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Author Topic: Narrow Kerf Chain  (Read 16033 times)

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Offline Rob5073

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Narrow Kerf Chain
« on: December 11, 2013, 08:19:52 AM »
I have two saws one of which has 3/8 pitch 14" bar and the other is 0.325 on a 16" bar.   The 0.325 is on a 50cc Husqy 545 and the 3/8 is on a 30cc Echo.  From what I've read, the 0.325 is narrower and therefore there is lower resistance when cutting which makes it easier on the engine?  My question is,  if a 30cc can turn a 3/8 chain on a 14" bar and cut well,  why is a slimmer chain needed on a 50cc saw? I'm somewhat perplexed by this.  Thanks for the help. 

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 08:45:23 AM »
 Your 30cc Echo should have a 3/8 lopro with a 6 tooth driver which is a narrower chain than the .325.  If you have regular 3/8 chain on the Echo you need to put 3/8 lo pro on it as those chains cut really good on smaller cc saws.  You want to find 91vx chain.   Steve
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Offline Rob5073

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 09:14:32 AM »
Yes, the Echo has the recommended low profile chain.  I have the original chain which came with the saw and an additional, equivalent Oregon chain.   Sorry, I typed the original post on my smartphone so it was a little difficult.  Ok, I believe I am getting the pitch confused with the gauge.  My question is, being 3/8" pitch chains are fairly common and popular, why do some saws have .325 pitch?  Why not just stay with 3/8 pitch?  Is there a big difference in the performance of the chains and/or durability?

Offline sawguy21

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 09:52:48 AM »
The Picco chain is generally used on saws up to 40cc, it is not as aggressive and allows the saw to work within it's power band. .325 is the next step for saws in the 40-55 cc range with the power to pull it. This is a general guideline, there is some overlap depending on the application.
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Offline webgal

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2013, 09:55:00 AM »
Really the low profile 3/8 is its own animal. It usually is run on pruner bars and up to 16" on small cc chainsaws. I'm thinking the jump from the smaller 3/8 low profile to the .325 pitch chain happens around 40cc or so.
Now when folks are referring to the narrow kerf, it tends to be speaking about the difference in one standard pitch of chain. So within the .325 pitch club there is a narrow kerf option. Those familiar with Oregon chain it is the difference in the width of the cutter between 95VP and the 20 Series chain ie. 20LPX or 20BPX. (You old timers will remember the 33 Oregon series chain.)

Ok, now that brings you to your chainsaw that runs the .325 pitch chain. Without any sprocket changes etc. you can slap on a narrow kerf  .325 pitch chain on that. With the narrower bite, you won't have to pass through so much wood and therefore achieve higher RPMs through the cut and thus get through faster. Our in house testing the guys came back stoked and said they'd never go back. It also can be sharpened the same.

When not to use a narrow kerf with all the bells and whistles it offers? If you are cutting spongy trees or ones with thick bark. The wider cut helps open it up a bit more so that bark or spongy type wood doesn't fall back on the bar so much.

I hope that helps.
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2013, 10:59:31 AM »
Here is a pic of a brand new Stihl Picco PS chisel 3/8" extended pitch chain  I have compared to a Oregon narrow kerf 95VPX .325 which is filed back about half.
I'd suggest running this fast cutting Stihl Picco chain on both the OP's little Echo and 50cc Husky saw
 

 
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Offline webgal

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2013, 11:10:33 AM »
Thanks for the comparison HolmenTree. The .325 pitch looked a bit more worn than the 3/8 on top of the bar. You must use that one a bit more.

Just a note to Rob that if you want to start running this picco chain on your Husky, plan on changing the sprocket. We have more people complaining about ruined sprockets because they didn't understand about the pitch. It isn't as simple as "just run this chain" without consideration of the drive system in the chainsaw.

Saw manufacturers put a certain pitch on their saw because their tech guys that built that saw knew it was the optimum pitch for that chainsaw.

Your choices, Rob on that Husky: Stay as you are. Go narrow kerf with a simple chain purchase. Go picco with a sprocket, bar and chain purchase.
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2013, 11:53:15 AM »
Thanks for the comparison HolmenTree. The .325 pitch looked a bit more worn than the 3/8 on top of the bar. You must use that one a bit more.

Just a note to Rob that if you want to start running this picco chain on your Husky, plan on changing the sprocket. We have more people complaining about ruined sprockets because they didn't understand about the pitch. It isn't as simple as "just run this chain" without consideration of the drive system in the chainsaw.

Saw manufacturers put a certain pitch on their saw because their tech guys that built that saw knew it was the optimum pitch for that chainsaw.

Your choices, Rob on that Husky: Stay as you are. Go narrow kerf with a simple chain purchase. Go picco with a sprocket, bar and chain purchase.
Thanks webgal. Yes I just got the new Picco chisel chain and haven't had time to try it out yet. As my pics show I run the Oregon 95VPX .325 NK chain on my little 338XPT Husqvarna.
 I have a .325 rim sprocket drum setup on the 338 which you  guys at Baileys will have in stock , just make sure to sell the matching oil pump gear with the drum and rim to make the system work.
 

  

 
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Offline webgal

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2013, 12:08:39 PM »
HolmenTree, will you be swapping your .325 pitch sprocket on our 338 back out to 3/8 to run the picco chain you just bought?
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2013, 12:27:09 PM »
.....

Saw manufacturers put a certain pitch on their saw because their tech guys that built that saw knew it was the optimum pitch for that chainsaw.

.....


Most of what you have posted here recently is correct  :), but what the saws comes with (and/or what is recommended) is a compromise between several considerations - and different users, wood and cutting conditions.
You really seem to have too much faith in both the manufacurers and Baileys own "test people". Also, it seems that ANSI considerations (and liability conserns) carry a higher weight in manufacturers recommendations than what really works best in the wood, particularly on saws that are less than 62cc.

It also seems like you forgot (or ignored) the fact that there are no (full) chisel option in .325NK, when you recommended it quite warmly, and without reservations.....

There simply aren't any simple "carved in stone" answers. ;)
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Offline Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2013, 12:29:30 PM »
I think that is helpful to think of this as a progression of different pitch chains:

3/8 low profile/narrow kerf (Oregon Type 90);
3/8 low profile (Type 91);
.325 narrow kerf (Type 95);
.325;
3/8.

Each cutter takes progressively larger bites and works best with increasingly larger saws. Each needs to be run with compatible drive sprockets, guide bars, and nose sprockets.

Oregon posts maximum recommended displacements (cc) and bar lengths for each chain on their website (fact sheets for each chain type) because the smaller bite chains are not designed for high HP saws.

Philbert

Offline webgal

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2013, 12:41:31 PM »

It also seems like you forgot (or ignored) the fact that there are no (full) chisel option in .325NK, when you recommended it quite warmly, and without reservations.....

There simply aren't any simple "carved in stone" answers. ;)

There are full chisel options for .325. .325NK already states Narrow Kerf. When I referred to Oregon's 20 Series chain that is the full chisel option vs the narrow kerf 95VP. Bailey's full chisel option is 20RC while their narrow kerf option is 20NK.

Yeah, as far as going by "recommended" Bailey's as a company has to be VERY liability conscious. However, you don't have to be in the business long before you see people that have made out of the range tweaks on their equipment, then looking to rebuild it because of premature engine damage. Finally they end up selling it on eBay and some guy picks it up, calls Bailey's to have them suss out what the heck the configuration is so he can get a bar and chain from it. (Yes, I just got an FAQ concerning this issue, just this week.)

If you simply get the right saw for what you plan on using it for to begin with, it probably takes all the modification fun out of the deal.
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Offline Rob5073

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2013, 01:11:10 PM »
Thanks for all the information.  It does clear it up for me.  I was just having trouble wrapping my head around the need for different chain dimensions. 

On the Echo CS310 I have the original chain that came with the saw, Oregon "S" series chain (91 Low Profile 3/8 in. pitch, .050 in. gauge) with some bumper links in between each tooth and a second "S" series chain only without those bumpers.  On the 545, I have the original Husqvarna H30 Pixel (.325 pitch, .050 gauge) that came with the saw and a second identical chain.  I don't really do any heavy duty or repetitive cutting on a daily basis so it seems I'll stick with these chains unless there is a specific reason or need for me to change the setup.

Offline Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2013, 01:44:36 PM »
Good call.  Those are both good, 'all around' chains.

Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2013, 01:51:14 PM »
Glad we could straighten out that chain question for you. So many ways to slice it.  :)

The H30 Husky chain is their narrow kerf version. So looks like you are already in the running.
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2013, 02:11:23 PM »

There are full chisel options for .325. .325NK already states Narrow Kerf. When I referred to Oregon's 20 Series chain that is the full chisel option vs the narrow kerf 95VP. Bailey's full chisel option is 20RC while their narrow kerf option is 20NK.

......

Yes, obviously - but besides my point of no (full) chisel option in .325NK. If someone came up with such an option, the NK consept would be much more interesting!

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2013, 02:48:55 PM »

There are full chisel options for .325. .325NK already states Narrow Kerf. When I referred to Oregon's 20 Series chain that is the full chisel option vs the narrow kerf 95VP. Bailey's full chisel option is 20RC while their narrow kerf option is 20NK.

......

Yes, obviously - but besides my point of no (full) chisel option in .325NK. If someone came up with such an option, the NK consept would be much more interesting!
I think from reading webgal's post she is separating the differences in the two and she knows 95VP and 20NK are not full chisel.

To my 338XPT I showed earlier with the .325 setup, the .325 was designed for the rear handled 339XP and the 338XPT top handle was designed for the 3/8 LowProfile. But the parts between the 2 saws interchange, for liability issues as webgal mentioned specific saws are designed with certain b/c applications.
With increased kick back energy with my 338XPT equipped with the bigger more aggressive chain I don't recommend this setup for the novice. I have 40 years experience making a living with a saw on and off the ground so I can only recommend it to other veterans.
Here's the part #s for the 339/338 .325 rim sprocket drum and oiler gear .

    
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2013, 03:04:49 PM »
To compare apples and oranges never call Stihl 3/8 Picco chain "Low Profile", only Oregon holds that title.
Here is a ad from 1977 two years after they introduced the 91 Low Profile extended pitch 3/8 chain. [Stihl introduced their version as "Picco" in 1979.]
To make a long story short Oregon was having patent issues at the time with another North American chainsaw company [starting with an H] who bought 600,000 feet of their 91 chain and was then testing and developing their own .

  
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Offline Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2013, 03:05:56 PM »
That was a surprise for me too, that going from a spur sprocket to rim sprocket on my Husqvarna 353 required a different drive gear for the oil pump!  Dealer had trouble believing bit until we looked it up in the parts list.

Philbert

Offline Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2013, 03:17:19 PM »
. . .never call Stihl 3/8 Picco chain "Low Profile", only Oregon holds that title.

That's part of the problem! Too many trade names getting in the way of common descriptive terms.

To make things more confusing, Oregon has '3/8 LP' chain that is not 'low profile':
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/products/chain/M20_21_22_72_73_75LPX.htm

Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2013, 03:33:16 PM »

Yes I have the same problem explaining this in my posts ;D. Just have to type it out longhand
Unless you can find it first Philbert I'll have to go back into the1970s archives and see why Oregon named the 70 series LP
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Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 04:37:04 PM »
. . .never call Stihl 3/8 Picco chain "Low Profile", only Oregon holds that title.

That's part of the problem! Too many trade names getting in the way of common descriptive terms.

To make things more confusing, Oregon has '3/8 LP' chain that is not 'low profile':
http://www.oregonproducts.com/pro/products/chain/M20_21_22_72_73_75LPX.htm

Philbert

Yes, it is easy to get confused if you don't know exactly what each chain model is....
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2013, 04:43:45 PM »
Picco (Stihl) or Low Profile (Oregon) (WoodlandPRO) can all be used interchangeably. Of course each company wants to have the last word on what it is called, but if you have 56 dl of picco or low profile, you end up with the same usage.

I'm sure a whole new debate can be sparked what is a better brand, but I'm not going to dip my toe in that pool.
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2013, 04:59:51 PM »

There are full chisel options for .325. .325NK already states Narrow Kerf. When I referred to Oregon's 20 Series chain that is the full chisel option vs the narrow kerf 95VP. Bailey's full chisel option is 20RC while their narrow kerf option is 20NK.

......

Yes, obviously - but besides my point of no (full) chisel option in .325NK. If someone came up with such an option, the NK consept would be much more interesting!
I think from reading webgal's post she is separating the differences in the two and she knows 95VP and 20NK are not full chisel.

.....

Of course she knows that - my point is that .325 narrow kerf setups are less useful than they could/should have been, because none of the availiable chain models are (full) chisel.  ;)
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2013, 05:08:52 PM »
 

 
 Here's a pic of the differences between a Stihl Picco 8 tooth mini 7 spline bore  rim sprocket and a Oregon 8 tooth standard 7 spline rim.
Notice the Picco is slightly larger in diameter even though they both are 3/8 -8T sprockets.

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2013, 06:01:28 PM »
Low profiles (aka piccos) tend to run spurs from what I've seen. Cool that Stihl offers a rim system for picco. The oregon spline shown is for full 3/8 size pitch chain. You'd run that  on a 372 husky.

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2013, 08:08:02 PM »


 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.) Here's a pic of the differences between a Stihl Picco 8 tooth mini 7 spline bore  rim sprocket and a Oregon 8 tooth standard 7 spline rim.
Notice the Picco is slightly larger in diameter even though they both are 3/8 -8T sprockets.

It surely is, and it needs to be to compensate for the lower chassis on the Picco/lo-pro chain - as the pitch (at the rivets) is the same .366 on both (no, it isn't .375, so calling 3/8" chain .375 simply is wrong).
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2013, 08:39:49 PM »
All good info SawTroll 8)
If anyone needs the part# for that Picco rim here it is
BTW its been ages since I bought this rim but they may have other tooth counts. I remember this mini  7spline bore fits a Stihl 024-026.
 

 
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2013, 08:54:49 PM »
All good info SawTroll 8)
If anyone needs the part# for that Picco rim here it is
BTW its been ages since I bought this rim but they may have other tooth counts. I remember this mini  7spline bore fits a Stihl 024-026.
 

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I believe there is a 7-pin variant as well, but 6-pin likely isn't possible even for the Stihl mini 7-spline.
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2013, 09:07:11 PM »
All good info SawTroll 8)
If anyone needs the part# for that Picco rim here it is
BTW its been ages since I bought this rim but they may have other tooth counts. I remember this mini  7spline bore fits a Stihl 024-026.
 

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

I believe there is a 7-pin variant as well, but 6-pin likely isn't possible even for the Stihl mini 7-spline.
Thanks Niko, I was going to suggest to the OP of this thread Rob 5073, that he may be wise to run the new Stihl 63PS chisel chain that I showed earlier on both his saws.
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2013, 09:10:02 PM »
Low profiles (aka piccos) tend to run spurs from what I've seen. Cool that Stihl offers a rim system for picco. The oregon spline shown is for full 3/8 size pitch chain. You'd run that  on a 372 husky.

All that is correct.

The top handle saws etc in 3/8" Picco/lo-pro usually use a 6-pin sprocket, and that likely isn't possible to make even for the Stihl mini 7-spline drums.

.325x7 isn't much larger, but that is possible even for the regular small 7-spline (as the number of slots for drivers is the same as the number of splines).
That setup comes standard on the 339xp, and I assume that is what Holmentree have used on his 338xpt (basically the same saw, but top handle vs. rear handle).... :)
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2013, 10:19:13 PM »
HolmanTree,  what would be the benefits of running the Stihl chain? Would I have to change anything or can I use the chain with the stock setups?

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2013, 11:47:48 PM »
HolmanTree,  what would be the benefits of running the Stihl chain? Would I have to change anything or can I use the chain with the stock setups?
If the saw is set up for 3/8" lo-pro, the advantage would be that Stihl make a (full) chisel chain for that setup (63PS - forget 63PS3, as it is "green" chain), and Oregon doesn't (so far).

If your wood is somewhat "dirty", and you need semi chisel, there are no advantage to run Stihl chain, Oregon 91VX and /or VXL likely is the best semi chisel options (i have no personal experience though, this is based on what people I trust have posted in the past).
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2013, 05:34:47 AM »
 I really like the 91 vx semi chiesel, stays sharp a long time and cuts great.. You want to use a 6 tooth on 45cc and less as a 7 tooth 3/8 lp cuts about the same as a .325 7 tooth, tried that and the 3/8 lp 6 tooth cuts the fastest by quite a bit.   Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2013, 03:22:02 PM »
HolmanTree,  what would be the benefits of running the Stihl chain? Would I have to change anything or can I use the chain with the stock setups?
Rob, I was just saying you could run the same chain on both saws to keep things simple and still get good or better performance then what you already have.
You'd have to convert your 545 over to 3/8 which is already an option. The 91 VXL 3/8 Low-Profile or Stihl Picco chain will work fine on the standard 3/8 converted 545 for what  little cutting you say you do, it's not perfect but then most chain is not perfect as their pitch changes all the time with wear and tear anyways.
Here's a video comparing a chisel .325 chain to the Picco 63PS chisel chain. The little chisel Picco looks very impressive, if it wasn't -30 below outside I would test mine :D

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Offline Rob5073

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2013, 05:07:47 PM »
I see now what you mean.  Thanks for posting the video.  I never realized there were different options and modifications one could make on a saw even if something as simple as the chain/sprocket.  I'll research it further.

Offline SawTroll

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2013, 05:18:13 PM »
Running 3/8" Picco on a regular 3/8" sprocket will be about as using a sprocket that is wore well beyond it useful life.. ;)

Don't do it, unless in a pinch.....
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2013, 06:02:28 PM »
Ditto  :D
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2013, 04:03:51 PM »
Running 3/8" Picco on a regular 3/8" sprocket will be about as using a sprocket that is wore well beyond it useful life.. ;)

Don't do it, unless in a pinch.....
Niko, it must be tough being a armchair coach :D
I put the new Picco 63PS to the test today on my Husqvarna 550XP with a 14" bar in 3/8 LoPro tip from my 338XPT and put a small 7 spline 3/8" 7Tooth Oregon rim on it.
I cut about a dozen cuts through a 10"X10" spruce and the chain cut like crazy ,way faster then the .325 that I had on the 550 and the Picco chain rolled along the bar and 2 sprockets like butter with no side effects.
Seeing the OP ROB 5073 has the sister saw the 545 this setup would work fine like I said earlier. I suggest he get the 16" bar or 18" in the 3/8 LoPro if he can find it.
I remember years ago I ran Picco on my Stihl 066 with no problems miiling lumber and it worked even better with the Picco 7 T standard spline spur drum #1122 640 200 with all the extra power the 066 put out.
But for the power of a 545 or 550XP the standard 3/8 small spline rim sprocket is all that is needed, just make sure to have the 3/8 LoPro nosed bar to back it up.
Here's some pics I took today of the 550 with the Stihl Picco 63PS , other photos of the Picco wrapped around several standard 3/8 rim sprockets including a 13 Tooth 3/8 standard .
Last 2 pics are what doesn't work: a standard 3/8 chain wrapped around and not meshing with a Picco 3/8 rim sprocket ,
And lastly from some misguided advice from Grandedog [Greg] he said run Picco chain on a 8 Tooth .404 rim sprocket , as my pic shows it sure doesn't mesh there. :D
 

  

  

  

  

  

  

  

 
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2013, 04:17:56 PM »
Ditto  :D
Well webgal, did you learn anything from my last post to Niko ;)
I know your not a official Stihl dealer at Bailey's , but what LoPro sprockets setup do you sell for your LogoSol mills for Stihl 660's etc.?
I know LogO Sol supplied Picco sprocket drums for the big saws , do you still supply them?
I understand you have to be neutral on the Stihl sawchain sales issue I  referred to in previous threads. 
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2013, 04:33:15 PM »
The Stihl sprocket in question for running the low profile (aka picco)  chain on a 660 Stihl for milling purposes would be the Stihl part number. 1122 640 2006.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

Rob was asking about narrow kerf benefits. Turns out he mentioned he was happy with his set up and he is even running a narrow kerf set up on his stock saw.

You mentioned swapping the sprocket around like you did, was based on 40 years of sawing and loads of experience. I'm a "by-the-book" gal for sure and encourage Rob to weigh his options. I've a serious respect for timberfallers and chainsaws. I'll let you guys suss this one out for yourselves. I certainly don't have 40  years of sawing experience, but I have listened to tales from a wide range of long timer operators.
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2013, 04:47:44 PM »
The Stihl sprocket in question for running the low profile (aka picco)  chain on a 660 Stihl for milling purposes would be the Stihl part number. 1122 640 2006.

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

Rob was asking about narrow kerf benefits. Turns out he mentioned he was happy with his set up and he is even running a narrow kerf set up on his stock saw.

You mentioned swapping the sprocket around like you did, was based on 40 years of sawing and loads of experience. I'm a "by-the-book" gal for sure and encourage Rob to weigh his options. I've a serious respect for timberfallers and chainsaws. I'll let you guys suss this one out for yourselves. I certainly don't have 40  years of sawing experience, but I have listened to tales from a wide range of long timer operators.
Yes that part number you gave must be the new updated #, so you must still sell them. So what do you sell at Baileys in LoPro for your LogO Sol mills?

Speaking of "by the book" not everything you hear from some arm chair coaches are worth any thing. Read my last post to Gregg  aka Grandedog in the "milling chain 394XP" thread.
If Rob tries out the Stihl 63PS Picco on his 545 the exact way I did as I explained in the previous post with my 550XP and it doesn't work out for him , then I'll buy him a new b/c. He sends me the b/c , I'll pay his shipping and I'll send him a new .325 NK b/c.
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2013, 05:19:15 PM »
Actually for milling with the Logosol units the 63PMX Stihl picco ripping chain is the way to go. We used to have our 30LR made by Carlton, but since then Oregon bought them out and Stihl are the only ones (that I know of) that are steadily producing that specialized chain.

My early days of being big ears for all the tales told, one guy told me how he had done a rebuild and didn't put the cover on to test it out and it sucked his shirt in and ripped it off his back and only left the collar rings and the sleeve rings of his cotton T. Yep, I believed him...  :'(
Gotta know when to fell em, know when to tell em, know when to walk away, know when to run....

Offline Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2013, 06:27:11 PM »
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.

Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2013, 06:29:59 PM »
Actually for milling with the Logosol units the 63PMX Stihl picco ripping chain is the way to go. We used to have our 30LR made by Carlton, but since then Oregon bought them out and Stihl are the only ones (that I know of) that are steadily producing that specialized chain.

My early days of being big ears for all the tales told, one guy told me how he had done a rebuild and didn't put the cover on to test it out and it sucked his shirt in and ripped it off his back and only left the collar rings and the sleeve rings of his cotton T. Yep, I believed him...  :'(

I think your the only one telling tales here webgal :D
So, you haven't answered my question what 3/8" LoPro drive sprockets and bars do you stock for your LogOSol  units?
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2013, 07:59:53 PM »
......

Frankly, I'd be really surprised if Gregg suggested putting 3/8 on a .404 sprocket. Technically low profile is .365 as someone here pointed out.

.....

The pitch of both regular 3/8" and Picco/low profile is about .366.

There actually is no .375 chain out there, even though that number often is used in marketing of 3/8" chain...... :(
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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2013, 08:06:48 PM »
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.

Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert


True!  :)
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2013, 08:20:03 PM »
HolmenTree,

My understanding, based on cut-away photos, is that the Picco/low profile chain will fit into a standard 3/8" sprocket (the 'pitch' / rivet spacing is the same), but that the shallower profile of the Picco drive link does not mesh with the sprocket the way that full sized 3/8 drive links do.

This leads to the sloppier fit that SawTroll referenced, especially with wear.


Does this conflict with any of your findings?

Philbert
Philbert, yes the match isn't perfect but then look how pitch goes out the window when a sprocket has worn and a new chain is put on it.
I think only Oregon has the claim to fame of producing a "true even pitch" chain  with their .404 (can't think of the model#off the top of my head) So "out of pitch chain" is almost normal in this industry.
Over the years I have carved with a Picco chain on a 044, milled with it on a 066 and a 395XP. With all that strenuous cutting with such a small cutter size filing life was not great, but it did the job very well for its short life for what I used it for. Only the little .043 Picco I had a problem with peening and tightening up of the links with the bigger saws .

I was just suggesting to the OP to give the Picco 63PS a try seeing his other saw is running LoPro, for the ammount of cutting he does he should be happy.
I do run the NK .325 on my 550XP and 338XPT and I'm really happy with it, excellent edge holding retention and cuts more aggressively then the .325 chisel 20LPX.
But I was sure impressed with the speed of the Picco chisel today on the 550.
Here's another pic of the 63PS Picco compared to the NK .325 for Rob to ponder over.
 

 
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Offline joe_indi

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #48 on: December 14, 2013, 10:55:19 PM »

Here's another pic of the 63PS Picco compared to the NK .325 for Rob to ponder over.
 

 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
Coincidentally, months ago, I had uploaded a video on Youtube that shows the full chisel Stihl PS3 in action  in comparison with Stihl's semi chisel 63PM .Both chains were out of the box. What to see is the bigger chip size with the Picco Chisel running and the slightly increased cutting speed.Since then I tried it on my 026. The cutting is  nothing short of amazing.

Offline massmanute

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2018, 04:27:08 AM »
Bringing an old thread back to life, I find the whole topic of pitch, gauge, profile, and kerf rather confusing. I understand what pitch is, and I understand what gauge is, but it is unclear to me how profile and kerf fit into the picture, particularly in regards to compatibility.

I guess my real question boils down  to the following: If I have a sprocket and bar for 3/8" pitch and 0.05" gauge, are there any compatible chain types that can give narrow kerf than a standard chain? 

Application: Milling using a MS660 saw.

Thanks.  

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2018, 09:31:12 AM »
You can get a 3/8 picco sprocket for your 660 and also a 3/8 picco bar in the 3003 mount, but the longest you can get in it is a 16" bar unless you run a hard nose bar.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2018, 10:16:49 AM »
If it wasn't for little tiny chain there wouldn't be little tiny saws .The early stuff was 1/4" which went to 3/8" lo pro,pico whatever you want to call it .Fact I have some little saws that still have 1/4" which Oregon once made in chisel until Ralph Nader put his two cents in and got it outlawed .
Now on a little saw with high RPMs of course the small chain would cut faster but to put a micro chain on something like an 066 Stihl would not prove much IMO other than show it could be done .

Can you only imagine filing a 36" loop of micro chain ? My word it would take forever and take at least 3 beverages before the job was complete .Then unless to had the bladder of an elephant it would take trip behind a tree .Whatever floats your boat I guess ,doesn't float mine .

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2018, 11:16:02 AM »
Oh the memories re reading this 5 year old thread. :D
SawTroll and webgal probably some of the 2 most knowledgeable saw people out there.

Pro Husqvarna SawTroll dropped off the face of the earth after the MS462 and MS500i were introduced.

webgal is an interesting case. She worked for Bailey's up to about the end of this 2013 thread.
Then Bailey's was no longer our sponsor.
She has a great signature:
"Gotta know when to tell them, know when to walk away, know when to run......"
Caprice Becker. Laytonville, California.

That she did.... :)
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Offline massmanute

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2018, 02:08:21 PM »
It sounds as if I am stuck with the standard chain unless I change the sprocket and bar, and even then I can't use a long bar. Is that correct?

I was hoping to get a little narrower kerf in my milling, but I can live with what I have now if I have to, particularly since my main purpose at this point is to "learn the ropes".

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2018, 02:35:18 PM »
File your standard chain's cutters back as small as possible and with the depth gauges filed down at about .035 - .040 clearance.
As long as your bar rails are not spread you will be amazed how well that chain will cut ....and it's now a narrow kerf chain with a strong chassis and nothing else needs to be changed.;)
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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2018, 05:54:18 PM »
The depth gauge spec of .035-.040 I suggested above with the cutters filed back to near the witness marks is for cross cutting.
For milling I suggest .045 - .050.
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Offline massmanute

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2018, 07:05:20 PM »
The depth gauge spec of .035-.040 I suggested above with the cutters filed back to near the witness marks is for cross cutting.
For milling I suggest .045 - .050.
Thanks. I would have never thought of those ideas on my own.

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2018, 08:51:12 PM »
You're welcome.
I'm not saying to take a new chain and file all the cutters back to the witness marks.
If you have any old half used up 3/8" chains like 33RS, file or grind them back ahead of the top plate witness to allow some sharpening life. Let's say with the working corner of the cutter is in line with the middle of the rear rivet to the back of it on the sideplate. About 1/4 to a 1/3 left of the cutter's length.
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2018, 09:14:04 PM »
I really like the 91 vx semi chiesel, stays sharp a long time and cuts great.. You want to use a 6 tooth on 45cc and less as a 7 tooth 3/8 lp cuts about the same as a .325 7 tooth, tried that and the 3/8 lp 6 tooth cuts the fastest by quite a bit.   Steve
That 91 vx  I have run with a 24" bar on a 61cc husky 262xp. Not good in pine but cuts fast in hard -hardwood and dry spruce knots. Problem is filing such small teeth by eye.

Offline Inaotherlife

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2018, 06:11:09 PM »
Very informative thread.

I'm just starting to grasp the ins and outs of how a 7-pin .325 can possibly equal or better a 6-spur 3/8 low profile on some saws.

Not sure if the benefit outweighs the cost of switching though. Unless your saw needs replacements to begin with.

Thanks HT, and ST, and all the other contributors, for sharing your knowledge.

Still, I'm hesitant to alter bars for applications that they weren't originally designed for. More to learn.


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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2018, 09:42:46 PM »
Not sure if you guys have seen it yet, but Oregon introduced a low profile, .325 chain at a recent industry event; 'SpeedCut Nano' (80TXL).  I don't think that it is available yet, but it could be another option to consider.

Link: Oregon Products

Have to see where it fits in, in the: 3/8 low profile/narrow kerf (Type 90); 3/8 low profile (Type 91, 'PICCO'); .325 narrow kerf (Type 95, Husqvarna 30); .325 pitch sequence.

Might fit in certain niches.  Might be something else to navigate. Looks like it requires specific sprockets, bars, etc.

Philbert

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2018, 11:33:16 PM »
Looks like Oregon's best attempt to make a .043 chain as close to Stihl's little 1/4 71PM. 
This .043 .325 is designed for battery saws in general. That huge safety ramp sure wouldn't help performance.  Looks like those old Pioneer chain design from the 70's.
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Narrow Kerf Chain
« Reply #62 on: December 13, 2018, 09:11:31 AM »
They're marketing it to arborists and other professionals. It will be interesting to see how it compares. The depth gauges on the 80TXL look a little like what is on the Oregon LPX chain, though the ramp on this seems a bit more pronounced and may sit higher in relation to the raker than on the LPX
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow


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