Shop drawing feedback

[danreed76]

I've started putting my shop drawings together (or attempting to anyhow). 

Looking at the below, Is this the kind of information I need to put in my shop drawings, or do I need to just mark the locations of the joints and have a separate drawing for what each size joint looks like?  I tried putting a triangle on the reference faces, but sketchup doesn't seem to like that, and coloring the reference faces kind of made the shop drawings hard to read.

As always, any feedback is appreciated!



 

[Dave Shepard]

How would one view that large enough to actually read it? I generally don't work off of shop drawings, unless there is a special joint, usual a repair scarf. If you follow a set of joinery rules, then you really only need some plan view and elevations for your frame. All joinery is say 2"/2", and all timbers reduced 1/2", then you don't need to spell everything out unless there is a special feature.

[danreed76]

Dave:

I was planning on printing these on either 11 x 17 or larger.  The screenshot is definitely hard to read, but printed in larger form, they are legible.  I've been playing with different ways of exporting them, as resolution seems to be an issue at times.

All the joints in the frame are consistent, but as an amateur my concern was missing something (leaving a joint out, only to notice it on raising day). 

I guess I could make detail drawings of the joints, and only pull the critical dimensions, labeling which joint goes where.   

[danreed76]

Learned something new today... I finally got sketchup to let me paint the reference and adjacent faces without throwing the shop drawings off (downloaded and reinstalled the TF rubies, then everything works fine).  When you paint faces, it not only allows you to see them more clearly in the shop drawing, it also marks them with a heavier arrowhead pointing to the painted face.

[BigJim2185]

Dan -
As another guy on the beginner end of the scale, it looks good to me.  I'm working with a frame designer on my plan, and he is providing a breakout of each timber similar to what you have here.  I can see where once you get rolling, like Dave said, you won't need everything spelled out...but I also understand why you would want it.  My plan is to line all like-timbers up and make one measurement/mark/cut at a time moving down the line, then return to the beginning for the next measurement.  I know I will be leaning heavily on the shop drawings, at least while I get rolling.  As long as you can make the timber you need from the drawings you have...

Thanks for the sketchup tip also.

Dave - stupid question for you.  What do you mean when you say all timbers reduced 1/2"?  1/2" housings?

[Dave Shepard]

Yes, for square rule layout.

[Jim_Rogers]

What do you mean when you say all timbers reduced 1/2"?  1/2" housings?

First of all there are no stupid question here. Just questions that need answers.

You may need to read my story about "general frame rules"... I don't have a link right here right now. But you should be able to find it with a search of this section with my name as the author.

We really don't like to say " 1/2" housings". Because we don't know if the housing will actually be 1/2". It all depends on the exact size of the timber when it is delivered to the shop/cutting floor.
We say the timber is reduced to the next 1/2" lower in size.

What I mean is if the timber is suppose to be an 8x8 and it isn't then we reduce it down to a 7 1/2" x 7 1/2" at the joint. To do that we draw our lines 7 1/2" off the reference face/edge.

Now if the timber is 7 7/8" then it isn't a 1/2" housing, it's 3/8" so we need to understand that it is said as " 1/2" under.
If the timber is 8 1/8" thick then it is still reduced down to 7 1/2" thereby taking out a 5/8" housings.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. You need to think of it as 1/2" under, not a 1/2" housing. We don't measure off the face the housing is cut into and just make it 1/2" deep.

Do you understand what I mean?

Jim Rogers

[BigJim2185]

I think I follow.  I'll check out the general frame rules story as well.  I think I may have read it over before, but obviously didn't soak it all in.  Thanks Jim and Dave.  Dan - sorry to hijack the thread.  Back to your drawings...

[danreed76]

Dan - sorry to hijack the thread.  Back to your drawings...

No worries... I was actually typing a response to direct you to a couple of Jim's threads on square rule layout and how the timber reduction plays in, but Jim got his up first so that's even better.  I think every thread strays a bit; as folks read and learn it provokes questions.  Guys like Dave and Jim regularly share lots of valuable information, so when a question comes to mind, ya gotta ask!

After giving it some thought, I've started pulling all my measurements on the shop drawings from the reference or adjacent face, simply to develop the habit of working from these two faces.

[Brian_Weekley]

Like you, I started off including too many dimensions on my drawings.  However, I quickly learned most weren't necessary.  I think you'll find the only dimensions you really need for the layout of this example are the following:

36" (to the bottom brace housing)
96.5" (to the tie beam housing)
214.25 (to the upper brace housing)
250.25 (to the upper tenon)*
261.75 (overall length)

*this one you don't have listed directly

You want to lay out your tape and mark all your joint locations at once—no need to have the intermediate measurements included.  Leave things like hole spacing and housing dimensions to separate, detailed joint drawings.  This will keep your post and beam drawings cleaner and easier to read.

[razor]

I've found that I don't really need the shop drawings. Mostly because our design department (me) has a pretty good relationship with the shop floor foreman (me) and his crew (me again). What I really need to know is where the joinery falls on the timber. The details of the joint itself, housings, mortice depth etc. are constant. So my shop drawing is a simple picture of the timber, often hand drawn, with the joinery location dimensions marked out. One tip is to take all your measurements from one end of the timber, that way you can lay your tape on the timber and layout everything in one go without moving the tape. So my first move is to cut the end joint, a tenon say, and then mark out all the rest from the shoulder. Also I don't use the "burn 10" or whatever rule. The tape hook is accurate enough for me thank you. If I'm going to make a mistake I'd rather it be an inch or so and not 10".

[danreed76]

our design department (me) has a pretty good relationship with the shop floor foreman (me) and his crew (me again).

That sounds a lot like the chain of command on my project!  Helps keep the budget low for the company picnic, though! :D

[isawlogs]

 I follow along many of these post, don't often post on them but would like to thank Jim for clearing the air of stupid questions, no such thing here, thanks again Jim  :P

[Thehardway]

Danreed,

I think initially shop drawings can be a good thing.  All of us work from a different experience level and if you haven't done any large volume of joinery design, layout and assembly then a detailed drawing can answer a lot of questions that you might tend to forget as you go through different iterations of your designs.  They serve as a sanity check when its 2:00AM and the last caffeine dose has not yet taken effect.

Of course if you do a lot of repetitive work using the same general design and layout then they can be a waste of time and energy.  This is where things like a story pole can be more useful and a time saver.

I would use caution when laying out multiple timbers and measuring them all at the same time and cutting the same joint in each one in assembly line type production.  This might seem appealing and efficient until you make a mistake and don't find it until you do your first trial assembly. Just because you can draw something on paper does not mean that it can be assembled.  In more than one case, drawings have been done which did not take into account assembly sequence.  Test assembly on first prototype can eliminate this costly and timely potential.

I would suggest doing one full assembly (1 bent, 1 rafter pair,  1 truss, 1 girt with braces) and test fit all joints in each assembly.  If everything fits, use that as a layout pattern and go into production mode but not before.  They only thing worse than making a mistake is repeating a mistake.  It also give you a good opportunity to check your overall assembled dimensions for joint creep and tolerances.

[danreed76]

Thehardway:

Thanks for the advice.  Very sound indeed and sounds like what I had planned. As much as I'd like to think that I can set up production, I feel more comfortable doing my layouts on a one-at-a-time basis, at least starting out.  The fact of the matter is that much of our frame doesn't incorporate "cookie cutter" timbers, so doing batch layouts isn't much of an option save for floor joists, rafters, and braces.

My plan is to cut a bent, test fit it, then stack that bent out of the way.  I was thinking of making a "dummy" tusk tenon to replicate the floor joists and a brace tenon to check any brace mortises which we won't have the opportunity to fit up prior to raising.

I'll try putting together a joinery details sheet to reference for cutting specific joints.  That sounds like a great idea.  Hopefully, as the frame progresses, I'll get better at "following the rules", but I think even then I'll want a good reference handy to look at.

I reckon for me the big thing is there's comfort in having a good drawing handy. 

I'm sure I've over-thought this whole process and it will turn out to be simpler than it seems, but I've gone so far as to "group" the bents in my model to verify they can be assembled in a logical order and there's no odd timber that for some reason can't be installed, and started drafting a "raising plan" based on that.  Overkill?

[Thehardway]

No, I don't see that as overkill.  The thing you will need most is a good nights sleep the night before raising and if that helps then by all means do it.  (you probably still won't sleep but it will be due to excitement rather than fear) It sounds like you have  a well thought out plan and method to get there.   Better to work these things out now than at raising with a crew standing around giving you a thousand suggestions with 999 of them bad.

In any craft we should always be learning and building confidence through successes and failures.  When we fail, it is one less thing to try (process of elimintation) and we succeed it is one more method available as an alternative in the mental tool bag.  It is worth the time to know all your assemblies will fit properly and the drawings are a great reference in case you have some delays and forget exactly how something is supposed to go providing it is not costing you a fortune in time and money to do them. (not that you would have any delays  ;D everything always goes according to plan and timeline 8) 8) 8))

The dummy tenon is a good idea. Replicate one short version of the joists / braces including about 6"-12 beyond the tenon to verify they are all square, depth is right and faces/shoulders snug.

At some point you will feel comfortable with your memory and skills but until then a drawing is a good shop foreman to keep you on track.

[Jim_Rogers]

Maybe it's overkill on my part, but I check every tenon to it's mating mortise before raising day. I do what I call a frame fit up.

That is a test each tenon to each mortise. I call that a one to one test. So for an "H" bent with two braces, I'll check each end of the tie to the posts, one to one. Then each brace tenon, one to one to the post and then the tie. Once all joints in the bent have been tested, one to one, then I put the entire bent together on saw horses so that I can see if all the measurements are correct. I measure across the tie outside to outside and verify that they are correct with the plan dimension. Then I check for outside to outside (of the posts) at the sill to see if the bent is flared out or not. If it is flared out then one of my brace connections is too long, and may need adjusting.
If it is flared in, then one of my brace connections is too small. And may need to be shimmed.

Personally, I don't want a crane sitting still during the raising while we fine tune a tenon so that it fits the mortise. Or the mortise so that the tenon will fit.

On raising day you want everything to go together smooth and no trimming.

Jim Rogers

PS. I also use an excel spreadsheet that lists every "process" that has to be done to a timber on it. And I check them off as they are done so that I know that I have everything done.

I believe I have written about this here before. There are short versions and long versions of the spread sheet. I personally use the long version as it lists every process that needs to be done.

By processes I mean layouts and cuts. For example a top tenon on a post, where you should start your cutting of a post according to Jack Sobon, has three processes. One is the tenon itself. Next is the reduction of the top of the post down to the 1/2" under size. The last is the peg hole through the tenon. So in order to complete a top tenon on a post, where it will connect to a plate, there needs to be three processes done.
After I have laid out the tenon, I score it on my sheet as (.5) point 5 as being half done. After I have laid out the reduction, I score it on my sheet as (.5) as being half done. And so on.
I will not move done the post laying out and knifing other joints until the top tenon is done. If I make a mistake then I can cut the top tenon off and start again, if my stock is long enough. It would be a bad thing to cut all the joints along a post and then screw up the top tenon and loose the post and all the work doing all the other mortises.

[jander3]

I like shop drawings.  However, I only include the stuff I need, like below:



 

You already know mortise and tenon size, etc.  Keep them standard, no need to include the specifics.  I normally print out a detailed blow up of one knee brace mortise so I can remember the dimensions.

On the drawing I put knee brace dimensions on one side to prompt me as to where I am pulling a tape from.