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Author Topic: 353 wet stacking  (Read 3974 times)

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Offline David-L

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353 wet stacking
« on: August 18, 2014, 07:11:13 AM »
353 wet stacking, right before I decided to take the tranny out for repair I was noticing a little oil coming out the exhaust fitting to the exhaust manifold. wondering what the sequence is to start checking why it is wet stacking. Usually I run it right up on the rpm's and don't let it idle to long. I am going to check the drain tube today and make sure that is not blocked and wondering where to look after that. I did replace a 3/4 hydraulic hose through the frame  from the pump to the spool valve awhile back and suppose I could have bent it or plugged it. The one behind the starter off the block. Bad , sticky injector?. I have been running low sulphur fuel from the station and usually run off road but haven't been able to afford a full tank delivery lately. Could fuel have anything to do with that. Thinking of running some tranny fluid through it. Maybe check to see if the injectors are functioning. Tried to get into the search engine on the site but can't seem to access it, I know there have been some threads on this. Trying to save a buck , but will call a Detroit guy for a road service if I have to. Any advice welcomed. thank You.

                                            Thanks  David l
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Offline North River Energy

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2014, 08:11:45 AM »
Does the engine come up to operating temp as it should?
Any other change in run performance, cold start or stack emission?
Any idea when the injectors were last serviced/replaced/cleaned?
Maybe check the valve clearance/injector timing to start. That's minimally invasive and should be done from time to time anyway.

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 03:50:58 PM »
i doubt its an injector sticking.......they will normally freeze open or closed.

we all talk different, if shes slobering on one cylinder i'd suspect a ring is stuck or broke.

Offline David-L

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 06:45:41 AM »
Starts good, Only smokes a little when you tromp on it and isn't skipping. I am going to start with valve adjustment and setting the rack. I look fwd to learning how to do the rack adjustment from the Detroit guy who is coming. Still waiting on the tranny and getting the flywheel turned, rear main seal was leaking also.

                                                             David l

                                               
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Offline timberlinetree

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2014, 05:54:16 AM »
Our tree farmer (353) had oil spewing out the manifold and muffler. We had cf4 oil in it instead of the cf2 oil. Switching helped. Best teacher I ever had was in gym and the Detroit mechanic! Good luck!
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

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Offline H60 Hawk Pilot

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 07:22:51 AM »
Hello Sir:

Wet Stacking

1. It's Hard to Determine the Exact Cause of your Wet Stacking.. I give you some troubleshooting tips.

a. The Wet (fuel) Stacking is too much fuel delivery being delivered into the cylinder. I'd go with a Cracked Injector Cup.  So, instead of high pressure injected fuel... the fuel is dribbled (raw fuel) into the cylinder and over fueled as well... the result >> wet stacking.

b. The best way to check these Cyl's. is remove the exhaust manifold. I don't know if your turbo'd. or not, if so, block the turbo oil feed line to the turbocharger. 

c. The exhaust will tell you quite a lot about this diesel engine.

1. White Smoke is Lack of Compression, caused by unseated valves, or burnt valves or bad rings.  If the white smoke starts to clear up in about 5 to 10 minutes, it's most likely a ring problem.   

I use a welding glove to cover the exhaust port with the palm of my hand.  I can try to seal off the Cyl's with my hand to determine the force of the exhaust out of the exhaust port.

All engines are Air Compressors with Fuel Added (diesel engine).  When you block off the individual cylinders.. the pressure felt will be noticeable. The exhaust will push your hand (somewhat) back. The exhaust output should feel (nearly) the same out of each cylinder. Do this check at a idle and don't stand in front of the engine and have the exhaust blowing out in your face.  Stand off to the side or stand on something to be out of the way the exhaust force to do this check.

2. If you see any type of wetness... what is it -- Fuel or Oil... Coolant ?  If's it's raw fuel.. it has a rancid smell. The oil can be from a real bad set of rings, they are stuck or broken and this cyl. is real pumper (oil). Valve guides will allow oil to migrate into the cyl. but that's sort of an extreme case.

A Cracked head will/ can have coolant come out a exhaust port but other things will show up too. You will (may) have -- Compression of the cooling system and lost of coolant from the radiator. Having coolant come out the exhaust port is uncommon, I mentioned it to know that it's a possibility but rare.   

3. Valve adjustment can hold a valve off it's seat and cause a lack of compression. The 3-53 is two cycle eng. and all the valves are exhaust valves.  Valves will/ can lose adjustment as the valve face wears in. So, if you had .015 clearance when set.. thru wear, the clearance could go down to zero over time. The rocker arm would be riding against the top of the valve and hold the valve(s) off it's seat. This will cause that cyl. to be vented (lack of cyl. compression).   

4. The Injector's on the 3-53 will be stuck open or closed (usually). If the Injector is stuck open.. you will have too much fuel at idle.. and (perhaps) wet stacking at idle.  Once the engine is up to full RPM, the engine will run normally.. all the injector's are full open... including the one that's stuck wide open.

5. Camshaft Lobes Worn.

You can the valves lobes worn off and the valves will barely open and cause a dead cylinder and un-bunt fuel. The Injector lobe can be worn, the fuel can be injected late... and cause a loss of power on that cylinder.

6. Black Smoke... too much fuel. The engine may have a blocked air cleaner and not getting enough air.  Blower seals may be bad in the supercharger and pumping excess oil into the intake... this will be noticeable in all cylinders.

A turbo'd engine can have a failed turbo and lack of boost... this will be noticeable at 1/2 throttle and up. lot's of smoke and engine noise.

Closing:

If you had a IR Heat gun, you could diagnose the engine in just a few minutes by shooting the exhaust ports. The temperatures should be within 30 to 40 degrees of each other. I start the engine completely cold and continue to watch the temperatures come up as the engine comes up to temperature.

If you pull the exhaust manifold... please make sure the exhaust manifold is back in correct position on the cyl. head. If you tighten the exhaust bolts down and the exh. manifold is not in place... you'll break the flange off the cast exh. manifold. This happens a lot when you are not experienced with the 3-53 engine and all the GM engines of this series... so be careful.   

I tried to give you a general overview of what to look for on the 3-53. It's a little difficult to communicate ones knowledge in written form... if you have questions.. let me know.

Avery 
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

Offline David-L

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 07:20:40 AM »
H60 Hawk Pilot.  Thank You for your reply. That's what I like about this site. Just people helping people with knowledge the have gathered from there experiences. Now a day it's hard to get people sometimes to give you the time of day as everyone is in such a rush. Thanks again and I will use your info in my process.

                                                      Best  David L
In two days from now, tomorrow will be yesterday.

Offline H60 Hawk Pilot

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2014, 04:40:11 AM »
David L

Always ready to help. I'm retired now and miss the old days and loved working on diesel engines. I've worked on the entire series of GM Detroit's i.e. 53's, 71's, 92's and the newer 60 series. I have fond memories of the -- 16 V 92's.  I rebuilt them in 50 ton IHC Pay Hauler Dumps. I'd plug the turbo feed lines and run the engine for short time (less than 1 min.). I'd turn most of the overhead shop lights out. I'd watch for (about) 4 inches of red exh. fire cones coming out of the exhaust ports. These 16 red fire cones would appear for a brief 3/4 second when you snapped the throttle wide open. (edit by admin)

My purpose in doing this.. I was checking the injectors (mostly), you'd get a bad rebuilt injector from time to time. When I ran the engine this way, I verified that all the injectors (cyl's.) were firing A Ok and lot's of fun too. I don't have very good hearing these days.. perhaps it was worth it.. more smiles.

I've built lots of diesel engines and the fun part was starting it for the first time. I always checked the exhaust for proper firing. I have found a number of bad parts that were defective from the rebuilding vendor. Mostly, bad injectors, nozzles, bad fuel injector pumps and reconditioned heads that had poor quality valve jobs (valves not seating). 

You can PM me and I'll give you my phone number. It's a little tough to tell someone what to look for without a one on one that's back in forth between us.

Good Luck and Thank You for your kind words (big smile).

Avery
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

Offline timberlinetree

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2014, 06:11:54 AM »
Is wet stacking mean that the exhaust stack is wet or that just black smoke comes out or does both happen? Thanks
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Offline David-L

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 06:24:39 AM »
Fuel or oil or both is getting to the exhaust and creates and oily goo around the exhaust area from manifold and beyond. I am Working on my machine today and will pull the exhaust manifold to see what cylinder is wet. Was up north of me in southern Vermont getting parts the other day and they look like it's been non-stop rain up there. landings were under water.

                                                             David l

                           
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Offline timberlinetree

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 07:19:16 AM »
Thanks Dave I've seen that black goo before. Makes a real mess when it gets on your hands or anything else. Good luck with the repairs.
I've met Vets who have lived but still lost their lives... Thank a Vet

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Offline ozarkgem

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2014, 09:19:30 PM »
I though Detroits were suppose to wet stack. Mine has ever since the overhaul . LOL
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Offline H60 Hawk Pilot

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 04:20:02 PM »
No Diesel is suppose to Wet Stack with excessive fuel, oil or coolant from the exhaust ports. However, the 2 cycle Detroit's were/ are known to Wet Stack and it's common place. If the Wet Stacking is highly visible with lots of stain and built up goo, fix the problem. It can be from running too cold. The thermostat is stuck open and you're running in cold weather. The No# 1 cause is a bad injector (cracked cup) and over fueling that cylinder. In time, you'll wreck that cylinder from over fueling. The cyl. walls will be washed down (fuel) and glaze the liner wall surface.

This engine cyl. will  become a oil pumper (wrecked rings) and have a serious wet stacking problem. The crank case breather will be pressurized with noticeable blow-bye
from the wrecked rings.

Avery

Avery
Case 1150B & IHC TD-340 Dozer's, IHC 4WD 3800 & CAT 436B Hoe's, Franklin 170, Semi's: (1) Freightliner, (2) KW's, Marmon, Mack w/ Prentice Ldr., F-700 Crane Trk., (6) Mid Size Trk's. - Dumps, Flats, 1 Ton w/ 40 ft. 5th Whl. & (4) Semi Tlr's., LM 2000 Mill, (2) XL 12's., Solo 681, EFCO 152, Old Iron.

Offline David-L

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2014, 06:54:30 PM »
The turned flywheel, and misc clutch parts, new rear main seal, pilot, throwout, and disc, psi plate are in. tranny is sitting in skidder on chainfall waiting to be lined up and bolted up. I am busy right now haying and will wrap this up Wednesday. I plan on pulling the exhaust manifold to see what cylinder is wet and take it from there. I have a sneaky suspicion its the rear cylinder.

                                 Thanks David l
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Offline Mooseknuckle

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2014, 08:15:05 PM »
Hey Dave,  can you post some pictures of the wet stacking that you have described.  I would like to compare this to some crud that I have around my 353.  I'll post a picture of my exhaust manifold tomorrow.

Thanks, Matt
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Offline David-L

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2014, 08:29:31 PM »
I will mooseknuckle, won't be around my machine till Wednesday to finish putting it together. Pretty much black goo around the manifold exhaust connection. I keep a long screwdriver around and clean out between the exhaust manifold and valve cover often as stuff can build up there from running under branches, especially pine and hemlock needles.

                                                       David l
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Offline lumberjack48

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2014, 12:28:40 PM »
In all my years of running 3-53's the only time i seen wet stacking was when i had a new green horn operator. Driving the skidder like a car, running in way to high a gear, idling the skidder around on the landing and on the way back to get a another turn. Then running in to high of a gear when skidder is loaded, lugging the motor.
 Any of the above will kill a Detroit. If you see this tar running down your pipes its a sure sigh your ruining your motor because of the way its being driven. When you get on a skidder with a Detroit its petal to medal, loaded, running emty, and do not leave it idling longer 3 to 5 minutes. If its going to idle longer allways set the throttle up to around 1000 rpm to 1200 rpm . I've had to fire guys because they couldn't get it.
Third generation logger, owner operator, 30 yrs felling experience with pole skidder. I got my neck broke back in 89, left me a quad. The wife kept the job going up to 96.

Offline jwilly3879

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2014, 05:15:34 PM »
Nice to see you are still around LJ48

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2014, 07:33:51 PM »
Nice to see you are still around LJ48
+1

yes lj is right about that, i didn't think of it..........i always think every one knows that lol.
also your tune could be off causing it to not turn up. but not normaly an issue with a manual trans.

Offline David-L

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Re: 353 wet stacking
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2014, 09:28:38 PM »
runs on the gov, don't idle it long and the temp is at 190 or so in summer and 180 in winter. pretty much beat on this motor, would not be suprised if there is an injector issue over fueling. This is my third 353 and have always run them hard. people will actually ask me why I am running the rpms up so high who aren't familiar with this 2 stroke diesel. thanks for the input all.

                           David l
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