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Author Topic: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40  (Read 1811 times)

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Offline highleadtimber16

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Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« on: December 16, 2013, 09:31:26 PM »
Hey everyone, I was running an LT 40 Super last week. It only had one pump working on it and was still faster than my mill. I'm guessing it's the bigger hydraulic lines. Has anyone added just bigger lines and not another pump on their regular hydraulic mill? Wood-Mizer quoted me $1200 for another pump, lines, etc... It's not really justifiable for me as I'm a one man show. Though it would be nice for a little more speed at low cost. I think the  bigger lines are 1/2" compared to the standard 3/8"??  Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks!  :)
2011 Wood-Mizer LT 40 hyd w/ 12' Extension, Patrick Model A Loader, 75 Hitachi, Stihl 461, 2X066, & ms 192

Cutting Old Growth Cedar from Queen Charlotte Islands.

Offline scully

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2013, 10:32:08 PM »
Not so sure bigger lines will help ,it seems to me that increaseing line volume could actualy hurt operating speed unless the pump size was also increased. Not sure I know what I am talking about but thats just my take on it ....
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Offline Bill Gaiche

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2013, 10:36:33 PM »
Check out the supers hydraulic pumps gpm versus yours also. bg

Offline DDobbs

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 12:52:24 AM »
Scully pretty much nailed it.


Dave


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Offline highleadtimber16

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 01:03:12 AM »
I just figured if the Super is still faster with only one pump working, then it would work to put bigger lines on my mill. When you say "hurt operating speed" do you mean decrease speed or damage the pump?
2011 Wood-Mizer LT 40 hyd w/ 12' Extension, Patrick Model A Loader, 75 Hitachi, Stihl 461, 2X066, & ms 192

Cutting Old Growth Cedar from Queen Charlotte Islands.

Offline schmism

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 01:41:23 AM »
hydraulic speed is purely a function of  flow rate.     large lines will not slow down hydrualics.

most likely the super has a larger flow rate pump on it.    HP and flow rate are tied together.  you might be able to swap just the pump on the end of the motor to a larger flow rate pump.  but without increasing the HP of the motor driveing it,  you may not see a significant increase in speed (perhaps only under no load conditions)
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Offline manoverboard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 06:41:32 PM »
Scully has it, if you increase the hose size the pump will have more volume to fill/pump (this due to the bigger hoses). This will cause a delayed response when you call on the hydraulic system (due to the increased hose volume and flow required) and the added time it takes your old pump to build pressure. Changing to a higher flow pump will be the right way to go IF you increase the size of your hoses. IMHO In either case (up-sizing hoses or installing a higher displacement pump with the original lines) would have an adverse effect on the hydraulic system. You would find out where at the weakest point of the system and that would be a bad thing...
TimberKing 2000, 35hp Diesel, Kubota L3800 w/loader

Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 07:05:31 PM »
Larger hoses will not affect the speed of your mill, unless they are small enough to cause a restriction. If you put 5 gpm into a hydraulic hose, you are going to get 5 gpm out of it, even if it is much bigger than you need. Because hydraulic fluid is non-compressible, it will build pressure at the same speed either way. The Super series mill uses two 12VDC pumps, and the standard uses one. The only way to go faster is to add another pump.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"Logrite!

Offline GAB

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 07:37:27 PM »
highleadtimber16:
The standard flow equation is Q=AxV.
Q= quantity (cu. ft / min)  There are 7.48 gallons in a cu. ft.
A= area (pi x r x r (r needs to be in feet))
V= velocity of the flow (feet per minute)
So going to larger lines will result in the velocity through the lines to be slower, unless you increase the capacity of the pump.  I hope I got it right as I went from memory.  I hear that that is the second thing to go.  I forgot what is the first thing to go is/was.  Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34 w/6' ext & SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 07:40:00 PM »
Yes, the velocity will be slower, but the displacement will be the same, so the cylinder will always more at the same rate.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"Logrite!

Offline drobertson

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 07:54:11 PM »
GAB nailed it, volume comes from the pump, speed comes from transmission line diameter,  david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 08:12:31 PM »
The line diameter will not affect the speed at which the cylinder moves. Period. If you pump 5 gallons of oil through a hose over the period of 1 minute, you will get 5 gallons of oil out the other end over the period of 1 minute. It doesn't matter if it's 3/8" line or 2" line, the cylinder will move the same distance over the same period of time.

The reason for a larger line is to accommodate larger volumes of oil without restriction. Trying to force 5 gallons a minute through an 1/8" line will result in elevated pressures and temperatures. Pump that same 5 gallons a minute through a 1" line, and you will have pressures and temperatures well within the safe range for a hydraulic system.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"Logrite!

Offline drobertson

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 08:37:40 PM »
The line diameter will not affect the speed at which the cylinder moves. Period. If you pump 5 gallons of oil through a hose over the period of 1 minute, you will get 5 gallons of oil out the other end over the period of 1 minute. It doesn't matter if it's 3/8" line or 2" line, the cylinder will move the same distance over the same period of time.

The reason for a larger line is to accommodate larger volumes of oil without restriction. Trying to force 5 gallons a minute through an 1/8" line will result in elevated pressures and temperatures. Pump that same 5 gallons a minute through a 1" line, and you will have pressures and temperatures well within the safe range for a hydraulic system.
And there are those of us who stand corrected, my memory is not what is was, been awhile in fluid transmission,  thanks dave,  He just needs pump with more gpm, right?    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 08:44:06 PM »
Yes, more gpm will move the cylinders faster. I'm not trying to be a know-it-all, but I don't want highlead to go out and buy a bunch of bigger hoses and not be happy. :)
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"Logrite!

Offline highleadtimber16

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 08:47:40 PM »
Guys, thanks for the replies.  :) This still makes me wonder why the Super "only has one pump working" is still quicker?
2011 Wood-Mizer LT 40 hyd w/ 12' Extension, Patrick Model A Loader, 75 Hitachi, Stihl 461, 2X066, & ms 192

Cutting Old Growth Cedar from Queen Charlotte Islands.

Offline manoverboard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 08:48:15 PM »
Makes sense... I knew the pump was the answer just didn't know how to say it in engineering language :embarassed:
TimberKing 2000, 35hp Diesel, Kubota L3800 w/loader

Offline terrifictimbersllc

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2013, 08:07:46 AM »
Guys, thanks for the replies.  :) This still makes me wonder why the Super "only has one pump working" is still quicker?
I wondered if it really is faster, but assuming so, and that the pumps are the same, could it be that the Super is maintaining a higher voltage either because of its larger alternator or because its battery is in better condition?
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT   2001 WM LT40SHDD (42HP Kubota, Accuset2, FAO's, Lubemizer, debarker, hydraulics everywhere), Peterson WPF 10-30 with chain slabber. Logrite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.

Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2013, 08:12:55 AM »
I was thinking it might be voltage as well. More likely it is a viscosity issue. If the Super is running thinner oil and/or bigger hoses, it may function faster. My Super moves faster once the oil warms up this time of year.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"Logrite!

Offline terrifictimbersllc

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 08:17:01 AM »
Right, HLT, your mill on a cold day vs. the Super on a warmer one?
DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT   2001 WM LT40SHDD (42HP Kubota, Accuset2, FAO's, Lubemizer, debarker, hydraulics everywhere), Peterson WPF 10-30 with chain slabber. Logrite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.

Offline Magicman

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Re: Bigger Hydraulic Hoses on LT 40
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 08:45:05 AM »
To operate a Super on one hydraulic pump, the lower connecting hose must be closed (pinched) off to prevent the operating pump from "back flowing" through the non-operating pump.  (Also, plugs could be placed in the pumps)  This is not an easy chore.  Just saying...

My Super used 3/8" hoses for everything except the toe boards and the clamp up-down.  They are ".
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