What do I charge a customer for these timbers

[mmartone]

I have a guy that wants me to cut him some 8x8x18', and some 3x 10 or 12 x20', all SYP. The logs are 70-80 years old and clear, none to almost no knots. Last but not least, he wants to help but seems capable.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I'm thinking 50 bucks an hour.

[Magicman]

I am thinking what David is thinking.  $50 per hour.

[mmartone]

Oops... forgot to tell you, they are my logs...

[WDH]

If you get on the Internet and look around for 8x8x12 softwood timbers, you will see prices at about $1.00 per BF.  You might look at $1.50 per BF.  That would put a 8x8x12 at $96. 

[mmartone]

That seems aweful cheap... How bout these prices?

http://www.heartwoodlogon.com/products/category/heavy-timbers-and-beams/
white pine

http://www.twincreeksloghomes.com/beams.html

http://www.meadlumber.net/lumber/oversized-lumber/

[Nomad]

That seems aweful cheap... How bout these prices?

http://www.heartwoodlogon.com/products/category/heavy-timbers-and-beams/
white pine

http://www.twincreeksloghomes.com/beams.html

http://www.meadlumber.net/lumber/oversized-lumber/

     mmartone, are you confusing linear feet with board ft?
     Heartwood's prices for 8x8 works out to about $1.80 per bf.
     MeadLumber's shortest piece is 18'.  But in 8x8 their price for that comes out to about $0.90 per bf.

[dboyt]

Check some of the threads on insurance before you agree to let him help you.  Don't make any assumptions.  I have had otherwise competent people do some pretty dumb things around the mill.

[drobertson]

the trick is going to be, make sure you get the job first, regardless of the price, In my opinion whatever they sell for, from where ever they come from should only effect you in regards to the worth, as sold. Pricing is touchy in my opinion,  how much can you get for them for and make it worth your troubles, long ones can be a bugger,  the 3x10's can get crazy, and be a source of troubles for you, with the age of what you have given, this could the pot at the end of the rainbow, sell it,(meaning, trust your work) and be confident, 50 bucks an hour could rob you if you knock them out, if they go crazy, and you have waste, well nuff said,  get the complete list, cut with no one around, (ones that are buying),(this can work if they are hungry, but bite if they are savy) then make your price from there, there are risks with our own timber as it is when buying logs, every tree(log) has to be accessed for it's best use,  this week-end was a review of past jobs that I gave away, so, not to be greedy, and not to give it away, get it cut, and ready for loading, then make your price, based on what the options are for the buyer, after all, the need is there, but so are the buyers options, draw back? if they are coming to you give a cushion on the potential cost, and try to get a commitment and maybe a deposit,  hard call,  tolerances are always a factor not mentioned from the get go,  david

[mmartone]

Thank you all for the quick responses! I give away plenty of labor working on peoples boats so I know what thats like. I would have guessed that even though there is less cutting ( I almost said work) to cut a big cant as opposed to making 1x or 2x's, to me the larger boards have a higher perceived value. Not to mention that you cant just run to HD and buy this kind of lumber, most of its garbage IMHO. If I have done the math right an 8x8x18' at 1.80 bf is $259 right?

[jdtuttle]

8x8x18 = 96BF x 1.80 =172.80
jim

[Magicman]

The handling of large beams/timbers adds value.

I am not following your math.  A 1"X8"X18' = ~12bf.  8 of those (8X8) = 96 for the total bf.  96X 1.8 = $172.80

[red oaks lumber]

how much did the logs cost you per b.f.?  to me $1.8 /bf. is very high. i agree with danny more in the $1 range. or less. all you are doing is sawing them right?

[mmartone]

You guys really have me thinking, if thats really all they are worth, I might just stack them. They didnt cost me anything I had 50 taken down at my house, except for the tree removal company.

[WoodenHead]

I tried selling some 8"x8" white pine to a person putting up a barn.  I was asking $5 per linear foot (that's what I needed out of it to make it worth my while).  He must of thought that was expensive because I haven't heard back from him.

On the other hand, if you are reasonably certain there is no damage to your reputation, charge what the market will bear.   ;D

[Dave Shepard]

Brucer has a breakdown of how he prices timbers somewhere on here that is a good example of dealing with this problem.

I am still working the bugs out of my system. I use a base rate per bd/ft, then add on for every four foot increment over 16'. You can also have modifiers for overly large cross sections.

Cutting for timber framing adds some time as you are always checking to make sure you are perfectly square, and handling timbers requires more effort and care than lumber.

I don't know about SYP, but 1.80 would be really high for softwoods here for short 8x8.

[brdmkr]

When we built out house, the contractor provided a materials list with associated costs.  Anything I provided came off of the bottom line.  I did not have any 8x8, but we did have a heap of 6x12s.  He priced 16' 6x12s at over $550.00 each.  I made sure I cut all of those.  We had need for a couple of 20 footers that he priced at over $700 each.  I cut them too ;D

[drobertson]

the fact is, timbers can really make it worth the while, where 1" is just 1", do not give it away, just don't lose the job for greed's sake, not saying you will, it is tricky at times, a sales approach is always helpful, with numbers to back up your position.   david

[WoodenHead]

I often end up short changing myself rather than being greedy.  :D Someone asked me a couple months back for some 6" x 6" cedar, 22' long.  I did my simple calculations of what cedar costs per bdft, how much I would charge for sawing, and a little bit of markup on both.  I should have done a bit more homework before I quoted a price.  Long story short, the customer had a fantastic deal.  I could have charged double or triple because 22' long 6"x6" eastern white cedar in these parts is very hard to come by.  Relative to everyone around me, I charged too little, even though I covered my costs and made my usual percentage.  Lesson learned.   ;)

I would love to get $1 per board foot for your average pine.  So I too think $1.80/bdft is high.  But, if mmartone feels there is more value in them, and the client accepts that he/she may be paying more than average, it is still a win-win.

[Brucer]

Brucer has a breakdown of how he prices timbers somewhere on here that is a good example of dealing with this problem.

Couldn't find it  :D.

My current pricing, for Douglas-Fir ...

My base rate starts at $1.56 per BF for timbers. Once I get over 8" x 10" the base rate starts to go up.

The base rate applies to timbers up to 20'-6" long, which is the capacity of my original mill.

For every foot over 20'-6", the price increases by $0.06 per BF. This price applies to the entire timber, not just the extra length.

When the length is more than 26'-6" (capacity of the mill plus one extension), there is an additional charge of $0.50 per BF. This also applies to the entire timber.

So if you want me to sell you an 8"x8" timber 32' long, the price will be $1.56 + 12 x $0.06 + $0.50 = $2.78 per BF.

There are a lot of costs associated with long timbers. Much over 20' and they start to overbalance on the hydraulic loader, so I have to bring in the FEL to assist, or build a temporary log deck for bigger orders. Long slabs have to be bucked up into pieces short enough to fit into my standard racks. Long flitches cut off the side also have to be bucked up.

I don't try to charge "what the traffic will bear". I charge a price that will pay for the wood, pay for the extra handling, and help defray my overheads. I need to keep in mind how many BF I can produce in a day, given the extra handling.

My pricing is contained in a price list that I keep in my truck. When someone asks for a quote, I say, "Let's go look at the price list." For unusual items, the customer really has no sense of what a reasonable price is for that item. That means the customer is a little wary of getting "ripped off". So when I pull out the price list, the customer is reassured that I have a standard rate for everyone.

In the end, it is always the customer who determines the value of an item. If I can't produce something for the price the customer wants to pay, then that's the end of the transaction (and no hard feelings on my part).

[thecfarm]

Woodenhead,I had a hard time getting 4"X4" 8 feet long on my cedar on mine land.

[WoodenHead]

Woodenhead,I had a hard time getting 4"X4" 8 feet long on my cedar on mine land.

My dad has a cedar bush that generally hasn't been cut for the last 50 years.  We found seven trees that were 9" at 23'.  Fortunately they were sound.  I counted the rings.  The trees were about 150 years old.

[mesquite buckeye]

Our cedars grow a bit faster than that. Our bigger ones (open grown on better, less degraded soils) from our 1999 planting are now about 16ft tall and 4-6" dbh. I think we can get product from these by 15-20 years, real lumber on pruned clear logs at 30-40 years. ;D

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I just got an order this morning for 8x8 Pine Beams, 10-12-14 long. I quoted $1.50/BF.
The guy never flinched. He said that was the lowest price he'd come across.
I ask for a $500.00 down payment......no problem he said.
Happy,Happy, Happy!

[thecfarm]

I have them places that has not been cut for probably 100 years or more. But I have a hard time finding sound cedar, Loose 4-6-8 feet off a butt that is 18 inches across and it starts to get small fast. My cedar is not all that tall,maybe 60 feet,just guessing,I have never measured one.

[WoodenHead]

I just got an order this morning for 8x8 Pine Beams, 10-12-14 long. I quoted $1.50/BF.
The guy never flinched. He said that was the lowest price he'd come across.
I ask for a $500.00 down payment......no problem he said.
Happy,Happy, Happy!

Is that your normal price?  Or did you push the envelope a bit?   ;)

I wish I could get that around here....  :

[red oaks lumber]

around here the people are either very smart or very cheap cuz even standing on the pedal we won't see a buck a ft. for green pine. so buying 16' pine logs for $300/th. delivered cutting framing lumber say 2x8 for .55 b.f. green.
some one wants a 8x8 16' so now i should gouge and double my price? why i could cut up the logs for 2x8 at .55 and be happy.
the above is just a for instance senario. but really the log cost you the same no matter what you cut from it right? so for me i wont try to bend any customer because i want them and anyone they tell to come back. sometimes alittle less will come back as more. just a differant view.

[drobertson]

It boils down to location, location, location, followed by demand, if we figure in shipping cost these prices are not too far off, so long as the customer picks up the product,  try shipping it for 1.50 a bdft over 500 miles, things will change a little bit,  david

[WDH]

Happy, happy, happy. 

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

Is that your normal price?  Or did you push the envelope a bit?   ;)

I wish I could get that around here....  :

I have to be real HONEST here......in my almost 3 years of milling on my own, this is my first order for beams.
When the customer started talking about 80 plus beams he needed, the first thing that went through my mind was
"DanG.....they were just talking about this on the F.F. Right off the bat, I thought about the price WDH had said, $1.50/Bf. So I just quoted the customer that price without another breath. He said that was very fair.

I am SWAMPED with work right now and will saw him 20 at a time as he picks them up.

[mmartone]

Interesting situation selling those timbers at $1.50 bf and the customer being ok with it, when that happens he would have paid more and been happy. If a customer percieves he is getting a good value he is, you should always get as much you can get for your labor and materials. The timbers surely have more value per bf than lumber, even though they take less cutting.

[red oaks lumber]

i must have missed something, did someone say shippping? i thought we were talking about the price at our own places.
is syp more vaulable than other pine? how much can you buy a load of randoms for per thou?
it has been my experiance that customers like to shop dumb, feeling out your style if you will. i have spent countless hours with "dumb" customers with them leaving with maybe a board or 4x4 or something "not worth my time". later to find out they are a big developer or ther fatherinlaw is ect. the money and work that comes my way is so much more than trying to hit it big on 1 order.  my biggest "dumb" customer has hit the 2 miilion dollar mark already. so you just never know. keep in mind green lumber is a very small part of the buisness. i may not know much but, i know what works well in my buisness, and frankly thats all i care about.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

I buy SYP not random....but I order a load at 10-6 or 12-6. I pay $200/thousand.

Random logs I get from Tree Services, I pay $150/ thousand.

[drobertson]

Red oaks, not misunderstanding, I just said that for the sake of folks that want to sell on the big market, not pick up orders,  these are the best case scenario,  most folks know what they cost by way of the net, and factor in what it would take to get the product to the door,  I was not trying to be obnoxious, just a fact of the matter, I have missed many sales due to shipping costs, had they been able to pick up, the bargain is here,  and for the record, the price poston is showing it's real close to that around here, there is money if the jobs come in, david

[red oaks lumber]

no worries.  most likly timbers that size ,customers aren't going to have shipped. that will be a very local market.

[POSTON WIDEHEAD]

no worries.  most likly timbers that size ,customers aren't going to have shipped. that will be a very local market.

If the $$$$'s right, I'll ship to Wisconsin.  ;D

[mmartone]

So is SYP more valuable? I'm going to say its a better, stronger product than white pine because it grows slower than many others.

I was not saying get a 1 time big payday, just get the most for your effort/materials. Don't sell yourself short.

[drobertson]

Not sure on the structural strength difference between White pine and SYP, but thinking SYP is a lil stronger, this said, I have seen fast growth SYP and slow growth, based on the growth rings, both have there pluses and minuses, in regards to sawing,  the main thing is meeting the customer needs at a price that meets both expectations,  david

[mesquite buckeye]

I have them places that has not been cut for probably 100 years or more. But I have a hard time finding sound cedar, Loose 4-6-8 feet off a butt that is 18 inches across and it starts to get small fast. My cedar is not all that tall,maybe 60 feet,just guessing,I have never measured one.

Ours start out real tapered too, but when we keep them pruned up as they grow, they straighten up real quick, hardly any taper until you get up to the lower branches. I'm thinking  we can grow 10-16' clear logs pretty easily. Most cedar is considered junk and almost nobody puts any effort into them except to cut them down. I think we can do better.

[Brucer]

So is SYP more valuable?

"There are eleven species of southern yellow pine, of which four -- loblolly, shortleaf, longleaf, and slash account for 93% of the standing timber"

"Wood of the southern yellow pines is characterized by its heaviness and hardness; it is the densest and strongest  among the commercially significant softwoods."

Both quotes are from "Identifying Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley.

That puts SYP just ahead of Douglas-Fir & Western Larch, which are the strongest of the Canadian commercial softwoods.

From a structural point of view, there's more than just the species to consider. The grade of a timber depends on the size and location of the knots (small is better) and the slope of the grain (straighter is better). I pay a lot for logs that have small knots, no shake, and only small slope of grain. Most of my timbers would meet the requirements for #1 structural or better.

Remember, the value of the timber is determined by the customer. Two big mistakes in setting prices:
- price your timbers too low, because you don't want people to think you are ripping them off. You won't be doing your customers a favour if you go out of business.
- price your timbers too high, because you mistakenly thought the value somehow corresponded to your costs. It doesn't.

[WDH]

SYP is much stronger than white pine.  The going rate for good SYP logs sold to the large pine mills delivered to the mill is about $350 - $375 Doyle, tree length to an 8" top minimum.  So $200/MBF is a very good price if you are buying.  $200/MBF is about the market value on the stump (stumpage) for good SYP logs.

[mmartone]

Heres some of the pieces I cut the other day, 8x8's on the bottom.



 

[thecfarm]

mesquite buckeye,The cedar that I have grows only on my wet soil and I do mean wet. That is why I have the rotten heart. I bet some are more than 100 years old. All have the rot in the middle,but get better as I go up the tree. I have Northern White Cedar,Thuja accidentalis.  Cedar was a big deal here for the famers for fence post.

[mesquite buckeye]

Our cedars are one of the pioneer species in old field succession. I also plant them since they are the best thing we have going for eroded, acidic soils. My land is rolling, with lots of gullies, so generally it is well drained, and the soils are deep, over 20 feet. The cedars bring up calcium from depth, neutralize the acid soils then are followed by hardwoods. By 40 or 50 years, most of the cedars are inside the forest and being killed by the hardwoods. I keep the hardwoods out of the cedar stands unless they are really good ones like walnut or cherry. I'm getting really good cedars as it is going along when they don't get shaded out, they keep growing really fast. ;D 8) 8) 8)

Pines also work well on these old fields, but unless they get caged when they are small, the deer wipe them out.

Cedars are used for posts here too. Supposed to be good for 75 years.

Missouri folks are a bit post snobby though. Why would you use cedar for a post when you have hedge (Maclura pomifera)? They say a fencepost made from hedge will outlast two holes. :D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8)

[red oaks lumber]

thanks danny for giving a price range. so why is a 8x8 worth twice the money from the same log you cut 2x8 from? i see you guys point of view but, you have less sawing time and expense so in theory it should be cheaper i know its not.  if you saw you should have the means of off loading  a 8x8 just sayin. so why do you guys think it needs to be so high price?
i'll give more of my thinking, we already know the cost of logs.i make t&g paneling so the jacket lumber already has a home, if i sell for alittle less i will attract more customers which inturn means more work which means more money which inturns makes the buissness grow. i make it up on volume. look at the whole picture,which is further than the most current job.
i love playing the devils advocate ;D
at some point some one will see what im sayin come on guys think bigger!!!!!!

[Dave Shepard]

It isn't that the 8x8 is worth more, it's just that you can't get enough for the 2x8. :D 2x is available cheap at the lumber yard, timbers only come from a sawmill.

When I saw a timber I am constantly checking for square, making sure I don't gouge it with the clamp when I turn, or turning on the ends with a LogRite, keeping track of the heart for boxed-heart, and then I have to move the timber off the mill and store it safely until I can load it on the buyers truck. That all takes time. Around here I have a hard time getting what I need, usually I have to go get it myself, as I can't buy from butt to top. I wish I could get what I need for $2-300/mbf delivered and not have to deal with the grades I can't use.

SYP is definitely a much stronger wood than EWP. Although I'm not so sure about those PT timbers at the BORG with less than two rings per inch. :

[red oaks lumber]

dave
i'm saying nothing longer than 20'. longer is worth more for sure.
i guess my market or marketing isnt as good as the rest of the places :( like i said before  oh well it works for me 

[rmack]

1x8x8' easy to come by, 12x12x20'... Not so much

[mesquite buckeye]

We had to cut some mesquite 12 X 12s for a Hotel project. I didn't think we would ever get them done. Just when we thought we had the logs for the job, a defect would show up while milling. They were only like 55" long. Very tough to get. Log has to be big, straight and good all through. That isn't your typical mesquite.

[red oaks lumber]

as the thread keeps going the size of the original beams keeps growing. ;) before long we'll need a 6' dia. redwood to cut the beams from

[mesquite buckeye]

And more bigger equipment. ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Magicman]

I did saw out two 12"X16" x12' mantels for a customer.     I would love to see the finished home that they were for.   ;D

[mesquite buckeye]

That is a fattie. Did you lift it off the mill by yourself? ;D ;D ;D 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[Magicman]

Not hardly, but the FEL on his JD did a good job of lifting and stacking.  I forgot to mention that is was Tulip Poplar.

[Brucer]

... so why is a 8x8 worth twice the money from the same log you cut 2x8 from?

In fact, I wouldn't cut 2x8 from the same log I cut 8x8 from. To stay in business I have to earn a certain amount from each cubic metre of log. I have to sell the 1x off the outside of the log for a little less than 1x costs at the store. Otherwise people will go to the store to get it. I have to sell the 2x from the outside of the log for a little more than the 1x because there's a little more waste when edging a piece of 2" vs edging two thicknesses of 1". If I applied these prices to the entire log, I'd go broke. So in my operation the 8x8's have to generate more income than the 1x and 2x off the sides of the log.

I can handle 4 - 2x8's by hand a lot more easily than 1 - 8x8 of the same length. So the 8x8 means more handling with machinery and that takes away from my sawing time.

Long 8x8's produce a higher proportion of low cost side lumber than short 8x8's.

Around here, selling for a little less doesn't attract more customers. Selling for a little more doesn't scare them away. I'm cheaper than my nearest competition (they've got a lot more overhead) and I'm an hour closer for my local customers.

... look at the whole picture,which is further than the most current job.

I do, all the time. My pricing structure is one of the things I watch like a hawk.

... i love playing the devils advocate ;D

So you're saying the customers are devils ???  :D :D :D

;D