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Author Topic: Brace Layout Question and Answers  (Read 36350 times)

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Offline klpauba

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2016, 11:31:08 PM »
Not to belabor the point, but ...

How about a 30-60-90 degree brace layout instead of a 3-4-5 layout?  I think the program that Jim uses was adjusting the legs of the 3-4-5 triangle so the measurement of the angles were in whole degrees.  This makes sense to me since it would be difficult to layout fractional angles.

Using a 30-60-90 triangle is not that far off of a 3-4-5 (36.87-53.13-90 degree) triangle and has the same advantage as the 45-45-90 degree triangle in that two of the three lengths can be easily calculated (and can be whole numbers) while the remaining is a fractional dimension.  In the 30-60-90 triangle, if the hypotenuse is x, the shorter leg is x/2 and the longer leg is x*sqrt(3)/2.

Maybe the program Jim uses would dimension out this type of brace perfectly since the angles would remain whole numbers (unless he is unable to enter the length of the hypotenuse and shorter leg to force the calculation of the longer leg).

Now, whether the 30-60-90 brace provides adequate reaction to the racking forces in a frame, I cannot answer.

Offline Roger Nair

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2016, 11:22:40 AM »
Klpauba, I have no issue with your math, but as a retired lifelong carpenter, I would ask what are the tools of your kit?  If you don't have an alpha square with quadrant or the Orem super square, then it would be better to solve angles by using slope ratios regulated with the common framing square.  A carpenter can frame a building to a high standard without knowing the degree of arc of many significant angles, it's all worked out with slope ratios of right triangles.  If I need to solve framing problems with angles of arc, I use a calculator that handles trig and roots and convert solutions to slope, so I still use the framing square as the regulating tool.  Good luck.

P.S.  I like to take what seems like the most direct path and that is a matter of tools and habit. 
An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Offline klpauba

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2016, 10:01:11 AM »
Klpauba, I have no issue with your math, but as a retired lifelong carpenter, I would ask what are the tools of your kit?  If you don't have an alpha square with quadrant or the Orem super square, then it would be better to solve angles by using slope ratios regulated with the common framing square.
<snip>

No angles involved here.  As I mentioned, a hypotenuse of x and the smaller leg of the triangle is x/2.  Only a framing square is required to lay it out.  It could also be done with only a compass and a straight edge but most of us aren't that primitive.

I appreciate and welcome the dialog!

Offline Roger Nair

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2016, 10:46:03 AM »
Your posts seem to be going in different directions.


"How about a 30-60-90 degree brace layout instead of a 3-4-5 layout?  I think the program that Jim uses was adjusting the legs of the 3-4-5 triangle so the measurement of the angles were in whole degrees.  This makes sense to me since it would be difficult to layout fractional angles."

and

"No angles involved here.  As I mentioned, a hypotenuse of x and the smaller leg of the triangle is x/2.  Only a framing square is required to lay it out.  It could also be done with only a compass and a straight edge but most of us aren't that primitive."

So how do you layout the angles on the brace ends?   



An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Offline klpauba

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2016, 11:32:44 AM »
Not two different directions ... two different subjects.

The first was describing why Jim's program didn't allow a 3-4-5 layout because it seems to force whole degrees.  I offered an alternative where you can layout another right triangle that has a special property where the length of the small leg is one half of the length of the hypotenuse.  It just happens that the triangle with this property is a 30-60-90 degree triangle but there is no need to lay it out using the angles.



It might be hard to see but the dimensions of the hypotenuse given in the image above are 6" and the short legs are 3".  The hypotenuse is coincident with the layout line (offset from the edge of the brace in the same manner used when laying out a 45 degree brace).

Offline Roger Nair

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2016, 12:10:17 PM »
That is, to me, a new method of angle layout, I will put that into my bag of tricks.
An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Offline klpauba

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2016, 02:32:48 PM »
Roger,

As you mentioned in the discussion with Carpenter (Reply #43-44), using a 3/8 layout line for non-45 degree braces is not ideal.  Assuming the brace will have the smaller leg oriented on the tie beam, an offset of 7/16" is necessary on the end that will go into the post. This will mate closely with a pocket depth of 1/2".  If the layout line offset on the other end (at the beam) is also 7/16", the bearing surface will protrude the same amount (1/2") from that brace pocket.  Your method of fashioning a trammel would allow the protrusion to be eliminated.

Another alternative to the trammel would be to calculate the offset on the beam end of the brace based on the chosen brace length.  For example, a 36" brace (measured on a reference line) would have the post-side offset at 7/16" (at the 0" mark) and a beam-side offset of 1/4" (at the 36" mark).  The layout dimensions for this brace are then: 36" hypotenuse, 18" (36"/2) shorter leg and 31+3/16" longer leg.

I recently cut a mailbox post based on Jim Roger's drawing (at his workshop in Nebraska just last week).  I hope to make another one but with the 30-60-90 brace -- I think that looks a bit more refined.

Offline klpauba

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2016, 03:13:19 PM »
For completeness (and for anyone using more primitive methods for laying out joints), this link describes a method to get a 30 degree (or 60 degree) angle using just a straight edge and compass, have a look at http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Trisecting_an_angle.html (the description is in the third paragraph).  To make the right angle shown in the drawing, use the method described at http://whistleralley.com/construction/c1.htm.

Please note that the method given will trisect a 90 degree angle only -- but is what would be needed for the 30-60-90 degree layout.

Offline Roger Nair

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2016, 06:56:25 PM »
For those who might want to layout a plan or pattern board, I suggest bisecting an equilateral triangle.  That should get you there  quickly without much accumulated error, four lines and five sweeps.
An optimist believes this is the best of all possible worlds, the pessimist fears that the optimist is correct.--James Branch Cabell

Offline Carpenter

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2016, 11:03:12 PM »
I did make 3/4/5 braces for a pergola that I built this spring.  It was actually quite simple.  I laid out a few on scrap 2x6s before cutting any joinery. 

Basically, don't worry about the 3/8" layout line.  I use stair buttons and I had them set on the 9" and the 12" mark.  (Here's a little tip, when you use stair buttons don't set the buttons on the mark, set the buttons where the edge of the wood is on the mark, it will be a little different depending on the buttons you are using and the angle).  So, once I had established that, I had both angles already on the framing square.  I wanted a half inch nose off of the reference face.  So I could put the framing square on the timber and draw the nose, (the bearing surface of the brace).  Without moving the framing square I would put a tick mark at the 1/2" mark from the edge of the timber,  then I could slide the framing square to where it matched the tick mark and mark my shoulder cut.  Then I would slide the framing square back the other way until the 3" line matched up with my shoulder cut and that would be my end cut, if I want a 3" tenon on the brace.  (I intended to make a you tube video of this, it might sound confusing but is really quite simple).  To get the length, just measure down the timber and where the half inch nose of the other end of the brace corresponds with your measurement you can lay out the nose of the other end of the brace, and make a tick mark.  Slide the framing square to where it corresponds with that tick mark and mark your shoulder.  And, by this point you've probably already figured out how to get a 3" tenon without taking out the tape measure.  For the length, trammel points as per Roger Nair's suggestion would be best.  I had pretty good results with a tape measure.  You could also step it off with the framing square.


     

Offline klpauba

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #70 on: September 08, 2016, 09:13:13 AM »
Thanks for the procedure, Carpenter!  It's great to close the loop on the 3-4-5 layout.  I would probably prefer this layout over the 30-60-90 since it's closer to the 45 degree layout with about the same effort.  This is yet another example on how the experience of cutting joints (like yours) trumps intellectual exercises (like mine).

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #71 on: September 08, 2016, 09:58:33 AM »
I did make 3/4/5 braces for a pergola that I built this spring.  It was actually quite simple.  I laid out a few on scrap 2x6s before cutting any joinery. 

Basically, don't worry about the 3/8" layout line.  I use stair buttons and I had them set on the 9" and the 12" mark.  (Here's a little tip, when you use stair buttons don't set the buttons on the mark, set the buttons where the edge of the wood is on the mark, it will be a little different depending on the buttons you are using and the angle).  So, once I had established that, I had both angles already on the framing square.  I wanted a half inch nose off of the reference face.  So I could put the framing square on the timber and draw the nose, (the bearing surface of the brace).  Without moving the framing square I would put a tick mark at the 1/2" mark from the edge of the timber,  then I could slide the framing square to where it matched the tick mark and mark my shoulder cut.  Then I would slide the framing square back the other way until the 3" line matched up with my shoulder cut and that would be my end cut, if I want a 3" tenon on the brace.  (I intended to make a you tube video of this, it might sound confusing but is really quite simple).  To get the length, just measure down the timber and where the half inch nose of the other end of the brace corresponds with your measurement you can lay out the nose of the other end of the brace, and make a tick mark.  Slide the framing square to where it corresponds with that tick mark and mark your shoulder.  And, by this point you've probably already figured out how to get a 3" tenon without taking out the tape measure.  For the length, trammel points as per Roger Nair's suggestion would be best.  I had pretty good results with a tape measure.  You could also step it off with the framing square.
Please do, I have a LOT of braces to make...

 
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 38" cut Bandmill up to 54' - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline ziggy

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2018, 01:25:35 AM »
Bumping an oldie but a goodie here... 

Any tips for laying out brace mortises to be flush with the inside face (which is opposite the reference face) of posts and beams? I'm thinking a brace with a single shoulder. I'd like the braces to be to the inside of timbers to be able to install screen (in a frame) flush with the outside of the timbers. Any thoughts on that? 

Oh, square rule and irregular timbers, not mill rule. 

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2018, 09:01:52 AM »
Using the measurements from the adjacent face you should be able to create the joint on the inside face. You'll need to be consistent with your offsets. What I mean is if your timbers are over sized by an eight of an inch your mortise location maybe offset from the inside face by 1/8 of an inch.

When we did this frame:


 
The braces were to the inside, for the same reason, and it came out ok.
good luck
Jim Rogers
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2018, 09:13:54 AM »
Ok nice, I try to avoid measuring off the non-reference face for obvious reasons. Will just have to be careful like you said. Thanks!


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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2018, 09:25:04 AM »
What I mean to say is that they may not be flush with the inside face. I would measure in a consistent distance on both the posts and the beam to ensure that the mortises match. And you may have a wider housing if the timber is oversized much.

Jim Rogers


 
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Offline ziggy

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2018, 10:21:13 AM »
Got it. This is off topic, but how are you enclosing the gable ends on the frame in the image you shared? Or will they remain open.

Thanks for the quick replies Jim.

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2018, 10:56:00 AM »
I didn't finish off the screen porch; the customer did. So I don't know what he did without asking him to send me a completed picture.
sorry about that.
Jim Rogers
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Offline TimFromNB

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #78 on: July 12, 2018, 09:16:57 PM »
Jim,
About the 1/8th extra thickness you add to braces. I assume you pair down that inner face to 4 inches to get a tight fit? My braces are up to 1/8" under nominal 4" . This will leave a gap in the mortise. Should I layout my mortises at 3 7/8"? I could lay out a 2" mortise 1 7/8" from the reference face?

Thanks,
Tim

Offline IMERC

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Re: Brace Layout Question and Answers
« Reply #79 on: July 13, 2018, 07:41:03 AM »
Jim,
Thanks for all the information and your time and effort to write this all up...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish.... Here fishy fishy....


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