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The Cost of learning

Started by Mt406, February 15, 2014, 12:18:28 AM

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Mt406

I will start from the begging, I got my new mill in Aug, a D&L swing blade 10/20 37hp, insert blade.
It was oct before I had a wood lot or logs.
I started having trouble from the start, a lot of side to side motion cutting deep horizontal cuts.
I think the shipping Co  was ruff with the mill, things weren't true it took a lot of tinkering to get things running right.
At least now I had the blade running square to the kerf (or with some lead)
Still having  trouble on longer and bigger logs and the mill would drag like I was pushing up hill.
It would cut small logs ok.
I have pics.

  
Being as green as some of the logs I cut it took me some time to figure out what was wrong.
more pic

 
The swing arm was miss manufactured out of square and to long on the right side, casing the blade to rise and side loading and heat.
It didn't seam hot but the teeth would get burnt.
After that fix I still had poor cuts, which I though was me not sharping right.
Today I started on a short log 8ft  32in tip.
Cut some 4x4s and then a 6x10 started another 6x10  I make a 4in pass then a 6in after the 4 things weren't right.
Wrong sound and vibration looked at the blade wobbling like a bent car rim and to hot to touch.
I think it wasent my sharping as much as, the side loading caused the blade to lose tension.
I took some pic of how far out line the blade moved 5/16.


 
this is a photo of the horizontal cut, first pass I am pointing at with file the other kerf is from the return , I cut the piece out and it is on its side.
I may have aggravated the situation by sharping my teeth to many times, how short is to short?


  

 
The blade is in my truck going to saw Doc on Mon If thay can get me in, its a 175 mile to Missoula closest one that I  know of.
I am still having fun despite the set backs, chock it off to the cost of learning.
Hope this is understandable, righting is not one of my skills
I always welcome input 

Thanks Scott

bandmiller2

Scott,  have you talked to the old fella that built your mill.? Unless something really got damaged in shipment it should be simply adjustments. I would not try to get so much out of a set of bits when your using so few non a saw it pays to have them in top notch condition, a box of 100 will last you a long time. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Mt406

I did call. Hes going to stop by in a week or so, I will get the complete crash course.

bandmiller2

That's good news Scott. With any mill its all in the fine adjustments. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

SquareG

I've never run a sawmill, shopping for one.  If you don't mind some questions.  Heck, maybe there will be some common good.  I'm likely worth what I costed you.

In the horizontal cut, the blade is supposed to have some lead, to compensate for sag from gravity?  Lead would be up?  Barely, alot less than your square eyeball shows?  Lead would be relative with the travel/track?  What are you squaring it with?  They use a string in lundstrom and such, straighten it with the travel, and measure the blade to the string, I think.

Using saw doc for small blades is rare?  They are rather rigid, relative to larger circles like 52", and sometimes docs don't even know what to do with them?  Unless it's visibly bent, I've been under the impression there is no "doctoring" for 30" blades?

Are you running a thin kerf blade?  What is kerf and diameter and gauge of blade?

It looks like your lead up in the horizontal cut is way too much.  It gets by in shallow cuts because the lead is not entirely in the board.  And every sharpen on the bits takes away some small amount of kerf.  More kerf would save a screwed up lead?






Ron Wenrich

If you're looking at that as lead, its a negative lead.  The saw is open, and will heat up because the back end of the saw is dragging on the log.  Lead is where the front end is shorter than the back side. 

Kerf is not lead.  You can file lead into a saw, if you know how to do it. 

This appears to be an alignment problem, not a lead problem. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

SquareG

"Lead refers to the slightly nonparallel alignment of the
guide track and saw plate"

that quote from lundstrom.

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 16, 2014, 09:39:03 AM

This appears to be an alignment problem, not a lead problem. 

Allright, confused, I guess Ron  means alignment of the track itself.

And no, i understand kerf is not lead.

Ron maybe means we shouldn't be calling it lead, but alignment, because sometimes the cant is above the blade, and sometimes below.  The term lead must be for stationary sawheads only.

Lundstrom again "Lead should not be forced into the saw by sharpening the teeth with a high
side"

I was not proposting Scott file lead into it, I assumed only that kerf width decreased with grinding the bits, as they appear tapered in the last picture.  The blade would have a greater probability of center heating as the kerf narrows I was thinking.  Would explain why Scott got by this long.  Been using it quite a while to grind the bits down that much?

There is maybe a term other than  "kerf width".  In that case, pardon my illiteracy.

Thanks for the thread and pictures
Shannon


drobertson

this is an adjustment issue plane and simple, whether railing or the head, one or the other or both, my uneducated guess, too many miss matches,   hope you figure it out,    david,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Mt406

One thing for sure I have a problem.
I am leaning toward a blade problem. going to see saw doc tomorrow.
When I have the blade back on the mill, going to go though a complete check of alignment.
I will give a update on what the saw guy says and if I find anything with the mill.
When the factory guy is by next week I want a fresh blade, so if I still have a problem we can rule that out I hope.

Thanks for the input

Scott 

backwoods sawyer

A while back a spent some time sawing with an older guy running a lucus mill and he was having the same issues.

He had been working on the alignment the last time he had used it and we knew there was an issue when the mill was set up. As he went thru the adjustments, he was having trouble turning the bolts the right direction (say right/turn left) so he talked me thru all the steps and it improved considerably, but there was still another issue, In checking the mill over we found and changed a pair wallered out carriage wheels and that resolved the issue. 
Backwoods Custom Milling Inc.
100% portable. . Oregons largest portable sawmill service, serving all of Oregon, from our Backwoods to yours..sawing since 1991

Ron Wenrich

Take the blade off and run your square across the collars and see if its square.  That would take the blade out of the equation.  If its square, then its a blade problem.  If its out of square, then you have an adjustment problem. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

reride82

Scott,
Yes, Missoula Saws, Inc. is the closest saw shop to you, unless there is one in Idaho south of you. I would say you definitely ran those teeth a bit far. Is your angle the same as from the factory? It looks like your sharpened angle is a little shallower, or sharper, than factory. Would that effect how the sawdust chips enter and stay in the gullet? Maybe they were being forced out of the gullet and into the kerf next to the blade and causing heating? I'd definitely try new teeth after getting that blade re hammered.

Levi
'Do it once, do it right'

'First we shape our buildings, then our buildings shape us'
Living life on the Continental Divide in Montana

Mt406

The trip was worth it, Saw school, Missoula saws were very helpful.
The blade wasn't in to bad of shape a little dished and he said it had to much rim tension.
The combination of to short teeth, frozen wood, can lead to blade heat.
They Also feel I have a alignment issue.
I was told not to be cheap with teeth, change them more often.

So tomorrow I will go though the alignment.   
   

Ianab

QuoteI was told not to be cheap with teeth, change them more often.

Good advice. The swing mills I'm familiar with use carbide cutters braised to the blade, or to an insert like yours. You only get so much sharpening before there isn't enough carbide left, and it disintegrates. Then it's obvious you need new cutters.  :D

This usually happens before the teeth are so worn that you get problems with the cuts lining up.

Actually to tell the truth, I usually hit metal before I wear the cutters down to nubs, but the end result is the same. New teeth.  :D They are a consumable item.

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Mt406

Went though the alignment its cutting good now. had to tweak a few things and re level track.
Things wearnt off by much but they all added up, frozen wood didn't help

Thanks for the input

Scott   

SquareG

I'm curious if you ended up with any alignment lead up or down on the blade in the horizontal cut, or dead on.

Thanks,
Shannon

Mt406

I have maybe 1/32 lead and close to the same on the back vertical cut.
Looking forward to cutting more. sawed 250 bf on fri and I was happy with how it was cutting.
I have to shut down for major cleaning saw dust is getting deep, didn't keep ahead of it.
So I ended up 1in saw dust 2" snow more saw dust more snow its over a foot deep, time to pull up the track and get the skid steer.
I should be sawing by Wed I will take some pic of the saw pattern and see what every one thinks

Scott

drobertson

good deal! nothing like having a lil confidence in the mill,  happy for you,    david
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

SquareG

If cutting a rr tie from a 13" log, for example, lead would be negative on the bottom and right hand cuts, or vice versa.  But I shouldn't have to see it to believe it I guess.  If it works, it works.

Shannon

bandmiller2

Big mills have a sawyer and a millwright on the payroll, us little guys the sawyer is the millwright. Glad things are working well. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

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