Sellers....bundled firewood???

[busybeaverfirewood]

First I would like to say hello to all of you.  I've lurked around a while and noticed this site has some folks with a lot of knowledge.  So, I thought I'd ask a question I've pondered for a while and looking for your insight.

First a little about myself.  I live in northcentral WI.  I'm hoping to retire in about 12 years from my full time job.  I have burned wood for many years but just starting to get into the firewood business to see if it is a viable business with a sustainable income I can operate into retirement.  Unfortunately, we all are aware "retirement" just means quiting your job u spent 20, 30, or more years at and doing something else so you can pay for your health insurance, etc.  So I'm looking to experience the school of hard knocks now through trial and error.  As well as to do the best I can to provide a quality product and obtain a customer base.  I have not sold one stick of wood at this point.  I'm cutting and stacking now to sell for next winter.  I have some orders for next season just from friends and co-workers at this point.  So I'm very "green" to the sales side of firewood.  I anticipate selling more by bulk; face cords and cords, but...

Now to my question:  Why are there not more firewood sellers who sell bundled firewood?

Basic profile of northcentral WI based on what I've seen in local advertizing; craigslist and newspapers, (no one in my area has a website):
Pulp wood=I called about a dozen local loggers and received prices from $85 to $100 per cord for Oak. (I believe the term of "pulp wood" is synonimous throught the country, right?  Uncut logs a logging truck delivers, usually a 10 to 12 cords load at a time of 100" logs in my area.)
Cord= $150 to $200, same as above on delivery.
Face cord= $55 to $75, some free delivery local area, others small delivery charge local area.
By the Pick-up truck=I'm not even going to include the actual amount of wood received and prices vary like the weather.
.75 CI Bundle=$4.29 to 4.99, but only sold at a few gas stations and local big chain store that I wont name as I do not know if that's against forum rules.

Obviously...in most cases a guy could double his money per cord by selling by the bundle.  Why don't more do it?

There is no sales tax on firewood sold for home heating in Wisconsin.  I think selling by the bundle would be harder to say it's for "home heating," therefor the seller would need to collect sales tax and all that jazz.  Is that why?

We do not have but a couple campgrounds in my area, everything is north an hour or so and you can't transport into state parks without USDA certification?  Is that why?

The cost of a bundler like a Twister, etc?  Is that why?

A combination of the above, or something else?

We have a town of about 40,000 residents...with a lot of rental properties.  About 3 or 4 years ago a new ordinance came about to allow back yard firepits in the city limits.  Many of these folks dont have the room to store a cord of wood.  Maybe a face cord or so at most.  But a few bundles for thier weekend fires, they have the room for.

Guys, can you give me some insight on this?  Have you tried to sell to this market and just no takers or what?

I've read some of Busy Beaver's Lumber posts and it sounds like he does very well but it appears he sells to a lot campgrounds, not an option here unless a guy is USDA certified.  Jump in if you're reading BB.

I appreciate any thoughts on this guys and thanks for your time!

Bill

WOW!  I previewed this and what a long post...sorry!

[busybeaverfirewood]

"Cord= $150 to $200, same as above on delivery."  SHOULD READ, "same as below on delivery."  I interchanged it for some reason...my bad.

[beenthere]

Busybeaver

Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Have you thought about what species you might work up into firewood?

A local guy in southern WI has an apparently successful bundled firewood business going (for over 30 years now) and I believe still delivers to customers in the Chicago area. Almost exclusively white birch, as I recall. Cut in pretty short lengths and split pretty small, and air dried. But other species if bundled and dry with some work creating a customer base should work well.

Customers for bundled I'd think would likely be the convenience stores 7-11, Kwik Trip, etc. but likely they already have their suppliers and you'd need to bid under them to get their business. Just might be a place to start small and learn the ropes that way. Our local KwikTrip has wood in onion sacks for sale.

Others will chime in. 

on the law enforcement career.

[busybeaverfirewood]

Beenthere,

I would be doing mostly oak.  I've talked to a lot of guys who burn "recreationally."  You know the type...they burn the first couple weeks of the cold snap then get sick of bringing in wood, or they wanna set the mood for their girlfriend or wife.  They get lucky and then turn on the furnace after that.  Most guys who primarily burn OWB, fireplace, wood stove as their primary heat source buy the pulp wood and cut, split, stack themselves.  I help alot of those guys just for fun, that's why I thought I'd get into this.  I enjoy working with the wood.  It's relaxing for me I guess?  I don't have to try to solve anyone's problems. Just, cut, split, and stack. I think probably the same for a lot of you.

So to the weekend wood burners I mention if they would be interested in hickory, maple, and/or birch, and they look at me like I'm from Mars.  Nope, they want Oak!  So...oak it is.  That's primarily what I'll sell, people know of oak, and don't know any better.  Personally, I'd burn hickory.

The white birch is purty and I think a lot of the upper class folks like to have that on "display" by their fireplace.  My logger gets me white birch here and there but I don't have a lot of it.

Thanks Beenthere, I appreciate your thoughts.

[CRThomas]

I sell bundled firewood me and my wife make a very comfortable living off it. The city I sell in is about the same as your. OK now you find which end of the city has fire places nice homes that's where you sell your bundled fire wood remember your firewood in the bundles is for looks mostly not heat. I have customers I get $10.00 a bundle I have to put a picture of her dog on the bundle another one her name on the bundle so on and on. Remember if you lag on your customer they will find some body else. I have had a customer call 10:00 at night got out of bed and delivered 10 bundles to his drunk in party he handed me a $100.00 bill said keep change. I took out a lady dog and trash out she give me $50.00 tip I dress nice I have shoes that slip off and on easy they don't  like you messing there million dollar home you might even have to start there fire elderly people you might have to set and talk for a few minutes. But for around $60,000.00 a year Selling bulk fire wood is work bundled firewood is not. Do the math. I buy a truck load of split firewood delivered $45.00 there is 2/3s of the work gone I get min. 90 bundles per load or rank. My min. Sale price is $2.50 that comes to $225.00. I go to town to one of my customers store I drop off 30 bundles. So do the figuring. Why would I want to sell bulk firewood I do all my work in a little 20 x 20 heated and ac building if it snows rains get cold or hot no problem my best answer but now I only sell Ash the King of Firewood it burn clean no popping just look up ash info and the bundles are half the weight of oak ash will dry over night in a closed building with a little heat and air flow later. Remember most of my customers are little old people Oak bundle is 20 lb Ash bundle is 10 lb. run out of Ash and I delivered a load of Oak 2 days later I had to go get it and I had a mad customer. I can dry  a truck load over night have bundled and delivered by noon. I am 72 be 73 soon. The still have to carry it in the house. They might want a stand to put it in I keep about 12 pre built stand and that is another charge.

[CRThomas]

For my operation go to my Facebook page raisin666@facebook.com 90 percent of your customers will be females. You ask the man where do you want the firewood his answer is throw it in there any were be fine. The lady opens the garage door so were you put it her friend can see it when they go by she will look the bundles all over then show you the ones she wants put by the fire place or fire places. Have your wife pick up a bundle of oak then a bundle of ash she will tell you quick which one she wants. Oak takes a long time to dry. I have had to go get oak bundles and replace them with ash and tell the customer I was sorry and the say that stuff weighs a ton or I couldnt go to sleep till o'clock that stuff wouldn't go out. Always make sure the poison oak is off the wood. That gets you in trouble quick.

[Corley5]

I do a little more than I would like.  I got a perfectly fine Twister extra cheap at an auction ($60.00).  There's more money changing hands with bundles and it's a lot of extra work to bundle it and stack it plus there's the cost of the stretch wrap.  I know some people make it work but to me making bundles is too time consuming and labor intensive.  I'd much rather deal in bulk wood.  That's my two cents  ;D

[thecfarm]

CRThomas,you have a niche market there.  ;D  Good for you. I can understand where that market is too.

[CRThomas]

You have to stay on it those fly by night firewood people need cash flow they hit some body for a truck load for $35.00 . They jump on that and I don't blame them they just needed money that day they out of beer or gas Monday they out of business or they mowing grass. I lose customers to this but they come back red faced. They is always somebody cut the price. I told a guy next time you got a load for $35.00 I'll buy it they sell me a load couple times a year. Old saying buy out the other fellow pod ain't going to spoil. Always keep some bundled firewood in your truck or loss wood people need some they pay .50 cents  stick I've set in the parking lot and made more money than my wife spent in there. One fellow stop by and bought some he said I would like to have a trailer load of that I said when you want it he said I be home at 7 I be there and make you a deal I am going to sell you a big trailer load for $300.00 dollars and throw in a 6 inch wide stretch so you can bundle your own. That was cash. Alway keep your product where people can see it they can't see it behind the barn Walmart won't say any thing because your wife is shopping and your just waiting on her remember they just walk by bundled firewood for $5.00 a bundle you setting there with $3.00 a bundle or 2 for $5.00 I was a Kmart fellow come out wanting to know what thought I was doing waiting on my wife she in there trying to bankrupts us he ask me if I sold it I said well I guess could a little of it he bought all I had fill the trunk and back seat of his car. If you truly in to bundled firewood always had business card a your wood with you take it to work you casing you car you got truck bed full right next to you is the same thing for sale for $5.00 your bundles say  $3.00 a bundle or 2for $5.00 stay away from bulk if your a bundled you end up opout of good wood the money maker. Later

[busybeaverfirewood]

I do a little more than I would like.  I got a perfectly fine Twister extra cheap at an auction ($60.00).  There's more money changing hands with bundles and it's a lot of extra work to bundle it and stack it plus there's the cost of the stretch wrap.  I know some people make it work but to me making bundles is too time consuming and labor intensive.  I'd much rather deal in bulk wood.  That's my two cents  ;D

I see your point.  I do not know how you obtain your wood.  I have to buy it.  I paid $1080 for a load of pulp wood, 12 "loggers cords," $90/cord.  If I charge on the high end, $200 cut/split, I would make $1320.

If I was able to sell that same 12 cords budled that would yield me around $5100, I think I figured only at $2.50/bundle.  If I figured right...for every .50 cents more a bundle would equal about a grand more on that 12 cords. The bundles I would sell would be .75 cubic inch and I figured about 170 bundles per cord.  Is that right?   Fleet Farm, Kwik Trips, n other gas stations all $4.99 for .75 ci bundle.  But, I do not know how much they sell.  I can't sell to campgrounds, I'm not USDA certified.  I would need a kiln, debarker, or wood needs to sit for a couple years.

Wood is already ALOT of work.  I guess I would be willing to invest even a little more time to bundle if I could triple my earnings.  If I had land I could log or got my wood for free then I could see just selling bulk.

What I've gathered from CRThomas is it's a lot of work to sell bundled.  He appears to be out there, esentially 24/7, at Walmart, farmers market, in addition to his regular route of customers, etc.  But, I think it is worth it and hard work pays off!

After I get what I have cut up, I also consider buying from the "beer money guys."  The hard work is already done and no time on my equipment.  Just bundle it and sell it!

[busybeaverfirewood]

If I was able to sell that same 12 cords budled that would yield me around $5100
Actually it would be $4020...I forgot to take out the $1080 I paid for the initial load.  But still not bad profit.

[Corley5]

Consider also how you're going to break into the market.  You already see wood bundles at stores etc.  How are you going to convince them to buy your wood instead  ???  It takes a bunch of bundles to pay for the equipment and the wood.

[NWP]

I sell about 10-12,000 bundles per year. Mostly to campgrounds in the area. We make both .75 and 1 cubic ft bundles. I'm of the same opinion as Corley5 as that I'd almost rather sell it in bulk. You are in a different position than we are though I would assume. For an initial investment of a wrapper, you're in business. I've got a processor and all the support equipment so it's more of an option for me to sell in bulk.

There are other expenses and logistics for you to determine other than the initial cost of the wood. If you're cutting and splitting your own wood, you'll have time in it. Then you'll have time involved with wrapping as well as delivery. If you do cut and split your own, you can control the size of the split wood. This is important!  The pieces need to be split smaller than you would normally split them for a wood stove. If they are too big the bundle will look disproportionate. The customer will feel like they're getting more if there is 6-8 small split pieces vs 3 large split pieces even though its the same amount of wood. The length is important as well. We cut ours 16". This fits most fireplaces, stoves, etc.  The customer will like the uniform length. And it makes the bundles easier to wrap. We use a Twister machine.  We end up handling the wood twice. It goes through the processor then we resplit the larger pieces with an electric splitter and throw out the knotty or odd shaped pieces.  Then we wrap and palletize them. If you buy split wood from the weekend warrior (beer money) guy, you'll have no control over the specs/size of the wood and may end up splitting it all again anyway. You'll also have the expense of wrap, handles, and labels. Also, don't forget to include the cost of saws and splitter in there too if you're cutting the wood yourself.

I do think this is very feasible for a business when you retire. I just wanted to bring up some points I've learned over the years. Good luck.

[busybeaverfirewood]

Yes i see ur point with the odd sizes n probably crappy wood fly by nighters sell.

Since the gas stations already have their venders and their wood is kiln dried i see that as tough to break into. Our farmers market is done for the year but i'm going to try that this spring when it starts up again. No one sells wood there, mayb for a reason but crthomas seems to make it work where he's from. I'll give it a try as well as selling bulk deliveries.

Thx for everyones input!!

[CRThomas]

Yes i see ur point with the odd sizes n probably crappy wood fly by nighters sell.

Since the gas stations already have their venders and their wood is kiln dried i see that as tough to break into. Our farmers market is done for the year but i'm going to try that this spring when it starts up again. No one sells wood there, mayb for a reason but crthomas seems to make it work where he's from. I'll give it a try as well as selling bulk deliveries.

Thx for everyones input!!

just remember bundled firewood is not for heat its for looks and burn up  in a couple hour that's the reason I use Ash it is beautiful wood later Bill my yard is at raisin666@facebook.com

[timberlinetree]

Seems like I have been seeing more and more of these bundles of firewood at these retail stores and gas stations. Thought maybe lots of people are camping and buying the wood because of EPA regulations. Then I saw the stores stock piling more this fall at the end of camping season. I saw my only neighbor putting 5 gallons of diesel fuel in his oil tank at his house trying to make it to his next paycheck. Then at the gas station I saw a lady with kids getting 2 bundles of firewood (didn't look like she was planning a romantic night with hubby, but can't be too judgmental) It made me wonder if there's that many people living paycheck to paycheck and just trying to make it to their next wood/oil delivery....

[busybeaverfirewood]

Was able to get to your website Charles, nice bundles!

[CRThomas]

Was able to get to your website Charles, nice bundles!

If you got to see my operation you see how I got to work easy I put a picture of my ekectric splitter when I get home in a couple week we just got yo get back on the road with another load trying to get all customers caught up the rest a little bit

[CRThomas]

Seems like I have been seeing more and more of these bundles of firewood at these retail stores and gas stations. Thought maybe lots of people are camping and buying the wood because of EPA regulations. Then I saw the stores stock piling more this fall at the end of camping season. I saw my only neighbor putting 5 gallons of diesel fuel in his oil tank at his house trying to make it to his next paycheck. Then at the gas station I saw a lady with kids getting 2 bundles of firewood (didn't look like she was planning a romantic night with hubby, but can't be too judgmental) It made me wonder if there's that many people living paycheck to paycheck and just trying to make it to their next wood/oil delivery....I don't know as I posted before I have trash and big knots I can't use couldn't give it away so built my kiln and burn it.

[CRThomas]

Go to the place you see firewood bundles for sale see if there happy with the service there getting. My cost to bundle and deliver is $0.90 Just something to work with. Later. Sorry about the $1.25 my wife read this and told me I was wrong. I am corrected now I hope. I don't keep a lot of wood on hand I buy every once a while a truck load if I get a good deal. I have a semi load of cherry and 2 semi loads of Ash but that not normal for me. It so easy to get a truck load around where I live always some body needing beer or gas money. The area I live in lot of welfare and food stamp. If I want to cut trees down and do it that way I have hundreds of acres people let me cut on even the forestry will let me saw up down trees. Luck fell my way. But if you bundle Ash it easy to dry its light it burns clean your customers will fall in love with it. I also pick up about $5000.00 to $6000.00 a year just tips I walk there dog I take out there garbage. I clean there fire places if they want to talk I set with them and drink a cup of coffee while they wonder back in years. Bundle firewood customers are elderly. Some times I get a apple cobbler and a cup of coffee. That's the way my business runs. And I always dress nice and clean shaved.

[NWP]

Don't under price your bundles and do it too cheap though.  I get between $2.60-$2.70 per bundle and I am going to increase that to $3 or a little more next year.

[busybeaverfirewood]

Don't under price your bundles and do it too cheap though.  I get between $2.60-$2.70 per bundle and I am going to increase that to $3 or a little more next year.

Is that to retailers or the public customers? I was thinking between 2.50-3.00.  Gas stations sell them for 4.99. But theres is are kiln dried. Mine would be to local community who have firepits but not necessarily enough property for alot of wood storage.

[NWP]

My prices I listed are wholesale to retailers

[CRThomas]

From what I read on your forum B/B you might have the ideal location bundled fire wood is not like bulk firewood deals. If you got on my Facebook and saw that basket of firewood bundled that was about 2 hours work remember I told you I am 73 now and I don't get in a hurry. That is depend on where I sell it that's 40 bundles x $2.50 to $10.00 average out at $5.00 comes to $200.00. I have always got my truck bed full. When I go to town I do my delivering. I always keep some bags of cherry,apple, or other good cooking wood remember when you split that's not waste you can sell it or burn it in you kiln. Jump on it but do it right. It will pay for it self remember you have to pay for your mistakes.

[busybeaverfirewood]

I dont have a kiln. Would love to just dont have the money to spend on one right now.