Basswood

[victorytea]

A logger is coming tomorrow A.M. to take some basswood logs from my property. I really would like to get most of them out of my woodlot so that other, more valuable trees can get some sunlight.  He said we will split the deal "50/50" but also wants to take a few mature maples and some hickory.  He seems like and honest fellow and I have heard nothing negative about him.  I would like to ask- does this sound like a fair deal i.e. after trucking ect. we split the take?  Anything else I should be concerned with?   Thanks for any info.         Paul F B  

[Gary_C]

Yes, there is a lot to be concerned with. Start with exactly how many is "a few." Then who is going to count the loads that go out to cover your interests? And how is he to leave the tops and slash?

Many of these jobs that are done without a forester to mark trees to cut and define the terms of the sale turn out sour. This logger may be perfectly honest and straight forward, but if you do not properly define what is to be done, you will likely end up being unhappy.

To be fair to the logger, if he is going to be there in the morning, it is rather late to get a forester involved now. You may have to do the foresters work yourself and monitor the job closely.

Gary

[Jeff]

I totally agree with Gary_C.  You should be marking the trees if not a forester. This situation sounds like it has the potential for bad things to happen.

Did you sign a contract? I would put on the skids and do a little more research on what you want from your woodland and how to get it. Jumping in with someone that "you have not heard anything bad about" might not be the thing to do.  When those trees are gone, they are gone. Do it right.

[Jeff]

You should have cash in hand BEFORE a tree is cut. Cutting on shares is risky at best. Basswood markets are volitile, sometimes being worth next to nothing.  If the guy gives you a rough time because you want to wait and make sure you are doing the best thing for your forest, then you KNOW he aint the one.

[victorytea]

Thanks Jeff and Gary- I know more now.  The logging operation only took one day and 36 trees were taken in all, mostly basswood, a few hard maples and a couple of hickorys. Mainly I wanted to get the basswood out of there to allow room and light for some more worthy trees.  I rode back on my Ferguson and monitored the process.  I should have posted well before he came and then I would have been able to follow your advise.  The only problem I have is the the skidder operator worked too quickly and scraped up more trees than I would think necessary. The logger is coming on Friday to pay me my "half", he said (before he started the job) between 1000 and 1500 dollars.  The basswood, he said, only brings $250 a thousand but the maples bring about a dollar a foot.  I will let you know how it comes out. Paul F B  

[Ron Scott]

Yes, let us know if all went ok. Are damages being paid for your skinned trees in excess? It sounds like you might have had a tree length harvest. Were you paid for the pulpwood and topwood also?

[victorytea]

Ron;
 Don't know what you mean on a couple of points. What is "tree length harvest"- Pulpwood and topwood  (the tops were left and if I chose to cut them up, I can of course).  I wouldn't know how to ask for skinned trees in excess compensation, It seems like that would be difficult to assess .  I do appreciate your advice and that from the others.  I am glad this is a small job and when I do a harvest in 15 years or so I will be much more dilligent about the contract etc.  It seems to me that if they had cut the logs into trucklength before they brought them out that less damage would have occurred.  They seemed to have the attitude that everything had to be done rapidly.        Paul F B

[Ron Scott]

Paul,

Tree length logging is where the total tree or long tree lengths are skidded from the cutting area to a landing for processing into sawlogs and pulpwood sticks. It sounds like that is what was done.

[victorytea]

Well- I feel like a *DanG idiot!  The guy took all the logs and said he'd be over Friday AM to settle up.  He didn't show and today I tried to call him- the phone's off the hook.  Do I have any recourse for dealing with this thief.  I'm so *DanG angry I feel like I could shoot him.  Please help.      Paul        

[robotguy]

 wow,,, this should be required reading ,,, when i start-up i will REQURE payment up front,  better to have trees still standing and growing that gone and empty hands ..  learn a lot each time i check-in on the forum    

[Jeff]

Maybe he got busy. Keep after him like a flea on a dog for the next few days.

 If he dont settle up soon, or gives you the idear that he dont plan on it,  I'd be glad to give him a call and mention some organizations we can contact and lists we can put him on. ;D

[Gary_C]

Don't get too mad yet. He probably has not been paid for the wood so he does not know how much you should get. Most of the time when you deliver wood to a large mill, the quickest you will get paid is the end of the following week and that is only if you are on the direct deposit system. Just don't let him forget you are still waiting.  

I don't know why some people make promises they know they will not keep, but as they say, "the road to h*** is paved with good intentions."

Even if you had a contract there is probably little you could do at this point. The best thing you could do is to write down everything and take pictures of the work done. Write down everything you remember and especially times, how many trees, what your verbal agreement was, etc.

Gary

[Ron Scott]

Hopefully you will get paid as agreed to and won't need an attorney and a professional consulting forester to help recover any losses.

[victorytea]

Still haven't heard from him, though I left 2 messages on his "message phone".  Apparently the phone wasn't off the hook as I suspected but he uses his landlady's phone for people to contact him.  I would like to thank you guys for being supportive despite the fact that I went about this in an ignorant, impulsive manner.  For now, I will continue to try and contact him.  I wrote some things down as someone suggested and will take pic's tomorrow if I don't hear from him.        Paul

[SwampDonkey]

I have a couple contractors that I do work for quite often and sometimes they say they'll be over at such a time and maybe they don't show. But, I know the guys well and they never try to stiff me at all. Sometimes they have to travel someplace for parts and might be a couple days before they settle up. I never get excited over it. The guys gotta keep the machinery going since they have men under them and I got other work to attend to each day of the week, rather than worry over the exact time they can make it to settle up. Never had to wait longer than 2 weeks and I always have work contracts for jobs. Just don't get impatient. ;)

cheers

[Ron Scott]

Ditto! I've found that when loggers say "tomorrow", it's usually "two weeks" from tomorrow.

[victorytea]

today I went to his residence and (since he was not at home) left a note for him to call me at work. No call.  I left messages on his "message phone" answer machine all w/e- no call.  I am going to give this guy until Friday, just in case there was a miscommunication about which Friday, and then I am going to start some sort of legal action.  Today I took pictures of the trees that were damaged just getting the 36 trees out. Tomorrow, I suppose, I should get pic of the stumps.  I know you guys are sympathetic to loggers and I can understand that- most are honest, hardworking individuals doing a very dangerous job.  It is guys like this that make landowners so leery of the honest logger.
He was referred to me by a very good friend who met him at the local VFW and felt he was an honest logger.We had a handshake agreement, which is the way things are often done in this rural community. I am very much in love with this little piece
of land I own and plan to pass it on to my son.  I can only say that right now I feel like I've been raped.  I feel like taking the law into my own hands, but know that is not the way to go.  If anyone has any further tips on legal procedures, let me know.  I plan to call a detective friend of mine to see if I can just have him arrested.   Probably not, but I would like to make it so difficult for him that he will never do this to a trusting landowner again.  Paul

[trouter]

Whatever you do dont give up, drive the guy crazy so that he pays you just to get you off his back.  We had a experience some what like this years ago at our mill, a logger was bringing in logs that were not holding out right for us. Since we do not have scales at the mill we could not be sure what was going on so one day he brought in a load, we got a local guy to haul it to a scale and found out he was screwing us on weight, next time he came in we took the slip and the truck still loaded to the scales.  That was the last time we ever saw him, sad part is we never got our money out of him, so there is a nice tractor running around that should have our name on it instead of his.

[Kirk_Allen]

If you dont hear from him by Friday I would suggest a trip to the county court house to have a sit down discussion with the prosecuter.  Depending on their work load they may jump on the case and and take criminal action OR they more than likely will tell you what you have is a breach of contract case, which is a civil matter.  With what little information I have it appears someone stole your timber while you watched.  Thats not all bad!  Your the witness to all those involved in the theft.  If the prosecuter has had other complaints in the past that he thought were civil issues, another case with the same issue may just push him to take action.  The key is going to identify a crinimal law that was broken.  If you can somehow identify this persons intent, which is tough, it would make things easier for the prosectuion.  In some cases, it pays for you to do ALL the legal research and have it ready for the prosecuter.  If they have to research stuff they tend to push things on the back burner or push you to a civil court.

They like High Profile in most cases.  Turn this into a High Profile Political Environmental issue and you may turn his head so that he will run with it.

Breach of contract cases are quite common and they dont have to be on paper.  We had a case several years ago that involved an old parnter who imbezzled over $500,000.00 from our company.  He had even illegaly sold some of our stock and manipulated the books.  We had a clear case of securities fraud at a minimum but the Feds told us since the dollar figure was under 1,000,000 dollars they recomended we take civil action.  Needless to say I lost a lot of faith in our criminal justice system after that.  We did persue civil action and won but at a cost to us financialy and the only thing we gained was the recovery of this persons stock.  

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well.........
two thoughts,
 in my area (I am registered logger/buyer) what you describe IS the norm, most loggers ARE NOT good guys and it hurts my buisiness some,

he may just be off slashing up some more logs and be giving no thought to your "Little DEAl", in other words it is way bigger deal to you than him , and he may be plannig to pay you................

In Illinois we have special laws governing situations like yours, and they are felony violations, timber theft....Kirk gives good advise and I probably would do that as well as , first calling DNR and tracking down the criminal unit and get thier input and get them shaking his tree,  he can only log and sell with thier permission....there is the key, it is primarily in rhier juristriction

I would make sure he knew your intentions before starting all out war....if you wanna see your money, in civil cases the winning may only mean you are usually going to get  nothing , and cause him to do it over under a new name in the next county......

[victorytea]

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the support in this surprisingly stressful time in my life.  I'm almost 60 and my wife's pregnant- on top of everything else going on.  I talked to my detective friend who, unfortunately, works in a different county and he said he would talk to his DA to determine what law has been broken.  He thinks there may be a felony supported by a fairly new law to protect the homeowner.  He gave me much the same advice that I have gotten on this forum.  Given that he hunts out here, he is willing to do some of the "legwork" for me.  I still have not heard from "Shane" the logger but I had my pictures developed today and they came out fine.  I did call the VFW to speak to Shane but he hadn't arrived yet.  I left my work number but again- no call.   I would like to ask Buzz-Sawyer- what exactly is the DNR?  I agree totally with the idea of letting him know my intent,i.e. legal action before I do anything and would prefer (by far) just to "share" the profit from the logs harvested.  Thanks again guys.      Paul  

[Buzz-sawyer]

Department of Natural Resources

[Buzz-sawyer]

Department of Natural Resources
Go to NY state site and search for logging and get some info
Don

[Brian_Bailey]

I would get in touch with the NYS Dept. of Enviro. Conservation.

Here's a link   http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/protection/index.html

Good Luck

[victorytea]

Thanks for the link Brian.  I found article 155 of the State Penal Law signed by Gov. Pataki in 1997.  I printed the page and will take it to the DA if need be. I really hope this guy shows up on Friday.

[Buzz-sawyer]

Trouble is that thr D.A  may say since you had a verbal cotract that , 155 Does not apply....Unless they go with the intent to defraud and theft by deception,.....larceny as you pointed out....
(Timber theft can be prosecuted as a felony, depending upon the amount of timber stolen. Article 155 of the State Penal Law classifies the theft of property with a value exceeding $1,000 as grand larceny, fourth degree, a Class E felony punishable by up to four years in jail and a fine of up to $5,000, or double the gain from the commission of the crime.

Other charges commonly filed against timber thieves include criminal mischief, third degree, also a Class E felony, and criminal trespass, a Class B misdemeanor punishable by a maximum fine of $500 and up to three months in jail. )


You can call DEC law enforcement at 1-800-TIPP-DEC.

 DEC's Bureau of Environmental Conservation Investigations

[victorytea]

HE PAID! It's over- the logger called me at work today from my buddies place. Said he called me but I was never home, he was a digit off in his dialing. Although I am unhappy with the job, I am going to put this all in the past and move on. He gave my friend the money and it is within  the range he quoted me-also the paperwork.  My good friend and I cut firewood every Friday and will begin the cleanup then.  I wish to thank all of you guys for the wonderful support- I have learned so much from you and will be far more diligent and thorough in the future. Thanks for sticking with me and not just writing me off as a naive idiot.  One thing that comforted me throughout this ordeal was the fact that there were intelligent, sympathetic, experienced men willing to help me( a complete stranger)- out.  My hat is off to all who participated.
Now I have to get over to the "Raising a Child When you're too Old" forum.    High Regards
                       Paul

[Buzz-sawyer]

Hey , nothin says you cant still check in with us.............. 8) 8) 8)

[OneWithWood]

Paul,
Methinks you could get a lot of help raising that child right here.  Raising a child will prevent many old age symptons I am told - though I was never brave enough to try it :D a bunch of our members have tons of experience in that regard.

[bitternut]

Well victorytea I have a hunch that maybe the guy paid up because of New Yorks new timber theft law. According to an article in the latest issue of The New York Forest Owner a Steuben County ordered a woodland owner  to make restitution of $42,561.96 to his neighbor for timber theft. The approximate 173 trees had a fair market stumpage value of $14,187.32. Apparently the new law has some big teeth in it.

I would suggest that if you want to sell timber in the future you have a forester mark and conduct the sale. You might also consider becoming a member of NYFOA. They are a big help to forest owners.

[SwampDonkey]

VictoryTea:

First off, I just want to make clear I'm completely nuetral on this and no flaming please. ;)

I know from your posts that you were dissatisfied with the job the contractor did. I think the main reason he worked a bit too fast was the size of the job. To be quite honest it would be very difficult to do a small job without the contractor going behind. A small job to me is under 10 acres of woodland. Anyone locally I've ever talked with has always said that they go behind going to small job sites for group selection or spacing work. If its a clear cut, then they will profit. Some small job sites include tree removal around edges of fields or islands of wood in fields that grew up around rock piles. Just alot of travel and hardly enough of one species to separate out,  such as spruce from poplar. I know its hard for the landowner sometimes to get small jobs done, but if you were in good with a neighbor with a winch equiped tractor, and time to do it yourself, you'de get greater satisfaction and there would be no urgency to get the job done quick and move on. If you need fast cash then this equipment isn't going to provide it. ;) You'de also learn quick why professional contractors seem to move a bit quick on these sites. My cousin cut a little bit of diseased hardwood and poplar from his sugar bush with a winch and tractor and he also had a wake up call, when he realized the production needed to make aliving and pay expenses. In his case the wood was recovered for firewood for his father and himself. He managed to recover about 3000 feet of logs from the butts of a few trees. Personally, I think the guy provided a favor and I wouldn't be in a hurry to point fingers and accuse the man of wood theft. Is the fellow a local contractor? If so he's trying to make a living, and although we would like our money yesterday, I think a little patients is in order. As you've learned through this experience a work contract would put you a little more at ease, but 2 weeks isn't that long. If your in dire straights, it seems like an eternity. ;)

Ok, I'm done. ;D

cheers

[Buzz-sawyer]

Well stated, and I agree the whole situation is completelydifferent with a different perspective............I have been on both sides of this, the waiter, and the contractor........being falsely accused of ripping off........when I took the job as a favor in the first place..........while waiting though the mind starts to playt tricks on us!!!

[victorytea]

You guys are right on.  I'm so emotionally attached to my land, I can honestly say, my thinking was not quite right.  I would like to believe, however, that I never absolutely accused him of theft but rather was preparing for the possibility.  Now I'll reread the posts and see if that ( is even) correct.   Paul

[Oldtimer]

I am with swampdonkey.

36 basswood trees? For 1000-1500 bucks to you? He was in a hurry so he wouldn't lose money. I am surprised you made that much on 36 basswoods and a few Hard maples. The barking of the leave trees is regretable, but hard to avoid. Hopefully, he picked less valuable (pulp) trees to bump.

[Jeff]

Why surprise at that figure? If there were any hard maple veneer in the equation there is a possibility to get that much just from a couple 3 or 4 trees.  Barking up trees certainly is avoidable if care is taken and if unavoidable the trees need to be evaluated

[Oldtimer]

Must be veneer Maple and big Basswood I guess. But here, Basswood is rarely found bigger than 12" dbh, and Veneer Hard maple is scarce as hens teeth. I estimated in my head from what I would see for that number of trees here. Actually, -here- I'd consider it a general tree job and want the wood for the job. 40 trees isn't logging. Being required to cut the wood short to avoid rubbing leave trees would be great, but I'd have to be realistic - some trees will get rubbed. Gotta break eggs to make a cake. This is exactly the kind of job I try to avoid unless they agree to my terms with no reservations.

[victorytea]

Looking at the receipt from the mill he took the logs to- there was a total of 8037'.  7 maples,2 hickorys and 3 ash trees- the rest basswood.  The basswood here in NY grows much bigger than 12", I believe all he took were well over 20". My buddy finally met up with this guy at a local bar, told him how angy I was and convinced him to come to his house  (where he had my work #) and give me a call.  I still don't know what his intentions were.  He said he tried to call me but I was never home- then volunteered the # he was calling and it was a convenient 1 digit off.  How could he be one digit off when I was calling every day and leaving my phone #.  I took my work # and home # to his house and left it.  He didn't have any problem dialing my # when he called about the job.  My wife said, many times, that I'm too trusting- well, no more.  I know loggers are a different breed but when I give a man enough trust to come on my property and cut trees decades, maybe a century old, he could ,at least, honor his word by being there when he said he will be there.  I have 22 pictures of scraped, mostly maturing trees.  At the landing there were two 8' high blue spruce and a 18' larch tree way off to the side.  I asked to  please not bugger these up and he said not to worry.  Next day I noted one spruce uprooted, one scraped and the larch knocked to about 8' in height.  The stream that they crossed with the skidder became dammed up- he said " I'll push that out" (with the skidder)- didn't happen. My buddy and I will clean up the mess and life is too short to dwell on this.  I wish I had done what swampdonkey (I believe) said and cut the logs myself with the aid of a big tractor.  I,m sure that would have been a much more positive learning experience.  Anyways, I will put some of the money back into the land (seedlings) and the rest will go to a new floor for the expected young 'un to crawl on.  Life is still good and I want to thank you guys again for your valuable opinions and advise.        Paul

[SwampDonkey]

You folks sure have some nice big hardwood down your way. I've seen lotsa nice stands of wood through Virginia, NC, GA and TN. I walk in those stands and see $$ signs. I was in parks most the time, but a couple of private woodlots too. I'de have to agree that your average diameters down there on hardwood are bigger than up this way. In old growth hardwood up here that have a few 20 + inch dbh maple and yellow birch, they are hollow inside 90 % of the time. I was just out on the weekend to a private woodlot owned by a big forest company up here and all the big sugar maple and yellow birch had either red belted conk growing out the side or deep crevases in the wood that you could slip your hand inside. In other words, natural culverts. The area we were in was on a big hill which was an overlook that you could see a small lake and hills that were  near my home (35 miles away.) If we don't capture hardwood before its 20 inches in dbh its pulpwood or culls. I hate to make that generality but I've been on alot of woodlots and crown lands. Well mangaed and healthy hardwood up here average about 8-10 inches but the range is 4 inches to 22 inches, generally.

Just wanted to mention that we also have basswood up here and it mostly grows of very moist loamy soils, so there is usually water near-by. Again your tree sizes are well above average for my area. We get the odd 20 or 24 inch tree but they average 8 or 10 inches. Probably because its an uncommon tree here and most has been pulped over the last 30 years and before that it would be used in muldings or for fall stovewood. There is really no significant market for it except a few small wood working shops or craftshops that have very little demand for it. In other words if I had a full load of it, it probably would spoil before it got marketed.

8000 feet for your trees was a full load wasn't it? That's worth nearly $3000 CDN for lower grades and up to $6500 for #1. Mid grade veneer would fetch nearly $10,000 CDN, smaller Veneer is worth about the same as #1 sawlogs if I remember correctly, but they will take shorter pieces (down to 4'4"). Basswood wouldn't be veneer.

Have a look here at some of our local market prices for comparisons. $1 USD = $1.36 CDN

http://www.cvwpa.ca

Columbia Forest Products and Calley and Currie , both in Maine, buy most our Veneer and they hire the trucking.

Its unfortunate about the tree damage on your woodlot and the mess in the creak, but again I'll reiterate that the size of the job will have a big impact on the results. This guy may not specialize in group selection or thinning operations either. As the old saying goes, 'Haste lays to waste'. ;)

cheers

[Ron Scott]

The size of the stand shouldn't make any difference as to the care and quality job given by the logger in his operation. Best management practices should "always" be used.

There's no excuse for slash and debris left in a stream and excessive damage to the residual trees.

I agree, get the right logger for the job and know before hand if they plan to "short wood" or "tree length". The area should be planned accordingly for the best results.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes I agree with Ron , that Best Management Practices should be adhered to when logging. Running skidders through creeks is forbidden with the 'Clean Water Act', or similar legislation in different states, and no machine is allowed within 50 feet of a stream bank and even then there is a 100 foot buffer that you can only take 30 % of the basal area from. Also, one needs a permit to work near watercourses. The NB federation of woodlot owners has produced a information binder and a course on 'Best Management Practices'. But, sadly very few big contractors ever attend. What I observed was the weekend cutter or woodlot owner attending. I know it is hard to entice some folks in for such a course. Some are busy, some don't care and some may not even know about it. There hasn't been all that great cummunications from the local assocation and their Newsletter is always late with the news or doesn't get out on a regular basis. Not all Associations are lacking however and they put on good courses. Here it is half way through the year and I only recieved one newsletter which was 6 months behind in its info, when I should have 3 by now. : It used to be bi-monthly. I will add that I've observed some pretty messy work from woodlot owners too. Just two weeks ago I cruised a woodlot and the guy that owns it has been running his machines through the creeks and falling the slash and tops onto the creek. What a jungle. Sadly, this owner was nearly killed this spring when a logded tree gave way and struck another cut piece, which in turn threw the guy 40 feet from where he was standing. He was also working in the creek again. :