The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

AVAILABLE


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat



Author Topic: Brace Layout Question and Answers  (Read 40890 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline hayton1960

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 58
  • Location: England
  • Gender: Male
  • All opportunities are equal, some are more equal then others.
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2005, 04:28:15 PM »
I read tfg magazine 34, 35 and 36, Marc Guilhemjouans 3 part "introduction to French scribe", which is very useful, only it just sort of ends abruptly and leaves you in mid air not knowing where to go next just when it starts to get real interesting. PS does anybody know what is going on with his new site; the forum is like a ghost town, as far as I can tell I'm the only person who posted anything (except the site manager)! Do I have a fault with my computer?
Cheers Jonathan

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2005, 04:49:12 PM »
What site are you talking about?
Post a link for me to look at it.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline hayton1960

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 58
  • Location: England
  • Gender: Male
  • All opportunities are equal, some are more equal then others.
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2005, 03:14:16 PM »
Hi Jim
The site is a newer version of his old one

www.traditionaltimberframe.com

As far as I can see he has dropped the excellent animated diagrams of how to set out hexagons/septagons/nonagons etc using compasses
I hope this link works OK!

Offline Tony_T

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2005, 04:31:32 PM »
Hi Jim
The site is a newer version of his old one

www.traditionaltimberframe.com

As far as I can see he has dropped the excellent animated diagrams of how to set out hexagons/septagons/nonagons etc using compasses
I hope this link works OK!

Jonathan, the animated diagrams are still there:

http://www.traditionaltimberframe.com/ttfv2/index.php?mod=page&ac=page&id_page=4

It's an interesting site but more geometry layout using a compass than actual applications to framing.  It would be nice if there were some animated diagrams of actually laying out framing pieces.  Though I have used some of the things I learned on that site for layout using my compass.

I'll check out the references 34-36 in tfg.  I'm not a member (yet) so not quite sure how I can locate these?  Are they available online?

Offline hayton1960

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 58
  • Location: England
  • Gender: Male
  • All opportunities are equal, some are more equal then others.
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2005, 05:31:47 PM »
Hello Tony mate
I never had to become a member to get the back issues, I just e-mailed a Mrs Michele Beemer and I got it in the mail soon after. Maybe it is available on a download-I dont know
As I understand it, the traditional French way of setting out relies on using the compass to set out horizontal/vertical/any and all angles for roof pitches etc for the full scale drawing on the floor. Like with decorating or cooking-good preperation is the main part of the job. I think that is why its featured so much on the site. But your right, the actual picage stage where you relate your full scale drawing to your timber and then  mark your mortise positions and tenon shoulders etc, is non existant, in the website and in the tfg articles (I'd still definately recomend those articles though) Maybe you gotta go to one of Marcs courses to proceed further with it?
Cheers Jonathan

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2005, 09:38:02 AM »
Tony_T:
You can buy the magazine online, but you can't access the articles online.
If you want the magazine, go to the guild website www.tfguild.org and click on the online store and go to publications, and you should be able to list what back issues you want and purchase them.
Hope this helps.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jim Haslip

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 49
  • Location: Golden, B.C.,Canada
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2005, 02:23:30 PM »
Hayton,

The (RED) Timber Frame Joinery & Design Book from the Guild has several articles about Hip and Valley Framing written by Ed Levin based on some info from the Compqgnon du Devoir, the French trade guild, using compass layout to determine roof angles instead of Framing Squares. There are 3 articles.

I believe this "RED" book has been superceded by a newer version.
I haven't seen the new one.
Michelle or Sue at the TFG office would be a good place to start looking for a copy.
Ask them if the same articles are in the "Green" book.

Offline hayton1960

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
  • Age: 58
  • Location: England
  • Gender: Male
  • All opportunities are equal, some are more equal then others.
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2005, 03:01:06 PM »
Hi again Jim
That method of developing roof seat cuts/plumb cuts/hip cuts etc on scaled down paper was the first way I was shown to do roofing calculations (from a stick framing point of view) But I found it inacurate-too much transferring from drawing to bevel board, bevel board to sliding bevel etc too much room for acumulated error. I like to work on a full sale if possible (must be a throwback to my digitising days!!) What I like about the french drawing method is that the floor drawing IS the finished dimension of the component, not a scaled down or abstract representation of it. I think on Marcs site he shows you how to make a giant 360 degree protracter on the floor with a large compass, all the 90 deg, 45 deg, 30 deg etc etc
PS I bought what I thought was a good (Stanley) roofing square-cost me about £24 (about $45-$50) The numbers stamped on it are wrong (some of them are repeated where they shouldnt be!)
Cheers Jonathan

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2005, 03:21:30 PM »
Jonathan:
Take that square back, and get a good one.......

Jim:
The new book, the GREEN book has articles in it since the red book was published.

Currently reading it.....
Just picked up my copy at the conference.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2006, 10:13:49 AM »
bump to the top
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2007, 02:46:50 PM »
bump
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline mmhailey

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Age: 67
  • Location: SE Alaska
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm Gonna need a BIGGER Boat!
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2010, 04:38:24 PM »
This thread is invaluable Jim.  :)

I am drawing and redesigning ( sketchup) a set of plans I have, and I was in the process of drawing the braces and housings, when I noticed the Tenons are a bit different from the ones depicted in this thread.  Here is a sketchup pic of the two bearing ends.

 



Am I missing something?  Isn't the one from the plans a lot more work with the chisel, and less bearing surface? The one on the right with the 1 1/2" tenon is from the plans. I do know that this set of plans has no housings and all the dimensions are showing full size timbers 8X8 4X6 etc.

Any one see a problem with changing the braces to housed, and 2" tenon

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and turn him into a liar.

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2010, 06:12:28 PM »
mm:
The reason why one tenon is 2" and the other maybe 1 1/2" could be that the braces are 4" on the 2" tenon and 3" on the 1 1/2" tenon.

Not sure.
But the rule usually is that the tenon on a timber is 1/4 the thickness so if you have a 8x8 then tenon is 2", and a 6x6 the tenon is 1 1/2". But when you're working with 8x8 then usually braces are 4x6 and then they just use a 2" tenon as the layout is already 2" off the layout face and then 2" thick, which puts the tenon flush with the inside of the brace and makes it easy to layout and cut.

When you're working with 6x6's then the braces are usually 3x5 or 3x6 and then the tenon is 1 1/2" so that also make the tenon flush with the inside.

Some people who work with planned timbers so that every side is smooth and have truly 90° corners don't house their timbers or braces. So they just cut a brace to fit flush up against the post or tie beam. So only a mortise is needed, But the cuts have to be prefect or the gap will show, and it' looks like h-e double hockey sticks.....L-L..... Housings hide a lot of imperfections.

Some people like their braces to be centered on the post and one the tie beam so the center the brace tenon and mortise as well.

As I have mentioned and some people don't do this at all, but most frame plans have a set of rules that each joint have to follow, such as creating housings down to the next 1/2" in size smaller inner timber. That is the key to doing "square rule" joinery with rough sawn timbers.

Hope that helps.

Jim Rogers

Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline mmhailey

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 136
  • Age: 67
  • Location: SE Alaska
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm Gonna need a BIGGER Boat!
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2010, 06:59:06 PM »
Thanks Jim,

I have redrawn the braces with a 2" tenon, and the 2" bearing surface, and 1/2" housing.

 



The brace from the plans is a 4X6 into a 8X8 post and tie. The plans show the brace flush with the outside of the frame.
Actually the 1 1/4" brace tenon was the only small one I find. The rest throughout are 2" tenons.

We built this frame when I attended a workshop, and I do remember that the brace stock was planed, probably to an exact 4X6. My guess that is the reason for no housing. 
 
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and turn him into a liar.

Offline witterbound

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 443
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2010, 09:56:46 PM »
IMO, un-housed braces with shoulders on two sides are very difficult to cut and fit.  The shoulders have to be parallel to each other when you are cutting them, then if the timber isn't perfectly square, one shoulder may fit and the other one won't. 
Then if your timber shrinks, it can pull away from the tight shoulder you've fit.    I believe it's much easier to get a clean look by only having one shoulder, and housing it (which isn't that much work to do).

Offline Mad Professor

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
  • Location: Northeast
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2010, 11:31:41 PM »
You can lay them out with a divider from irregular wood if needed same as is with posts and ties

Mate them to the posts using the same divider settings using the true post/tie (e.g. a housing).

Best to set up a 3/4/5 triangle on the post and tie to make sure they are square. Use the centerlines and the divider

Offline Piston

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1815
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Upton, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Brick by brick my friends...brick by brick!
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2010, 03:41:41 AM »
Jim,
When milling timbers for braces should I mill them 1/8ths inch thicker?  So if I want a 4x6 brace do I mill it 4 1/8thx6?  I think you told me this before but I get confused on which timbers to cut slightly over sized and which ones not to? 

I know you had mentioned to mill certain timbers slightly larger to allow for shrinkage, and I believe the braces were included in that list.  I'm glad this thread came up again. 
-Matt
“What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race.”

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2010, 11:03:21 AM »
Jim,
When milling timbers for braces should I mill them 1/8ths inch thicker?  So if I want a 4x6 brace do I mill it 4 1/8thx6?   

Yes, we mill all brace stock thicker then the layout dimensions, that is 2" off the layout face and then 2" thick makes 4" and to allow for width shrinkage, we add 1/8" to make it 4 1/8".
On 1 1/2" by 1 1/2" layout for 3x5 braces we add 1/8" as well.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline Piston

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1815
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Upton, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • ...Brick by brick my friends...brick by brick!
    • Share Post
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2010, 11:58:31 AM »
Thanks Jim....
I think you said that if I had to ask you a third time then you were gonna tell me to get lost!!! That was my second time asking so since it's written down now I should be okay  :D
-Matt
“What the Lion is to the Cat the Mastiff is to the Dog, the noblest of the family; he stands alone, and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed his temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race.”

Offline Jim_Rogers

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7043
  • Age: 66
  • Location: Georgetown, MA
  • Gender: Male
  • Keep your chisels sharp.
    • Share Post
    • jrsawmill.com
Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2010, 01:39:01 PM »
It's, if you ask me a third time, I'll tell you to write it down...... :D :P
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
rafter joints at ridge question and answers

Started by Jim_Rogers on Timber Framing/Log construction

8 Replies
2724 Views
Last post August 15, 2015, 09:05:08 AM
by Jim_Rogers
xx
Brace question

Started by addicted on Timber Framing/Log construction

4 Replies
889 Views
Last post August 23, 2013, 11:53:32 AM
by addicted
xx
H Brace Question

Started by Ironhead80 on General Board

3 Replies
503 Views
Last post June 23, 2016, 08:56:54 PM
by Magicman
xx
question on size of brace

Started by laffs on Timber Framing/Log construction

16 Replies
4379 Views
Last post December 30, 2010, 06:20:43 PM
by laffs
 


Powered by EzPortal