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Author Topic: Hard starting in cold weather questions  (Read 8204 times)

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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2014, 08:57:24 AM »
Jim,how's the hat?
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2014, 10:04:28 AM »
Jim,how's the hat?

hanging from the floor joists over the pellet stove drying out. I forgot to bring it to the shop/office this morning.
I'll have to get it at noontime when I go to the house for lunch

 

 

In the meantime back to our story.

I went to autozone the other night on the way home and picked up the radiator hose heater. I haven't even opened the box or compared it to the hose location to see if I can install it, yet. I hope to do that in a little while, today. I'll take pictures when I do.

I did try and order a battery heater pad from them when I was there. But they said their warehouse was out of them. But that another store in their network had three on hand. So I drove over there last night on the way home and got one.
I'm about to install it today.
The only thing that the paperwork on the back of the package label says is to not plug it in or turn it on if the temperature is over freezing. It says to plug it in and leave it on all night long, when below 32F.
It's suppose to warm up here today to 30 today, and little or no wind.

I hoping that after I finish sharpening saw blades I can saw a log or two today.

I'm going to pull the backhoe battery install the pad while blades are running through the grinder and turn it on for a while and see what happens.
I'll let you know.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2014, 03:37:35 PM »
Ok, so today, I took the battery out and put a new base in the battery area, which was a small thin piece of "plywood", I hate plywood but in this case I used it as I wanted something thin and strong.

Then I added the battery pad:

 

 

I put the large backhoe battery back in, plugged in the pad, the battery charger, got the propane heater and put it under the tarp and turned them all on.

After about 15 minutes it was very warm under the tarp:

 

 

You can't see it in this photo because of the cell phone flash but the thermometer reads 40F.

I tried to get it to start. Wouldn't start.

I went over and got another "newer" battery out of my plow truck and put that in the backhoe. Same thing wouldn't start. Turned over real slow, to slow to start.

So, I figured maybe the advice I got about the starter being worn out could be right.

I pulled the starter out:

 

 

And I took it over to the rebuild shop. They asked me what was wrong with it, other than the heavily damaged gear on the end of the drive. I said I didn't know and wanted it tested, and repaired. I told them it wouldn't turn the machine over fast enough to start it. It probably needs rebuilding anyhow.
They said they'd go through it and take a look at the bearing, brushes and drive and hopefully will be able to replace the bad gear. He suggested I have a good look at the flywheel, which I did and it didn't seem to have any damage to it. At least the part that is showing.

They're suppose to call me tomorrow when it's done and hopefully it will work good. Tomorrow suppose to be warmer.

I have taken a look at some of the junk in my outside storage extra bay on the side of the garage/shop/office, and I put a bunch of stuff on Craig's list to see if I can sell some of it off and clean out that spot so I can put the backhoe in there.

Once I get it running again, I'm going to move a bunch of stuff around and get some space to put this machine in under the roof and create a new spot for it to be in the winter time.

That's today's update. Except for this note to thecFarm: I didn't spend any time going down to the pellet stove to get my hat. I'll get it when I go down there tonight to tend to the stove, after I get mother her supper.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2014, 04:11:32 PM »
You may have to leave the heater on for a couple hours. I plug the tractors in for at least an hour. The wife's tractor has the fuel tank in front of the steering wheel. So if it's real cold I'll throw a couple blankets over the hood and that keeps the fuel warm too. But I'll plug it in over night when I do that. Most times when it's real cold I don't need the tractor anyways.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline snowstorm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2014, 04:55:39 PM »
the bad gear as you call it is the starter drive. the reason he told you to look at the flywheel is because the ring gear is attached to it. and if the drive gear is bad there is a chance the ring gear is also bad. they do wear out. to check it turn the motor over by hand while looking at the ring gear

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2014, 05:50:14 PM »
i still say put in a new battery :)there isnt a need for a battery pad with  good working batteries. if that was nessasary wouldnt all newer vehicles come with warm pads? have you had a mechanic go thru your carb?
the experts think i do things wrong
 over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2014, 03:48:25 PM »
the bad gear as you call it is the starter drive. the reason he told you to look at the flywheel is because the ring gear is attached to it. and if the drive gear is bad there is a chance the ring gear is also bad. they do wear out. to check it turn the motor over by hand while looking at the ring gear

I know it's called a starter drive and I was very surprised when I saw the end of the gear. That's why when I saw it I figured I better have it rebuilt.
I did look at the flywheel, again what I could see. I can't turn it over by hand without using a crow bar on the flywheel. And that's something that I don't think I want to do right now.

I have tested the battery and it says it's fine. I posted that before. I just don't have the money right now to buy a $120 battery until I saw a few logs and make some more money.
I traded in some batteries and got the money for all these parts, that I bought.

I haven't had anyone look at the carburetar yet, either. When it's warm it runs fine.
I don't even know if the carburetor rebuilding shop, where I had it rebuilt years ago, is still open or not.

So today when I got in, I fired up my wood stove in my shop/office building and the external fan that blows the heat out from around the stove jacket into the room died. I had to let the fire die out, and get down there and take the blower off the backside and remove the electric motor so I could get the part number. I replaced this once before, many years ago.
Can't work here without heat. This came first.

While doing that, the starter re-builder shop guy called and said it was all done.
Off to two other towns on errands I picked up a new blower motor several towns west of me and one town east of me to get the starter back.

I had a long talk with the starter rebuilder guy and he said that they make a "high torque" set of field magnates for that starter. He said that there is also an after market high torque starter he could research, find and order for me if I wanted to go that route after we try the "high torque" field magnates.

He said he put new bearing or bushings in each end and the middle one. And that he put in a new drive gear.
He said that it (the overall starter) wasn't in bad shape. I don't remember if he put in any new bushes or not. But he told me yesterday it maybe between $100 and $150 to rebuilt it. But when I got there he told me it was only $50.

I had to call my customer and ask him to bring over a deposit on his order for me to have the money to pay for these unexpected repairs, the starter and the blower motor.

When I got back from these errands I put the blower motor in and got the fire going again. Warm in here now.

It's been snowing off and on here all day. It was suppose to warm up and rain but I haven't seen that yet. I just looked at the radar and it's all gone out to sea.

I haven't put the starter in yet. I may wait till the morning when it's suppose to be warmer.

Here is a shot of the rebuilt starter drive:

 

 

Here is a close up shot of the old damaged gear:

 

 

And for thecfarm here is a picture of my hat after it came out of the washing rack and was dry:

 

 

Got a little bleed through from the green bill into the cap but other than that it fit well and felt good to wear it again.

Jim Rogers

PS. I will keep you updated.
And again thanks for all your advice, suggestions and comments.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2014, 04:11:39 PM »
Thanks for the update on the hat. ;D
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline WmFritz

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2014, 05:32:26 PM »
Hopefully, now that the cap is rejuvenated, all's right in the world and your hiccups will be cured, James.   smiley_sun
~Bill

2012 Homebuilt Bandmill
1959 Detroit built Ferguson TO35

Offline Holmes

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #89 on: January 11, 2014, 08:34:07 AM »
  Your old starter looks like it was stuck out in the engaged position all the time. I believe that gear is supposed to retract then shoot out into the flywheel to engage it to start the motor. 
    Have you looked for a 2nd ground wire that goes from the motor to the frame? It should be checked I had starter problems  and it was the 2nd ground wire corrosion.
Think like a farmer.

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #90 on: January 11, 2014, 09:16:50 AM »
  Your old starter looks like it was stuck out in the engaged position all the time. I believe that gear is supposed to retract then shoot out into the flywheel to engage it to start the motor. 
    Have you looked for a 2nd ground wire that goes from the motor to the frame? It should be checked I had starter problems  and it was the 2nd ground wire corrosion.

I did notice that in the pictures.
The rebuilder guy said it was designed that it didn't retract until the machine started. That's why it was out when I brought it in.

I will look and see if there is another ground wire. And check the main ground wire from the battery to the frame. I have replaced both the main ground wire to the frame and the hot wire from the battery to the starter at least once each. But not lately.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #91 on: January 14, 2014, 11:18:09 AM »
Saturday it rained here all day and washed away the snow from Friday.

Sunday was a bright and sunny day, very warm over 40F.

I had two meetings, one) I looked at a pile of logs. The customer and I measured up the logs and he's got 26 of them of various lengths, types and diameters. He's hoping that I can mill them all into timbers for a timber frame shed he wants to build. He may even host a class here in my own hometown when his timbers are done.
We'll see how this all works out.

After my second meeting it was very mild and sunny out. I put the rebuilt starter in and the machine started right up. I moved two logs to the mill and got some firewood slaps for the shop stove.

Yesterday when I got in it was around 30 F and I plugged in the battery pad. After a while I tried and the machine started right up. I didn't need any heater under the tarp or battery charger on the spare battery.
I will still think about replacing the original battery soon.

Anyway off to the mill to start sawing two 16' long pine logs that my customer saw at the end of the log pile:

 

  

Above is one of these two logs. In our conversation the customer told me that when he comes over to pick it up he'd like me to cut each board in half as he only can transport and store 8' long boards. Wow, how nice to know up front.
I suggested that I cut them in half first so that it would be easier to saw and get the quarter sawn pieces out of these logs he wanted. He agreed.

So, now to get the mill running.

I haven't had it started in a while as it has been so cold, or snowing, or raining. But anyway it fired up and then died. I tried to fire it up again but the battery was a bit low and needed to little help.
I connected the battery charger to it, it isn't even a few months old, but anyhow I noticed that the charger clip turned a bit when I clipped it onto the negative battery pole:

 

 

Luckily I had a replacement one on hand an it didn't take too long to put it in. It's nice when you go to the spare parts box and what you need is there and ready for you.

I cut up one of the 8' logs from the other log not pictured. I got a lot of nice quarter sawn stock out of it and the customer saw them today and he liked what he saw.

I was about half way through sawing the second 8' log when the alternator on the sawmill stopped working.
It would not put out enough juice to make the hydraulics work.

Ok, so back to the parts box. And yes, I did have a spare alternator in it. But it was all dirty and looked as it I swapped it out and didn't get it rebuilt. What a bummer.

I called the rebuilder shop and it was 4:30 pm and asked them what time did they close. He said 5 pm. And that they opened at 8 am.

I knew I didn't have enough time to get the one in the machine out and get over there before 5 pm.
I just took it out and put the two of them into the car for this morning.

I just got back from there, and guess what? The spare worked fine on the test bench. So they are rebuilding the one I took out, and he said it should be done soon.

It's raining here again now. And I don't know if I'll go out and try and put the spare in or wait a while till it stops, which it probably won't stop raining until tonight after dark.

I hope everything will go back together smoothly.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #92 on: January 14, 2014, 11:37:58 AM »
I hope everything goes back together smoothly too. If that was my yard it would be all ice. Not much is melting here. It is 42 but the yard ice is hanging on.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2014, 01:10:17 PM »
Rebuilder called a short while ago, alternator is done.
Still raining hard here now. Looks like I won't be putting one of them in till tomorrow.....

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #94 on: January 21, 2014, 01:50:03 PM »
A messed up gear on a starter drive will certainly give you problems .Usually it causes problems with the starter bushing which cocks the armature and cause further problems .

By the looks of the starter drive it would come as  no surprise if the flywheel ring gear didn't have some worn spots in it .

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #95 on: February 06, 2014, 09:54:30 AM »
It's been a while since I posted in this thread. It was warm here for a while and I didn't have any trouble starting the machine, until last Friday. When I started the machine, warm day over 32F the starter didn't dis-engage the flywheel, so I shut it right off. Tried again, same thing. Third time it dis-engaged. I said to myself, "that's strange"....
Moved some stuff around and shut it off.

When I went to start it again same thing. Didn't dis-engage. Third time it wouldn't turn over.
I looked at my watch and it was 3:30pm on a Friday afternoon. I knew the rebuilder shop was open until 5 pma and they were closed on Saturday and I had customers coming on Saturday and Sunday to pick up lumber and I needed the forklift to be running.
So I pulled the starter and headed right out to the rebuilder's shop. I got there shortly after 4PM and I knew they closed at 5pm so I thought that maybe I had a chance, that they could look at it and tell me what's up.
When I got there they were already drinking beer.
But they said they'd take a look at it.
It seems that the end that pushes out to engage the flywheel had twisted and wouldn't retract. They figured out that the snap ring had shifted or something like that and got the end back into position and replaced the snap ring and put it all back together again, while I was standing there watching them work on it. I don't normally walk into the work area but I had to use the washroom as I rushed away from the sawmill without going to the house first.
After it was put back together again he said "here you go". And he didn't charge me anything. I was very happy about that.
Got back before dark and put it in and it has been working fine every since.

When I traveled VT on the 30th, I stopped by the backhoe dealer place in Concord NH to see if he had a lower radiator hose on hand. I wanted to know in case I screw up the installation of the radiator hose heater, that I got. And haven't installed yet.
I'm just about going to have to take the radiator out to get enough room to get in there and remove the lower hose, cut it just right, and put it all back together again.
Hopefully without it leaking. He didn't have one. I would have bought it if he did, as I could return it if I didn't need it. And he said he could get one very quickly should I need it. I'm waiting for a nice warm day when I don't have any need for lifting lumber to ship out and can take the machine apart, and get this installed.

In the meantime, I ordered and got delivered after several failed attempts an oil pan heater. It is a stick on type. The instructions said to take the paint off your oil pan and make sure your oil pan is free from all grease and oil.
I couldn't see the need and I didn't have the access to the bottom of the oil pan that I would like to have in order to remove the paint from the bottom. So I didn't.
I did clean it with some de-greaser and got it as clean as I could, should have taken more time and did a better job. But it was about dark and I needed to keep moving.
I stripped the stickum paper off the heater pad and pressed it onto about the only flat spot on the bottom of the oil pan I could find. And I pressed and pressed it on till it stuck on good and I think I did ok, not great but ok.

Here is a shot of the oil pan heater in place:

 

 

The bar below it is the tie rod for the front wheels steering.

And I have the wire hooked up with wire ties so that the tie rod won't rub it.

It snowed here yesterday, and I have to now plow out the sawmill driveway, my mother's house driveway, and the sawmill yard of 9 to 10" of snow.

When I got here this morning I pugged in the battery heater pad, the oil pan heater, and the battery charger to make sure my battery is up to full and ready.
I think I know why they suggested or instructed to remove the paint from the bottom of the oil pan. I can smell something like paint burning. Or it could be just some of the excess grease that I didn't get completely off the spot.
But the instructions didn't say for how long to leave this heater on. I re-read them again this morning.

I have had it on for about 2 hours and I'm going out now to see if the machine will start without putting the propane heater under the tarp which is over the machine.

It would be great if it would "just fire up" and I could get on with plowing out everything.

I'll let you know how I make out.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #96 on: February 06, 2014, 10:03:19 AM »
I have a small magnetic heater for the wood splitter. Just a hand held one really. I have a old Subaru with 220,000 miles on it. The cold nights we was having,that car would hate to start. I use the hand held heater on the oil pan,but I used it all night, Started right up than. I also put an old blanket over the engine too. I kept some out on the drivers side so I could see it. Get that oil warm and that should make a BIG diffeance.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #97 on: February 06, 2014, 10:11:41 AM »
Started right up.
Off to plow for a while.
Jim
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #98 on: February 06, 2014, 10:14:28 AM »
That is good.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Hard starting in cold weather questions
« Reply #99 on: February 06, 2014, 12:09:23 PM »
That is good.

yes that is. Let's hope it will do the same tomorrow morning.
So far all is ok. about half done plowing. Just stopped to get mother her lunch.
Just finished her driveway, just before the meals on wheels girl got there.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension


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