2% is inert ingredients.  You can save a good bit of money if you use any amount of it. 
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Offline Red Clay Hound

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 08:15:02 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, you can mix propylene glycol or ethylene glycol (anti-freeze) with the Solubor solution to make it penetrate better.  I think I read that somewhere.  :P
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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 09:05:49 PM »
That would work if you had an active infestation that you wanted to treat. 
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 12:04:28 AM »
Ethylene glycol on wood is a bad idea as the wood chips and sanding dust will still have the chemical and it is unsafe for humans to breath, get skin contact, etc.  the advice was possibly from someone that thought ethylene glycol was the same as polyethylene glycol 300 or 1000 or 4000.   It is not the same as far as bulking the wood and human safety.

I do not know about propylene glycol.
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Re: Buggs - ID? Temporary?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2013, 10:02:22 AM »
agritrade.com    Chloradane can still be had.     It's not cheap, but it Will take care of your bug problem.     Keep you children , pets , and anything else you don't want dead or sick away from it.
  , READ THE DIRECTIONS AND FOLLOW THEM TO THE LETTER.
Time and Money,  If you have the one, you rarely have the other.

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