The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

Draw for handbuilt acoustic guitar get your name in


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat



Author Topic: What do you want out of a mill?  (Read 3371 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
What do you want out of a mill?
« on: October 14, 2013, 02:18:58 PM »
Hi,

I'm new to saw mills and am looking to build a bandsaw saw mill within the next year or two.  My background is in mechanical engineering (metalwork, fabrication, repair, etc of jet components, mostly) and, after studying the mechanics, I feel these machines are not beyond the ability of most people to understand and their construction is using methods that have been around for over 100 years.  There is nothing magical about their construction.  I also feel most of the machines out there these days are far too expensive for what you get. 

Frankly, I think I can build a better mouse trap.  stupid_smiley 

The idea I'm germinating is making an inexpensive but modular mill.  As I begin to poke this rabbit hole with a stick, just to see how far it goes, it's immediately apparent that I should consult those that know more than I ever will.  That would be you guys. 

To setup the viewpoint correctly, imagine this: your best ol' friend in the whole world wanted to get a sawmill that was versatile, inexpensive, and durable.  He doesn't fully understand the complexities of milling (thus he isn't sure which features he needs) and is looking to you to help him pick out a mill.  You know he isn't going to get an industrial mill but you don't want him to get junk, either, or a mill that isn't going to be able to handle anything useful.  What features would you look for? 

That is:

What features would you consider must have?


What features would you consider desirable?


What dimensions (max log diameter, bed length, etc) would you figure encompasses 90% of logs most people will encounter?


Basically, I need to be pointed in the right direction on things to research.  I need to know what's important to you, the miller.  I'd like to evaluate all of the dynamics involved in milling, separate the variables, and boil down their functions and how to make them most efficient.  Then, find a way to tie them all in to a modular system that isn't garbage and won't break the bank.  Designed, manufactured, and assembled right here in 'Murica!  Probably at very limited quantities ;)

I realize this may be a bit much but I think I can do it.  Chance favors the prepared mind but fortune also favors the bold.  I don't think those characteristics are mutually exclusive. 

Sorry if this post is too long.  I'd have written a shorter one but I didn't have enough time during lunch break. 

Offline AnthonyW

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 560
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
  • Wannabe hobby sawyer
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 02:29:56 PM »
As I have looked at and for mills for years, I had given up due to money limitations versus the condition and asking price. Recently I managed to find one that I thought had the right price and just the right options.

If I was to build one and had the skills and access to autocad or solidworks as you may, ad was going to build a mill. I would mostly build a unit similar to the Woodmizer LT25/28. I would but leave room in the design to upgrade with minimal to no refabrication of parts. For example, the LT25 I just got everything is hand crank drive. There are no hydraulics. If I was to build the unit from scratch, I would allow for the system to be easily retrofitted/upgradable to hydraulic. This was I can see what options I would like to have or need to be hydraulic and which are fine as a hand-crank drive. Save some money now, and prepare to spend some later.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Offline grweldon

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1238
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Autauga County, Alabama
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Just Stuff! (my personal blog)
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 03:52:24 PM »

I'm new to saw mills and am looking to build a bandsaw saw mill within the next year or two.  My background is in mechanical engineering (metalwork, fabrication, repair, etc of jet components, mostly)

My background is very similar to yours.  I do think that it is possible to build one cheaper and better than the commercially available designs given one has the proper place to do so and the proper tools.  I opted to buy one because at the time I had neither.

You will likely get in to a Ford vs. Chevy debate with your questions... AnthonyW already suggested the single vertical post design.  I would recommend something more along the line of a four-post design.  It's simpler and less engineering is required for a given amount of stiffness.  When you actually get to the point where you use one, you'll thank yourself for going hydraulic right from the beginning, no matter how much it looks like overkill.  Unless you are stationary and have a tractor with a front-end loader, you'll appreciate the fact that you can load a log in seconds with a hydraulic loader versus minutes with a cable winch using the parbuckling method, which is what I use.

Like you say, there's no magic to the designs until you get in to the automatic setworks.  From what I have observed, this adds quite a bit of complexity to the mechanics, but not really to the mechanical design.

Good luck, I'll be watching your thread progress...
Timberking 1400, Ford 3910 Tractor, John Deere 350B Crawler/Loader

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 6891
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 04:12:49 PM »
Hydraulics for loading logs, as mentioned are high on the list, unless you have equipment to use to load the logs.
The next thing that I see that you need hydraulics for is to roll the log over.

I had a guy who I used to saw for, go out and buy his own mill, instead of hiring me to saw for him.
He figured he could do it cheaper.
Well, he bought a fully manual mill, I think it was a WM LT40 but no hydraulics.

He used to hire other workers to do the sawing and paid them by the bdft of lumber produced. Then he would go to the local tree services and buy the big butt logs that they didn't want to try and split for firewood, as they were so big.
He'd then have his guys saw these into lumber for flooring.
Well, after they squared them up they couldn't roll them over with a peavy and it took forever to roll them over with the system that came with a non-hydraulic mill. There is some type of gear-works you turn with a crank handle that lifts the log turner up and rolls the log over. These workers couldn't do it or didn't want to do it. And they couldn't make any money working like this. And most of the ones he hired, quit.

You have to consider how heavy a 24x24"x 8' or 10' or 12' log is when you are designing something to roll it over.

Most all of the sawmills I have ever seen, have it so that the cut face is rolled over against an upright. And then you cut the second face. This is cutting into a bark face again.
If you could arrange it so that the log rolled so that you were cutting into a cut face then there would be less damage to the blade by cutting into dirt in/on the bark of the tree.

I seem to recall that there was only one mill that was shown at a logging and sawmill equipment trade show that rolled logs this way. And I don't remember the brand name.

I'm sure if I'm wrong about there being only one, that others will post about the ones that do roll logs that way.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline AnthonyW

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 560
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
  • Wannabe hobby sawyer
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 04:16:30 PM »

I'm new to saw mills and am looking to build a bandsaw saw mill within the next year or two.  My background is in mechanical engineering (metalwork, fabrication, repair, etc of jet components, mostly)

My background is very similar to yours.  I do think that it is possible to build one cheaper and better than the commercially available designs given one has the proper place to do so and the proper tools.  I opted to buy one because at the time I had neither.

You will likely get in to a Ford vs. Chevy debate with your questions... AnthonyW already suggested the single vertical post design.  I would recommend something more along the line of a four-post design.  It's simpler and less engineering is required for a given amount of stiffness.  When you actually get to the point where you use one, you'll thank yourself for going hydraulic right from the beginning, no matter how much it looks like overkill.  Unless you are stationary and have a tractor with a front-end loader, you'll appreciate the fact that you can load a log in seconds with a hydraulic loader versus minutes with a cable winch using the parbuckling method, which is what I use.

Like you say, there's no magic to the designs until you get in to the automatic setworks.  From what I have observed, this adds quite a bit of complexity to the mechanics, but not really to the mechanical design.

Good luck, I'll be watching your thread progress...

I had not thought of the 2-post versus 4-post aspect. I was thinking of options, overall size, and functionality. I, too, would have to agree that building a 4-post would probably be easier than a 2-post design. Especially for a first time at-home build.
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Offline AnthonyW

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 560
  • Location: New Hampshire
  • Gender: Male
  • Wannabe hobby sawyer
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 04:23:01 PM »
Most all of the sawmills I have ever seen, have it so that the cut face is rolled over against an upright. And then you cut the second face. This is cutting into a bark face again.
If you could arrange it so that the log rolled so that you were cutting into a cut face then there would be less damage to the blade by cutting into dirt in/on the bark of the tree.

I seem to recall that there was only one mill that was shown at a logging and sawmill equipment trade show that rolled logs this way. And I don't remember the brand name.

I'm sure if I'm wrong about there being only one, that others will post about the ones that do roll logs that way.

Jim Rogers

I was wondering why that was and how I could get around it. Just thinking about it quickly and using the LT25 as an example. The blade saws from driver side hitch end of the trailer to the passenger side rear of the trailer. Would in be that hard to saw from the passenger side rear of the trail to the driver side hitch end. That would allow the log to roll the same way but only cut through the bark once. The drawback would be that the sawdutst would all end up on the log load side of the mill (again using the LT25 as an example).
'97 Wood-Mizer LT25 All Manual with 15HP Kohler

Offline Ga Mtn Man

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2120
  • Age: 56
  • Location: North Georgia Mountains
  • Gender: Male
  • Y'all can call me GMM
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 06:18:00 PM »
On medium and large diameter logs, you will waste a lot of lumber and your slabs (waste) will be very heavy if you try to square up the log in one pass per face.
"If the women don't find you handsome they should at least find you handy." - Red Green


2012 LT40HDG29 with "Superized" hydraulics,  2 Logrite cant hooks, home-built log arch.

Offline wormy

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 60
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Tellico Plains Tennessee
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 06:34:20 PM »
Hydraulics is the way to go. When I was looking to buy a mill I was going to get a manual mill because I wasn't planning to make a living with a mill. But one of my friends talked me into spending a little more money to get a used lt40 super hydraulic and I'm glad I did. It is hard enough work with a hydraulic mill .why add more work.
    I'm not an engineer or anything nor do I know alot about hydraulics but I always wondered why didn't someone build a mill that the blade ran from a hydraulic motor to reduce bearing load when kicking in the blade.

Offline Den-Den

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Lufkin Texas
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
    • Dennis Wood Art
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 06:43:07 PM »
I am in the beginning stage of building a mill, my goals are:
* Reasonable cost
* Wide cut capability ( ~ 40")
* possibility to add hydraulic functions as budget allows

I have some fabrication skills and will be able to build a machine for less than I could buy one with similar capability.  The money I save will not be much on a per hour basis but I like building things.

I have taken logs to a local guy in the past and his charges are very reasonable.  I have also cut coffee table slabs from crotch sections with a chainsaw, that was not fun and it wasted a lot of wood.  I want to be able to make specialty cuts like that with my mill, do not expect high production rates or lengths over 12 ft.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

Offline Banjo picker

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2618
  • Location: Iuka Ms
  • Gender: Male
  • A goal without a plan is just a dream. Elbert H.
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 08:21:48 PM »

Most all of the sawmills I have ever seen, have it so that the cut face is rolled over against an upright. And then you cut the second face. This is cutting into a bark face again.
If you could arrange it so that the log rolled so that you were cutting into a cut face then there would be less damage to the blade by cutting into dirt in/on the bark of the tree.

I seem to recall that there was only one mill that was shown at a logging and sawmill equipment trade show that rolled logs this way. And I don't remember the brand name.

I'm sure if I'm wrong about there being only one, that others will post about the ones that do roll logs that way.

Jim Rogers

Cooks.... Banjo
Cooks AC 36--Prentice 210C--Morgan edger--Kubota M7040 with loader--Case 580 K with extendahoe--Case 850C dozer--Int 1700 series twin cylinder dump/log/flatbed truck--logging arch--2 Logrite mill sp.--Cat claw sharpening system--And a bulldog to make sure it all stays here.

Offline dgdrls

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2561
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Central NY
  • Gender: Male
  • Learning the Art of Milling Logs, Lucas 8/27
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 08:27:41 PM »
Hi,

I'm new to saw mills and am looking to build a bandsaw saw mill within the next year or two.  My background is in mechanical engineering (metalwork, fabrication, repair, etc of jet components, mostly) and, after studying the mechanics, I feel these machines are not beyond the ability of most people to understand and their construction is using methods that have been around for over 100 years.  There is nothing magical about their construction.  I also feel most of the machines out there these days are far too expensive for what you get. 

Frankly, I think I can build a better mouse trap.  stupid_smiley 

The idea I'm germinating is making an inexpensive but modular mill.  As I begin to poke this rabbit hole with a stick, just to see how far it goes, it's immediately apparent that I should consult those that know more than I ever will.  That would be you guys. 

To setup the viewpoint correctly, imagine this: your best ol' friend in the whole world wanted to get a sawmill that was versatile, inexpensive, and durable.  He doesn't fully understand the complexities of milling (thus he isn't sure which features he needs) and is looking to you to help him pick out a mill.  You know he isn't going to get an industrial mill but you don't want him to get junk, either, or a mill that isn't going to be able to handle anything useful.  What features would you look for? 

That is:

What features would you consider must have?


What features would you consider desirable?


What dimensions (max log diameter, bed length, etc) would you figure encompasses 90% of logs most people will encounter?


Basically, I need to be pointed in the right direction on things to research.  I need to know what's important to you, the miller.  I'd like to evaluate all of the dynamics involved in milling, separate the variables, and boil down their functions and how to make them most efficient.  Then, find a way to tie them all in to a modular system that isn't garbage and won't break the bank.  Designed, manufactured, and assembled right here in 'Murica!  Probably at very limited quantities ;)

I realize this may be a bit much but I think I can do it.  Chance favors the prepared mind but fortune also favors the bold.  I don't think those characteristics are mutually exclusive. 

Sorry if this post is too long.  I'd have written a shorter one but I didn't have enough time during lunch break.


Welcome aboard Wufnu,

Interesting thread,  I do think you can build a one-off machine for less $. 
It would be interesting to see just how much can/could be saved
when factoring in labor cost and materials and making a side by side comparison.

Look forward to seeing what you come up with

DGDrls
                     

Offline pineywoods

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5001
  • Age: 82
  • Location: Marion, Louisiana
  • Gender: Male
  • Engineering analysis-just sittin thinkin about it
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 08:55:55 PM »
Wufnu, You are going to find that designing and building your own mill just ain't as simple as it looks. Every piece of a bandmill is a compromise. Changing one thing to get a desired feature will almost always mess up something else. It's a huge juggling act to get a workable design. Example, you desire the blade to enter the log on a cut surface rather than through bark, certainly desireable. Downside, that requires a robust and expensive clamping system to hold the log in place so the blade doesn't pull the log sideways. Also, keep in mind that all the factory built have evolved over many years. (The first woodmizer built in 1983) Changes and added features were frequently suggestions from end users. Not to discourage you, if that's what you want to do, I tip my hat to you. I originally wanted to build my own, but I found a usable used mill for about the same price as materials to build my own...
1995 Wood Mizer LT 40, Liquid cooled kawasaki,homebuilt hydraulics. Homebuilt solar dry kiln.  Woodmaster 718 planner, Kubota M4700 with homemade forks and winch, stihl  028, 029, Ms390
100k bd ft club.Charter member of The Grumpy old Men

Offline drobertson

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 8014
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Missouri
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 09:08:47 PM »
I may have missed it in all the previous posts, but the question as to portable vs stationary would play a big part.  And will this be a one shot deal? or a possible production build?  Sounds like fun to me, if the funds are available and there's time for fabrication.  Lots of planning for sure,   I'll be watching this one,  be glad to offer any input I can,    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2013, 10:46:19 PM »
Thank you all for the information thus far.  I hope people continue to add what they think is valuable in a mill! 

This thread wasn't so much to debate and select what is "best" but rather so that I can see what options are out there, what is really important, and different design considerations.  I know what I know but, more importantly, I know what I don't know.  That's why I've come here. 

If I've only learned one thing it's that there's more than one way to skin a cat.  I've see so many different ways of doing the same thing.  For example, rolling a log on the sled.  You can use a peavey, a chain, a hydraulic "punch" arm (I don't know what they're called, officially), etc.  I've also come up with a few mechanisms, myself.  Can an inexpensive mechanism be made, that doesn't use hydraulics, to turn a 1500lb log on the sled?  Yes, yes it can.  I enjoy solving problems; they're fun! 

This is why I'm also studying the designs already out there.  Learning from mistakes is one of life's best teachers... but, in my opinion, it's better to learn from the mistakes of others.  The more I view what's already out there, what people want, and new ways of doing things the better a product I can make.  I view this knowledge like tools in a tool box.  The more tools I have, the more I can do and at a higher level of quality. 

I will be doing research for at least a year.  I will use that time to perfect my welding and metalwork capabilities and do more research.  Once I can perform the manufacturing processes at a high level, I will make a saw mill for myself.  I plan to use it to cut wood for a shed (16' x 16').  After that, if the mill is at least "decent", I'll sell it in the classifieds and use the profit (if any) to build another iteration to improve on the first.  Rinse, repeat.  Once I feel I have a quality product, I may begin selling them as a company.  That's a whole other complicated issue and I'll have to think long and hard before going that route.  I do have some advantages that others don't, however, so it's a definite possibility. 

Of course, I may find the margins too thin and just end up buying one.  I have to say, I'm very impressed with the Cooks machines.  I just watched a 40 minute video where one of the founders went over all of the features of one of their mills.  I added quite a few tools to my toolbox with that one.  The machine, at first, seemed overly complex but it was obvious why they were done the way they were.  I appreciate the versatility they've put into their product.  E.g. the electronic lowering/lifting pulleys that can also be turned by hand.  I also like their tensioning system, using a spring constant to get consistent tension.  Simple but effective. 

Speaking of which, if anyone has any digital manuals to their mill, would you PM me or leave a link here?  I'd like to acquire some manuals so I can learn how they are operated, features used on different brands, etc.  That is, of course, if the manual/user agreement doesn't expressly forbid it.  That's a common thing in other industries so might want to check that the manual doesn't forbid you from distributing it, first.  I haven't, thus far, run across any that are posted on the manufacturer's website. 

I'll continue to check in so please continue giving your opinions.  I love'em!  I appreciate that so many of you are keen to see what I come up with.  However, I hope you're a patient lot.  I work at a deliberate pace.  Plus, I have a full time job and lots of "Honey Do" items  :D

Thanks again, everyone!

JP

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 10:47:27 PM »
Oh, I forgot to mention, it would definitely be portable.  Just answering, since someone asked.  The larger machine manufacturers have already made their niche and have found a market with the money to spend.  That type of machine will be far beyond my small scale operation so, for now, it's not even on the radar.  I'm going to stick to the smaller stuff ;)

Offline Brad_S.

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2008
  • Location: Victor, New York
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 10:59:30 PM »

Most all of the sawmills I have ever seen, have it so that the cut face is rolled over against an upright. And then you cut the second face. This is cutting into a bark face again.
If you could arrange it so that the log rolled so that you were cutting into a cut face then there would be less damage to the blade by cutting into dirt in/on the bark of the tree.

I seem to recall that there was only one mill that was shown at a logging and sawmill equipment trade show that rolled logs this way. And I don't remember the brand name.

I'm sure if I'm wrong about there being only one, that others will post about the ones that do roll logs that way.

Jim Rogers

Cooks.... Banjo
Timber Harvester, the Cook's mill's look-a-like cousin, did as well.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." J. Lennon

Offline jim blodgett

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
  • Location: Yelm, WA
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2013, 11:09:04 PM »
Well, if you're talking bandsaw, there's one thing I think SHOULD be pretty easy to add, that I have never seen on a mill or heard anyone else mention. 

A circular saw mounted on a carriage that slides up and down, and left and right, mounted above the main blade of the saw.

The idea is to set the circular saw to edge one side of the slab you cut off the top of your log as you work down to cant size.  Then of course, that slab with one straight edge could be easilly run through a table saw to whatever width you wanted.

As most bandsaw mills cut now, you have to edge that first straight line some other way, and it takes time.

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2013, 11:14:03 PM »
Good idea, Jim!  I haven't seen that feature, either.  I'd been curious about how one makes boards out of slabs accurately when both sides are rough.  It'd be a challenge to line it up with the band saw blade, though.  Just another problem to figure out!  I like it.  Perhaps there's a reason that the other companies haven't added this feature BUT if it's a feature that will attract customers, who am I to judge? 

Thanks!

JP

Offline ljohnsaw

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Happily retired... Working harder than ever!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2013, 11:53:43 PM »
Very interesting thread and will be following it.  I'm in the latter stages of my own build.  Upon the strong advice of others here, I build heavy duty.  So heavy, that each of my 16' sections will be about 750# each!  I am building a 4 poster on a 2x4 1/4" steel tube with a 2x3 1/4" angle iron rails.  The head can clear a 52" wide log and my cut width is 42".  Due to my need, I'm making two 16' and one 8' sections so I can mix and match my bed size.  I need some 34' beams and will be doing a lot of 20' stuff.

The biggest complaint I see here is the bunk spacing.  You need bunks close enough for short logs/crotches when you have them.  But, if spaced, say every 4', you have another problem.  If you want to level a long log because of taper, the numerous bunks get in the way.  To level the quickest, you want the TWO bunks towards the center of the log and you only need to raise the low end a little - but the other bunks need to be out of the way.

I "solved" this by copying another idea (forget who at the moment).  I have four bunks that are moveable anywhere on my rails (well, almost anywhere).  If I have a long beam I'm making, I can support it with all four.  If I'm leveling a log, I'll only use two.

Well, that's the plan, anyhow.

My last task is to finalize the blade tension system.  I want to have a "quick release" so I can set it once but release it at the end of the day and reset the next day with a flip of a lever.  At least I think that would be a time saver...
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 54' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Brucer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4189
  • Location: Rossland, BC
  • Gender: Male
  • The Kootenay Sawyer - retired (for now)
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 01:36:18 AM »

What features would you consider must have?
What features would you consider desirable?
What dimensions (max log diameter, bed length, etc) would you figure encompasses 90% of logs most people will encounter?


Before I can give you any meaningful answers I need to know what your business model is going to be. Full time to earn a living, part time to earn some extra cash, hobby work for yourself? Where are you? What products might you want to make on it? What shape are you in?
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw with two 6' extensions.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand wrong answers."

Online Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12470
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 02:58:29 AM »
Quote
What dimensions (max log diameter, bed length, etc) would you figure encompasses 90% of logs most people will encounter?

Depends where you live. Some places trees barely grow to 12" dbh. Locally we can have cypress and eucalyptus up over 6 ft dia, or 6" cedar top logs...

But as mentioned mill designs are compromises. With a band mill, increasing the throat width means you need to increase the blade tension, that means a stronger heavier frame, and then a wider band to handle the extra stress. Then you need a bed that will support (and turn?) those monster logs. Pretty soon you end up with a WM1000, which isn't cheap, or exactly portable any more.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline customsawyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 4693
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Rentz, Ga.
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • The Custom Sawyer
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 04:19:39 AM »
I am not trying to discourage you on this. Several years back I was needing a small trailer for hauling my lawnmower. Not a complicated build by any means. After several weeks of investigating I discovered that I would spend more in material than I would to buy a trailer already built. :o The reason for this is that the companies that build trailers buy their material in bulk and get a discount. This might be one thing to consider when building a sawmill. You might be better off to buy a used mill and modify it than to build one from scratch.
Two LT70s and to much other support equipment to mention.
www.thecustomsawyer.com

Offline thecfarm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 26722
  • Age: 56
  • Location: Chesterville,Maine
  • Gender: Male
  • If I don't do it,it don't get done
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 06:49:30 AM »
ljohnsaw,the rails on what you are building sounds like my Thomas,right down to the moveable bunk. Good job.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Seaman

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Old Fort N.C
  • Gender: Male
  • Still learning as hard as I can go.
    • Share Post
    • Uniquewoodcuts.com
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 08:04:56 AM »
Like Ianab and someone else said, depends on your business model and what size logs you will be dealing with.

 

 


 

 


I honestly can not envision a better mill FOR WHAT I DO than the LUCAS.I cannot see building such a mill for less than it cost, but then I am not a mechanical guru either.

It can cut slabs or lumber from trees 6ft dia. and who know how long with extra post and rails.
Cut and edge boards without resawing
Plane these massive slabs
Sand same slabs
Cut beveled siding
Is portable in a pickup
Easy to maintain
Quarter saw without quartering the log

I am sure I left something out that I am not familiar with.
With the size logs I normally cut we don't concern ourselves with kerf so much
I am not trying to start the band-swingmill debate, and I think this is a great thread, but you asked for opinions.
Good luck with your research, I am sure you can design and build exactly what you want with a lot of hard work. Looking forward to following the thread.
Frank   
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

Offline nk14zp

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 280
  • Location: Down East Maine.
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2013, 08:34:41 AM »
This is my dream saw mill and it's homemade.(And no it's not mine.)


Uploaded on Oct 17, 2011
Portable, circular sawmill with 48" headsaw, 26" topsaw and 14" vertcal edgers. 100% self contained with 230hp JD power unit; live deck in and out; hyd folding wings; 3 hyd leveling legs (always remains on flat plane); self digging wheels (hydraulically digs itself into the ground for comfortable working height). Quick set-up time (under 30 minutes). Unit weight 24,000 lbs.
Belsaw 36/18 duplex mill.
Belsaw 802 edger.
http://belsawsawmills.freeforums.org/

Offline Dave Shepard

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 10787
  • Age: 2013
  • Location: Alford Massachusetts
  • Gender: Male
  • Geometrically proportional
    • Share Post
    • My homepage
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2013, 11:27:05 AM »
There was a company that experimented with edger blades on a bandmill, I think the name was Western Sawyer. The problem was that you had less than an 1/8" margin of error to align the edger blades. Also you would have to have a way adjust for taper horizontally, in addition to vertically.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"Logrite!

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2013, 12:00:50 AM »
Howdy, folks!

John, that's a good idea!  I went through your posts but didn't see any build pictures.  Do you have a website or do you mind sharing pictures of your build thus far?  I'd love to see what you've done. 

For those of you asking my business plan, I'm afraid that's a bit of cart leading the horse.  That isn't to say that I haven't written down some ideas but what a punch to the kisser it'd be to have a business all planned out with no product to sell.  That is, I might not be able to make a quality product.  I might not be able to compete with others on pricing.  There's a list of things that could derail any preliminary plans I've made thus far and they'll have to be evaluated on a case by case basis as I progress.  I will be able to prototype in inventor to save some time but I'm estimating at least 3 years before I have a product. 

Even with a good design, a business is a complicated thing.  The only real advantage I have is that I speak Chinese (I'm not Chinese), and I have two Chinese brothers in law.  One of them owns a mine and the other owns a few manufacturing businesses and has, literally, thousands of business contacts.  I.e. I'm fairly certain I can get quality steel, possibly made to SAE AMS specifications, at a price that the others simply cannot.  On the other hand, I don't even know if the other companies are using certified metals.  I doubt it.  Certified = more $$$.  Construction will be done to me, per SAE/AMS/MIL spec (just because I know them, already). 

Immediate thoughts are to keep it small scale and market it purely towards hobbyists and those looking to build their own homes/buildings/etc.  I'm thinking 28" diameter max, 8' sled sections.  My mills will be primarily aimed towards making boards with potential to add attachments/modifications for slab or swing blade mills.  Another focus will be on ease of use and portability.  I could focus more or expand into other areas of the industry.  I'll wait until I really know what I'm doing, and understand the market better, before I really nail down my scope, make my production design, and start selling things. 

It will certainly be a part time venture, to start, if I even get that far.  That's the entire reason I ended up here.  We're a single income family (wife is Chinese; her degrees and work experience are teaching English.  She's teaching Chinese at the local college to the tune of $200 a month...) and we're getting by but I don't want to get by.  I want to get ahead.  I started late, so to speak, and I've got some catching up to do.  I've been searching for a second job for 3-4 months and I just can't find one.  I've discovered that businesses don't hire engineers part time and even if they did they close shop when I'm getting off work.  I branched out.  I'm talking retail, fast food, call center, whatever and I'd take it.  Nothing.  That dog won't hunt; I need more work.  This lead me to deciding to learn a skill so that I can do something on the side.  I decided to learn to weld.  It's a) a great skill to have and, b) potential to earn a little side income. 

Following that, I also need to build some structures: garage, shed, etc.  I saw the price of wood, and I've built enough garages/decks/rooms/sheds (lots) to know that the Lowes/Home Depot/etc sells crap lumber (I don't know if they sell the good stuff to contractors or what), so I thought I could mill my own.  I'm fairly poor, after all.  About 5 weeks ago, I went looking for a mill rental and found there are none.  Too dangerous, I guess.  Me, being the kind of guy I am, figured I could build one and went looking online.  If I could build one, I can likely recoup my costs in lumber and possibly even mill on the side.  Then I went looking to see how much they were being sold for, out of curiosity. 

What I found were companies with, assumed, 10-100 (or a lot more!) employees (a variety of companies out there).  They almost all likely have an in-house machine shop.  Full time employees and the costs that brings.  Large buildings.  Lots of tools.  Lots of other costs.  These things all equal to very large overhead AND they still have to make a good profit.  I have none of those issues.  I think I can build equal or better for much less.  I don't have to sell a thousand units a year to meet costs, like they do.  I can sell one.  Or none.  I've got a good job, I'm doing all right ;)  Perhaps, some day, I will have those issues too.  Then I would be just another brand among a sea of brands.  Lets face it, these companies have been selling mills for a long times.  Many of them, for decades.  If they could sell cheaper, at a larger volume, they probably would.  Either the demand isn't high enough or they can't make them fast enough but the point is that they are good at what they do.  Probably very, very good.  I have no delusions of going head to head with them. 

For me, I'm starting because I want a mill.  There is my first goal.  Even if I can't make money, it's something I enjoy.  Designing and building things, that is.  It's also something I'd like to have.  Even if there is never any business, I want a good mill.  I'd like to build a home, actually.  Quite frankly, besides the $45,000 in student loans, I find having debt to be a real burden on my mind.  I can never feel secure.  I don't like it.  So, step one, get a mill.  What happens after that, time will tell.  I'm pretty good at fabrication but this is my first swim in metalwork.  I have a lot of skills to gain before I can get into this seriously.  I have 3 about years to learn what I need to learn.  No better time to start than now, I figure. 

That's much longer than I wanted it to be.  I hope it answered your questions about my motivation and ideas.  I hope that by writing that book (hah) I've earned the right to listen to what you appreciate in a mill ;) 


Custom, that's a concern I share.  I've run into that, before, also.  Economies of scale! 


Seaman, I really like the Lucas design.  The reason I like it so much is that 1) it's simple, 2) it's adaptable, and 3) it's very fast.  The only concerns I have are about leveling the log or how you handle tapers.  I'd be even more interested if they had pricing available.  In my industry, "call for a quote" usually means "a lot".  By watching their videos, and more on Youtube, I've pretty much worked out how the things work.  The only curiosity I still have is what kind of U-join they're using on those swing blades and how the positioning controls work.  I'll look for more examples, later. 


Nk14zp, that is a monster mill.  It's not often you get someone with knowledge of hydraulics, metalwork, large scale milling, and MCU programming.  That's a pretty massive undertaking.  Built by a single guy?  Family?  Business?  I watched the entire video.  Fascinating from beginning to end!


Dave, that's the immediate concern I had with an edger attachment(s).  I'm not sure how much of an issue the taper would be; quickest fix for that would be to start with a squared cant  :D

Offline ljohnsaw

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3091
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Northern California
  • Gender: Male
  • Happily retired... Working harder than ever!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2013, 12:50:38 AM »
Wufnu,

No, I don't have a build thread yet.  I'm waiting until I have enough to post - there are so many awesome threads on mills that others have built that mine is a bit amateurish by comparison (IMO).  I want to get it up and running to prove it to myself first.  I keep thinking any day now (since I'm retired and have all the time in the world), but somehow it takes much longer than anticipated!  :D

At this point, I have $2,250 into it and very little to spend if my motor is powerful enough and doesn't need to be replaced.

You mention 8' bed sections.  With the head taking up two to three feet, the first section doesn't get you too far!  I'd say the base track should be 16' with the ability to slide a set of wheels under and slide in a tow tongue to make it mobile.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 54' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline giant splinter

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 906
  • Location: Newport,Washington
  • Gender: Male
  • Pacific Northwest
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2013, 02:28:50 AM »
Chevy Impala sedan curb weight 3900# +/-  loaded $40,000

Wood-Mizer LT40HD curb weight 3900# +/- loaded $26,000

Why try to build one? and could you save money by building either one?

Sound like a couple dumb questions ? .......... Think about it. :D
roll with it

Offline Seaman

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 955
  • Age: 54
  • Location: Old Fort N.C
  • Gender: Male
  • Still learning as hard as I can go.
    • Share Post
    • Uniquewoodcuts.com
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2013, 06:43:00 AM »
WUFNU, next time you are in NC stop by!
Lucas dedicated slabber
Woodmizer LT40HD
John Deere 5310 W/ FEL
Semper Fi

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2013, 07:40:05 AM »
John, I know what you mean.  I've done that with almost everything I've built in the past, haha.  Eventually, though, I figured out that my failures are just as educational as my successes so I started posting them from beginning to end.  Every screw up just made it more entertaining for the readers ;)  Good point about the bed!  I should have pointed out that the stock bed would be 16'.  I want to be able to lift the end and put an axle under it so that it's mobile, as you pointed out. 

Splinter, best way to make a fortune building (restoring) old cars is to start with a large fortune!  They're somehow both simple but complex.  Simple in theory, complex in execution.  If you mean a modern one, up the complexity by a lot and you can forget the "simple in theory" part, haha.  Plus, they're hard to make.  Just one mold to make the plastic buttons for the A/C cost more than 3 Impalas  :D  As far as I know, most of the things required to make a band saw mill of any complexity are commercially available.  Since you're going by weight, I guess that price would make sense if you had to buy and then melt down an old (restored) Impala to make the steel for your LT40.  For $26,000, I'd rather buy one of those new Camaros  ;D  By the way, have you seen the new Corvette?  It's so sexy...

Seaman, I'd love to!  I don't expect to be out that way, though.  Next time you're near Lagrange, GA, gimme a holler!  Same goes for the rest of you. 

JP

Offline WoodenHead

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 629
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Toledo, Ontario
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2013, 07:50:30 AM »
Wufnu,

One of the best ways to know how to build a better machine is to know how to operate one.  I would suggest (if this is possible) to saw on a number of different sawmills.  Perhaps there folks on the forum who can offer some of their time.

I like Woodmizer mills (particularly the LT28 and up).  Everything has been thought out well (over time of course).  However, I think one area where Woodmizer can improve is to make the mill modular enough to be able to upgrade from a manual mill to a hydraulic and from a standard hydraulic to a super (all engine options) with no difficulty.  That would be challenging, but I think their business model is presently the biggest obstacle.   ;)  Norwood is already working towards that direction.

+1 to what Customsawyer said. 

Offline rmack

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 433
  • Age: 59
  • Location: South end of the Cariboo Plateau
  • Gender: Male
  • Woodmizer owner
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2013, 08:54:06 AM »
This is my dream saw mill and it's homemade.(And no it's not mine.)


Uploaded on Oct 17, 2011
Portable, circular sawmill with 48" headsaw, 26" topsaw and 14" vertcal edgers. 100% self contained with 230hp JD power unit; live deck in and out; hyd folding wings; 3 hyd leveling legs (always remains on flat plane); self digging wheels (hydraulically digs itself into the ground for comfortable working height). Quick set-up time (under 30 minutes). Unit weight 24,000 lbs.

Wow! that thing is cutting some lumber. It would definitely be some serious money, but that's a whole 'nother league compared to bandmills. :)
the foundation for a successful life is being able to recognize what to least expect the most... (anonymous)

Welder Bob
2012 LT40HDSD35 Yanmar Diesel Triple
1972 Patrick AR-5
Massey Ferguson GC2410TLB Diesel Triple
Belsaw Boat Anchor

Offline dboyt

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Southwest Missouri
  • Gender: Male
  • Log On!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2013, 09:59:41 AM »
Modular mill with hydraulic options, movable clamps and stops, easily added crossbunks, track extensions, can be set up to cut from either the clean side or the bark side, solid frame and carriage, developed by someone wanting a good, low cost mill to build his home.  Norwood.
Norwood MX34 Pro portable sawmill, 8N Ford, Lewis Winch

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2013, 02:59:37 PM »
WH, yah, they've got all of their facilities geared towards a current product.  Increasing modularity of their mills would mean a complete redesign of their fabrication process.  I agree, that's what I'd like to do.  I don't know of any mill owners in the area, however.  I'm sure there are some out there, I just haven't found them yet.  That's why I asked if anyone had digital versions of their mill's manual that they could send me.  I could mentally go through the motions.  It still leaves a lot to be desired, in terms of knowing how they're run, but it's a start.  It'd also let me figure out how their features work. 

DBoyt, you're the second person to mention Norwood.  I like their features.  Seems like a great mill.  I like their philosophy.  I wouldn't call them particularly affordable, though.  Affordable is always a very relative term.  Compared to other mills?  Yah, probably.  They've definitely got a nice markup.  E.g. "Want us to add an axle, 2 tires, 8 footings, and trailer lights to the bed of your five grand LM29?  $2000.  How about two rolling beams and a manual winch to load/roll your logs?  Thousand bucks." Reminds me of Porsche; their lower tier vehicles are very affordable (compared to, say, a Carrera)... until you see what you don't get and how much those options costs.  Then again, that all makes sense as a business.  Norwood's been in the game a long time.  It's now a larger company and they have a lot of overhead.  I think their prices are very fair, based on what they probably have to pay.  Definitely a lot to be learned here!  I've already ordered a catalog/dvd from them.

Thanks to everyone for your input so far and for introducing me to some brands I hadn't found yet.  I have so much to learn. 

Offline SawyerBrown

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1092
  • Age: 61
  • Location: Central Illinois (Peoria)
  • Gender: Male
  • If you're gonna be stupid, ya gotta be tough!
    • Share Post
    • Saw It There
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2013, 03:23:29 PM »
This is my dream saw mill and it's homemade.(And no it's not mine.)


Uploaded on Oct 17, 2011
Portable, circular sawmill with 48" headsaw, 26" topsaw and 14" vertcal edgers. 100% self contained with 230hp JD power unit; live deck in and out; hyd folding wings; 3 hyd leveling legs (always remains on flat plane); self digging wheels (hydraulically digs itself into the ground for comfortable working height). Quick set-up time (under 30 minutes). Unit weight 24,000 lbs.

Wow! that thing is cutting some lumber. It would definitely be some serious money, but that's a whole 'nother league compared to bandmills. :)

Wow, that's one sawin' machine! 

How's it do on nails? 

Wufnu, another thing to consider is your target customers?  Gotta deal with non-wood products hidden until you find them?  May drive you to one sawing decision vs another.
Pete Brown, Saw It There LLC.  Wood-mizer LT35HDG25, Farmall 'M', 16' trailer.  Custom sawing only (at this time).  Long-time woodworker ... short-time sawyer!

Offline longtime lurker

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Location: QLD, Australia
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2013, 08:26:23 AM »
The europeans have been putting single and/or twin edgers on bandmills for a long time. But we're talking serious bandmills there... wide bands, complex controls, big log capacities, high throughput... and prices to match.
Wimmer has a pretty effictive system, so does pelous, couple of the italian manufactures, plus whatever is coming out the old eastern bloc.


http://www.mebor.eu/main.php?ids=160&t=0&lang=3

bottom vid shows an edger in operation on a "small" 4 inch band. I wants oneeeeee :D
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline leroy in kansas

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
  • Age: 73
  • Location: McPherson, KS
  • Gender: Male
  • Don't squat with your spurs on.
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2013, 07:32:13 PM »
Wufnu,

If you want a "REAL" challange, forget about the band, forget about circle blades and come up with something that doesn't require these things.

A few years ago no one immiganed an improvement on the gas torch for cutting metal. Look what we use now. Plasma, Water, and various other methods.

If you can come up with a truly revolutional idea, you will be the MAN

Offline Wufnu

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: Lagrange, GA
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: What do you want out of a mill?
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2013, 11:51:59 PM »
Sawyer, on that mill I'm willing to bet the nails just sharpen the blade  :D  I think the best way to save your blades is the same method used in many other tasks: prevention.  I'd wager it's faster, easier, and cheaper to scan a tree with a metal detector before cutting it down than it is to replace/install blades.  Good chance any metal will be at or below arms reach on the tree.  Then again, you don't design a product for yourself but rather for your customer.  I'll think on it.

Lurker, that's a great idea.  I've already worked out a way I can add an edger to the system for about $100-$150 in extra materials, excluding consumables (blades, etc).  Completely adjustable, but manually adjusted.  Automatic adjustment will add big $$.  I really need to get a notebook to jot these ideas down. 

Leroy, I'd love to come up with something new.  It seems unlikely, as this is a pretty mature technology that's been around for hundreds of years (blades, not portable band saw mills).  As you said, I think it would have to be a completely new method.  Revolutionary.  That seems very unlikely but that certainly won't stop me from trying.  Never has before, anyway.  Only thing I can think of at the moment involves very high heats: laser, or a tungsten wire at about 5000 F.  Both will ignite the wood, obviously, haha.  Woods are composites which makes things tricky.  Could use water... but it would be so slow that a regular saw would be better.  I dunno, man... saws are pretty simple tech, effective, inexpensive, and fast.  I'll keep thinking on it.


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

 


Powered by EzPortal