Is the chain cutting good???

[Woodhog]

Is the only indicator af a very good cutting chain the length of the shavings throw out by the saw...???

How long should they be if the chain is cutting real good, will the length vary in different species of wood for the same sharpness of the chain???

[qatanlison]

Green wood will render longer chips, as well as different speices will. Take a new chain, it's usually pretty sharp and try to remember how it feels in the wood and check the chips.
The first touch up of the chain ought to make it sharper, smoother and through longer chips than the original factory sharpening.

Good luck.

O

[tony_marks]

 the best indicator of an proper chain is how she cuts.. if its rite u will know it.. jmo

[slowzuki]

A brand new Stihl chain is sharper/cuts better than what I can do by hand.  I can almost get as good with Dad's Granberg File o ma Jig or whatever that thing is.

I cut a spread of different wood in a matter of minutes so chip size isn't a good measure.

I find when the chain is well and evenly sharpened, it is smoother when cutting, less vibrating/grabbing.  Your fuel economy goes way up.  Your fatigue goes down.

Ken

[Preston]

Well hhhmmmmm....... Wood chips lol I've heard lots of guys say OOHH WOW my chain throughing big long curls it must be dam sharp! But the truth is its not! wood chips will give you a little idea but its all on feel and how your saw feeds itself into the wood! If you can hold on the pistol grip and just give it with out pushing on it or any pressure and the saw feeds itself nicely and no bogging down then you got a good sharp chain and it cutts straight! But from learning from the old professional timber fallers and haveing a open mind I learned allot about chain sharpening! A dull chain can cost you money out there on the job when your in big wood bushelling!!

[qatanlison]

But then again, a dull chain will never leave you with long, nice chips...

O

[Preston]

Very true!! ;)

[qatanlison]

lowzuki,

You ought to put a few hours on filing - and experience the revelation of a truly sharp chain! I take it you use a fairly new file and a file of the right size? If you really put an effort to it and make the angles right + the raker-height - you'll start filing a new-bought chain before putting it on the saw, 'cos the factory grind leaves a lot to ask for...

Q

[slowzuki]

Quant:

Definately would like to learn well.  I use the correct file in good shape and I have the guide plate and depth gauge filing guides.  Just never seems as good as a new Stihl chain.

I used my dad's Granberg file-o-jig thing and it did almost as good as factory but takes forever!

I'm thinking a cheapo electric sharpener with a good wheel should speed the process up.

Part of the problem is what I was working at, clearing brush in the snow, involved hitting a lot of rocks.  One side of the chain was always getting damaged and I'd have to sharpen for 20 mins to get it all down even.

[Minnesota_boy]

Slowzuki,
If you are planning to cut only brush for a while, don't bother filing all the teeth even, just touch up the damaged ones the best you can and go back to cutting brush.  Then throw the chain away and get a new one for cutting trees.  

[rebocardo]

BY my limited experience, I think the wood has a lot to do with it. I can take the same chain, cut water oak and have little 3/8 chips, cut some sweet gum and have curls. I have cut very little pine (maybe five trees), I can not remember ever getting curls.

If I start to get dust or it slows down or seems to stand there then the chain is dull and I put a new one on. Sometimes you can tell just because the bar gets hotter then normal near the tip, especially a dull chain cutting big oak (28 inches plus).

My rule of thumb is unless you are making your falling cuts, if you have to force it, it is dull. If the saw does not cut by its own weight, the chain is dull.

[jokers]

You won`t get curls, or "curly fries" unless you are cutting with the grain. How much cutting with the grain does the average guy do?

Russ

[Rocky_J]

This thread is hilarious!! :D
 8)

[jokers]

Rocky if you think this thread is hilarious, head over and see what the "Tools" are saying about sharpening. Some real insight there.

Russ

[Rocky_J]

The funny part is all the serious answers to this question. The only person who doesn't know how a sharp chain cuts is the person who has never cut with a sharp chain.

Yes, I'm Politically Incorrect in my observation. But everybody knows the answer and no one is willing to say it. So I said it. Now we can let this thread fade off into oblivion.

[qatanlison]

Rocky,

Well, with answers like yours - threads are doomed to fade off into oblivion. The guy asked a, for him, serious question. Who are you to not show him the respect he deserves? Did you just wake up one day knowing all there is to know about chainsaws and chain-sharpening?

O

[David_c]

qatanlison if you have ever noticed by the way he treats people that he must have come out the womb knowing it all. becuase he sure could'nt have learned it like everyone else or he would'nt be so arrogant.

[Rocky_J]

And how many here have needed someone to explain to them the difference between how a sharp chain cuts and how a dull chain cuts (or doesn't cut)? Can anyone here claim that they could not tell the difference and needed it explained to them? And just how did YOU learn the differences in cutting characteristics between a dull chain and a sharp chain David? So I'm out of line for stating the obvious?  :

[Tom]

There was a time when I didn't know and was lucky enough to have a friend instruct me.  Didn't take but a minute for me to learn it.  There is a difference in a dull chain and one that is "sharp as a spoon".   Most everyone can figure out the "spoon" end of it.  It's knowing some of the other little indications that allows you to determine that your chain is dulling.  

Ridicule doesn't make a student want to learn.  ......or return.

[David_c]

rocky i learned by cutting with good chain and bad. and just becuase a question may be obvious to some does'nt nessicarily make it obvious to others. theres ways of saying things rocky without being so blatently arrogant. if a thread is beneath you stay out! the man is trying to learn something not be ridicualed. i'm quit sure you have asked your fair share of questions others thought were dumb. i know i have. so just keep your snide remarks to yourself. contribute or dont say anything.

[Dom]

I think David_c signature says it all.

I know my chain is dull rignt now. I was out cutting alders and thorns bushes and I accidently hit a old fence that was hidden in the dead hay.  :  

[beenthere]

Lets go back to the original question, and not do to RJ what we think he did to the original poster, who has the need to learn.

I spent this week working with my son, and trying to teach him what to look for in a sharp chain (bucking wh. oak firewood with his new Stihl MS361), and how to hand sharpen it to keep it sharp. He went through 4 tanks of gas, and sharpened once. I was hoping that he would get to see a few signs of cutters showing the telltale signs (shiny edges, like a knife that reflects light when looking straight on) of getting dull). But in four tanks with a new chain, he managed to keep it very sharp. Either learning well or lucky.

When he lets that tip touch the dirt sometime, or catch that un-seen barbed wire, or hidden nail or rock, then he will experience the sudden change in cutting ease. Its like night and day when the chain gets dull that way.  Touching the chain up after each tank is usually what I do.

Now, if he had started learning to saw with a dull chain, and only experienced the slow cutting and extra work to force the chain to cut, then who knows what he might conclude.

[jokers]

I`m not interested in getting into the developing fray, just want to point out that my remark about curlies is not in contradiction with Ola`s statement about "nice long chips". I see nice long chips all the time, see a distinction between them and curlies, and don`t believe that Ola was referring to curlies either.

Russ

[9shooter]

One time a while ago I worked with a friend making firewood from 9 acres of oak tops. I didn't have a saw at the time so I used his old 034 (I think)  Stihl, he used the new one. He had one of those electric chain grinders that ran off the car battery. His chains were so dull, I didn't get much wood cut the first day, so I picked up a box of files that night. The next day he came over and wanted to switch saws because "that new saw ain't cutting right". I gladly switched and went and got a file and spent a while trying to make a chain out of the mess he had on the new saw. Also filed the rakers down a might. Boy, that new saw ran just fine. One common mistake I see made using a saw file is that people will file in the wrong direction. You want to file into the cutting edge of the tooth so that the burr is on the inside of the tooth not the outside. As soon as that burr breaks off the wrong way filed tooth the tooth edge is already getting dull. Many folks don't know what the rakers are for and I think the manufacturers leave the rakers a little high to reduce kickback liability. First thing I do to a new chain is file the rakers down a stroke or 2.

[Kevin]

You want to file into the cutting edge of the tooth so that the burr is on the inside of the tooth not the outside.

That's the first I've heard of that being done with a file.
Is there a manufacture reference to that somewhere?
  

Always Use Correct Filing Procedures!

When filing saw chain, make sure that the correct filing procedures are used:

    File saw chain frequently during use.

    Avoid removing too much material while filing.

    Always file from the inside of the cutter to the outside of the cutter.

http://www.cdcstihl.net/stihlpost/spring2001/chain.html

Sharpen cutters on one side of the chain first. File from the inside of each cutter to the outside. Then turn your saw around and repeat the process for cutters on the other side of the chain.

http://www.oregonchain.com/faq.htm#sharpening
  

[qatanlison]

I might be the one leaving the tip - and I think it's quite obvious. If you file/sharpen a knife, axe or any edge-tool for that matter you ALWAYS grind into the edge never away from it. The reason is to get rid of the "feather-edge" and stop it from making its way back into the edge and dulling it.Why use a different method for the edges on a saw chain?
When square filing it's also much more easy to line those angles up when filing from the out-side. I think the main reson for the recommendations is "It's the way it's always been done, why bother changing it?" Filing with a round-file has been done in the same matter for some 60 years - Does that make it the best way? A 60 year old invention in any other field is considered antique - why not so in saw chains?

[logbutcher]

 :P    This thread is almost as good as: "...if you were a tree, which one would you be ? " :-[ :-[
In one corner, the twins telling off the unwashed about how little they know. : In the other most of the others sharing their real world experience and helping. It's all part of an open forum.  8)
Lao Tzu: "democracy is messy"
Here goes: the PFERD Sharpforce 'system' -also made for Husky under another name I think-- does both the tooth and raker at the same time. Neat rig. So that the raker is always the correct depth from the top of the tooth. After sharpening equally on both sides, the rakers may have to be just rounded off for smooth cutting. It comes in sizes for most chains except harvester 404's.
Yes, when you got to force the saw, you know the chain needs work. If the saw "pops" out of a bore its dull or not at wide open throttle. Or, no shavings and mostly dust, then sharpen. Just experience in this corner. :
I've tried all the non-motor sharpening rigs: Granberg clamp-on, rollers, but this Pferd is the best so far for out in the woods with a stump vise---another cool tool.
Sharpening done against the sun to check reflection of light on the tooth edge, should be none.
The School of Expereince is open for business. When I stop asking and checking and learning, it's time to leave. JMHO

[jokers]

:P    This thread is almost as good as: "...if you were a tree, which one would you be ? " :-[ :-[
In one corner, the twins telling off the unwashed about how little they know. : In the other most of the others sharing their real world experience and helping...... Just experience in this corner. :......

The School of Expereince is open for business. When I stop asking and checking and learning, it's time to leave. JMHO

Well logbutcher, since I am one of the evil twins, I can only assume that you are referring to Brian and myself and then implying that neither of us knows anything or offers anything of value. Is that your point?

Then you also put forth the notion that you have vast experience and knowledge, yet you have asked several questions on this very forum that would refute that notion.

If I have read your statements correctly logbutcher, you are a prime example of the person who makes people like Brian and myself reticent to offer any insight or knowledge because there is always some nimrod who ingratiatingly expresses mock humility with a statement such as "When I stop asking checking and learning, it`s time to leave." but then subtly suggests that he already knows it all because his "School of Experience" is open for business, then proceeds to mock any insight that we may have offered.

BTW, did you happen to see any untruth in my sole post regarding this topic. Do You see curlies when you are crosscutting wood fiber? If so, are you sure you`ve ever crosscut wood fiber?

You may as well put me on ignore if this forum offers that option logbutcher, as I won`t be offering you any further assistance. Next time you have a problem, just go back to school.

FWIW, the Pferd tool is nothing but a crutch and gimmick for those who are too uncoordinated or un-motivated to learn to file correctly. The design of the Pferd tool has the inherent weakness of always making an operator use what they consider to be an appropriate depth gauge clearance which is also coincidentally altered from their own perception of appropriate if you put the required 10° downangle on chisel chain. Depth limiting file guides also limit an operators ability to adjust hook angle in the sideplate for various cutting conditions, but of course with your vast experience you already know these things.

Russ

[9shooter]

Again, I suspect that stihl suggests fileing away from the edge because if you file into the edge you run a greater risk, should you slip, of cutting yourself on the edge of the chain tooth. However, If you want a real sharp chain, the burr that is rolled off the edge by filing 'from the backside' needs to be removed. When sharpening any cutting edge like say, a saftey razor, you get the strop out to remove the burr that is left during the metal removing stage of sharpening. Another observation I,ve made is that it is easier to file chain filing from the back to the front of the edge because it is eaiser to brace the saw and you have the weight of the saw to resisting the file strokes. It is a bit harder to file toward the saw engine, and I suspect that human nature causes many to take the easy route. Doesn't  make it the best way though. Another mistake people make is draging the file on the tooth on the back stroke. This serves to dull the file faster. I always drag the file lightly on the return stroke, and only bear down on the forward motion.
  I would hate to pay for the legal team that saw manufacturers probably have to keep on retainer. I know from my own job in the automobile engineering field that many undesireable things are done to limit lawsuits. It's just a reality of our sue happy population. Presision grinding and polishing would produce the sharpest possible chain, but who has the time for that? Production is the name of the game when it comes to profits. We often had 2 saws per sawyer when working in the woods, espesially when bucking logs on the landing. I always sharpened chains between bites on lunch break.
     Another thing I've learned in my own field is that vendors want to sell stuff.  ??? We are often at odds with them because their tooling isn't often designed to last a long time. I am currently working to try to force them to give me a much more reliable cutter to use. I have been suggesting different designs for 3 years now and they always manage to mess it up. Most of their profits are generated from selling cutters. Many other plants are 'happy' with their designs. If the only pig you have is blind in one eye and has 3 legs, why it's the best pig you have!!! There is nothing new with much of sharpening theory and practice. It just isn't applied all the time.
  Got to throw in a final comment. Back in the mid-80's my 2 logging company owning brother-in-laws were running stihl chainsaws exclusivly. Well, they helped put my wife through college, so as a thankyou gesture, we bought them a Husqvarna 266 pro. With that entry level pro saw they averaged 8-10 more trees per day the first week. They parked the Stihls in the barn and went out and bought Huskies for all of their crews. At the time Huskies were a much faster cutting saw, and paid for themselves in short order. They didn't last as long as the Stihls but sure did boost prodution. I have nothing against Stihl, I have a little 029 myself currently, and it's a real reliable saw. I have no idea how they stack up to each other today.

[jokers]

You guys who say that a chain is sharper when filed from the outside in are probably right. I can easily see the correlation with filing other cutting edges and the subsequent formation of the wire edge or "burr", but I think the significance is being overstated in the case of working chain. One fly in the ointment with this belief is the way that chrome is removed from the working corner by the file. I`m speculating but suspect that a corner viewed under a microscope from a chain that was filed inward might actually show some small amount of rounding over because the file is not hard enough to cleanly abrade it. Has anyone ever looked at this?

Grinding inward is an absolute must because you will have a burr to some extent, but grinding is a compromise from ideal anyway.

Russ

[logbutcher]

The twins don't eat no humble pie.......... : :
Guess we're all unworthy dolts, knowing nothing, never asking questions about your  ;D area of expert expertise.
And no, if you got to blend your subjective information w ridicule and dissing, then hold it. And that's being polite. ;) ;)
Repeat after me: "I'm unworthy", "I'm unworthy".
 It's not worth it in an open forum. No matter how much you "know".
Why is it that your posts in all the forums you guys troll always has that dissing condescending edge. Stuff it ...please. Enough flame, OK !
The School of Experience is always open to new info. Not correct. Not wrong. Learn......

[Kevin]

I have felt with a finger nail for a burr but have not used magnification.
Filing inward might work with a fixed mechanical means but I think it is difficult to control by hand filing.

[jokers]

Kevin, Jeff, and everyone else. I want to apologize for degrading this thread with my reply to logbutcher. I have taken my latest reply to him/her off forum and will continue to do so to the best of my ability.

logbutcher, check your PMs

Russ

[Jeff]

Apology accepted Russ. You have been a part of the Forestry forum a long time and I know you try to keep the tone where Kevin and I DEMAND it to be. There will be no personal attacks allowed on this forum. At All. Ever. For any reason.

Log Butcher, and anyone else that are not sure of how this forum operates, I expect that you will respect that in the future. There are plenty of other places where you can kick up your heals if you wish. You are welcome here but as I have said before, the forum is an extension of my house. Same rules apply. If a guest in my house were to get out of line, they would be asked to cool it. If they didnt, they would be "removed."

Maybe spend some time on other parts of this forum and learn how the true members treat each other. We dont flame each other, and if we feel that someone is wrong, we dont attack them, we try to explain why we are right. Its possible for both to be right. We treat each other as friends. Think about this as you post on this forum...

A gentle tongue [with its healing power] is a tree of life, but willful contrariness in it breaks down the spirit.
Proverbs 15:4

[Kevin]

This isn't directed at anyone in particular but we seem to forget why we come to this place at times.
I enjoy the conversation and pop in here to relax after a tiring day climbing trees and poles.
This isn't life support on the space shuttle we're discussing it's just chain saws.
I don't mind be corrected when I make a mistake and I appreciate knowing what's right but some people feel the urge to pounce on others in a demeaning way which only detracts from why we are here in the first place.
Lets talk saws and keep this place for relaxing and learning.
Thanks.

[etat]

 Not being an expert I hope yall will  forgive me for jumping in and giving my verson of an answer.   I'm pretty sure the original question has already been answered but this might give the original poster some insight from a rank amature.


 If you do file 'into the chain' or 'out from the chain' you need to be rock steady and straight and consistent with the file.  And as said, don't drag it back. Keep the file clean too. When I learned to file we didn't have a Gage, the guy that taught me just seemed to know. And I was taught to file 'into the chain' .  NOT saying that's the best way, I really don't know.  It was a long time before I even knew you could get a guide for a file. ???  I guess I got pretty fair at it, though probably far from expert.  I used to like to touch up the chain every tank of gas.  Doesn't take a lot of time, and keeps the chain sharp. I'd not work as hard, get to stop  occasionally, (while filing), and cut more wood than someone who'd just keep cutting.  At this time you also get a chance to catch your wind and get you something to drink if you're thirsty.  NOT alcohol. If I ever hit something that actually damaged the teeth I'd still sharpen, but when I'd get a chance I'd usually take the chain  and get it ground.  When you do this it hardens the teeth and makes it much harder to file.  Keeping a sharp chain will make your saw last longer, and make it a lot easier on you.  

Parallels would be if you can relate would be trying to cut a piece of steel with a rusty or dull hacksaw, trying to cut a board with a rusty or dull handsaw, or a using a skillsaw with a blade that is wore out, and has cut into nails, or even trying to cut something with a dull knife.  Soon as you do it a time or two you'll just seem to know.  Once you get used to having a sharp blade and keeping it sharp, you absolutely will learn to hate working with a dull blade or chain.

I haven't run a chainsaw much in over 10 years, but I 'think' everything is still sorta the same.