Intro and questions

[Cedar Eater]

Hello, this is my first post in this forum.  :D  I'm a woodland owner in Michigan and I cut some cedar each winter while I try to improve the deer hunting on my land. This past year, I've also harvested some hardwood and balsam blowdowns and had them milled into onebys for my future needs. It's just me, my small tractor, my chainsaw, and a beatup old pickup with an equally beatup single-axle trailer but I would like to keep cutting my own. I'm not trying to make a living, I just want to make a little spending money and be a good steward. I think I should get a forest management plan and also, I would like some advice on ways to market what I cut. So I have some questions and would appreciate your patience.

First, a clarification. I market my cedar by cord, but I see lots of references to Mbf. I assume this means thousand board feet and that million board feet would be MMbf. If someone knowledgeable could confirm or correct that, I would be grateful.

When I lived in Virginia, I got a Forest Management Plan (FMP) from a county forester. Does Michigan do this through MSU extension offices or DNR or what?

It seems very few mills near me will accept small loads (1-2 cords) and it would take me a long time to cut big loads. I can only do about 10 cords per winter. Is it common for loggers or truckers to buy small loads and combine them to take to the mills? Any suggestions on how I can find buyers for tamarack, balsam fir and maple logs? There's a mill near me that will take almost anything, but they'll only pay $55/cd. (they make pallets).

Thanks in advance for your help.

[DanG]

Hi, C-E, and welcome!

Yup, a management plan would be the way to go. This forum is eaten up with Michigan foresters, so you shouldn't have a problem lining one up.
You're right about the mbf, mmbf thing. Thousand and million, respectively.
Why not buy a small sawmill, and cut up that stuff, yourself? You'd triple your money, and your fun, too. :D

[Tom]

Welcome to the forum, Cedar Eater.  DanG is right about the forestry management plan.  These guys go to school to learn the various ways of taking care of a forest to help you obtain the environment you want.  Their envolvement is well worth the continued effort.  Don't just bring one in.....bring him back.

There are a few conversations in the history of the forum of members developing a woods for recreation and wildlife as well as for the trees.  Scan back when you have time, you will enjoy it.

Yep, think about the sawmill suggestion.  That's a lot of fun too and provides you with your building materials right off of your own land.  :P

[Jeff]

Cedar Eater, What part of Michigan are you in? I am about 25 miles south of Houghton Lake.  I have sent out a few messages for some of these Michigan Forester types to get out of da woods and answer this post. We also have another member of this forum that cuts and markets cedar from his property. I will give him a buzz and see if he is in the bush or able to answer. That would be the timberbeast.

You might get started by going over to www.mfra.org Michigan forest resource alliance, and ordering all their free brochures, they even pay the postage. If you want to spend 10 bucks they also have a new video called "How to attract wildlife to your property" topics include forest management, food plots, and wetlands management.

I am sure we will get you some good info here, but in the mean time, make yer self at home. Pull up a stool put your feet by the stove and enjoy or tell a story or two...

[Ron Scott]

A good contact in your area for information on  Forest Landowner Stewardship Planning, Timber Harvesting, Marketing, etc, in the Alcona County area is:

Sunrise Forestry Consultants
Don E. Krejcarek, Consulting Forester
223 5th Street
PO Box 16
Harrisville, MI 48740
(517) 724-6165

Feel free to tell Don that I referred you.

[timberbeast]

Greetings,  Cedar Eater!  I figgered at first you were a yooper,  but now I see it's Alcona County,  I could give you some contacts in the U.P.,  but that sure would be a haul for you!  I do pretty much what you do,  and your equipment description fits mine as well,  except I have a sawmill.  If you want to trailer in small quantities of cedar,  try and find a fence company near you.  The one I sell to pays 60.00/cord for 75" posts,  3" and up,  140/cord for 75" bolts,  8-10",  for 100" bolts 7" and up,  170/cord.  9'3" bolts 7" and up,  200/cord.  Makes it worthwhile to limb all the way to the top!  They'll take one post,  or 1000 cords,  but will only pick up 20-cord lots within 50 miles.  Lesser quantities you have to deliver.  Also will buy brush by the ton around Christmas time,  Cedar,  Spruce and Balsam.  
I've found a few private sawlog buyers who have gone as high as 400/cord for PERFECT Cedar,  10" and up,  check the ads in all the local papers.  You'll profit more by sawing into lumber,  I usually get $750/Mbf for green Cedar.
I also agree with hiring a forester for your management needs,  although I am not a firm believer in "food plots".  
I am lucky enough that most of my acreage is Cedar swamp,  and I'm not sure if I could wipe it out if I tried,  with the equipment that I own,  but you have to be careful,  if you clear out a parcel of Cedar completely,  it will rarely come back.
Can't help you out much on the hardwood,  as I mill all that I cut.  I have sold a few veneer logs,  but can't remember where,  I believe it was someplace around Ishpeming.  Pulp seems to be around 55/cord,  last I sold,  and I do cut it,  because I cut the "bad stuff" as well as the "good",  and pile it up until I get around 10 cords.  I think the last I paid for hauling was 9 bucks a cord.  There are some small places who take pulp by the pickup load,  but I don't know about your area.  Try and make some connections with pro loggers in your area.  They can be pretty tight-lipped about where they sell,  but you won't find many guys in the business who aren't nice.  If you go with a forester,  he will provide a wealth of answers on who is buying what in your area,  and whether they pick up roadside,  or if you have to deliver,  etc.
Hope this helps some...I'm sure if you stick around here,  you'll learn a lot from guys who know much more than I do!

P.S.  You really eat that stuff??  Hell,  I've found it in my socks,  my shorts,  my hair,  my boots,  uh.....just about everywhere........works better than Mennen Speed Stick!!

[Cedar Eater]

Wow, those were quick responses.

First, regarding buying a sawmill. They cost some bucks and it probably wouldn't get enough use to pay for itself. If it doesn't pay for itself, I can't afford it. I'm also concerned about marketing the lumber once it is cut. I can call a portable sawmiller when I have enough logs, but finding buyers for logs or lumber is my biggest problem.

I live about 10 miles south of Hubbard Lake in Alcona County. For those not familiar with the NE corner of the LP, that's about 35 mi. SSW of Alpena. I've checked out mfra.org and ordered their brochures.

Thanks Ron Scott for the forester referral, but I'm hoping to get some state or county funded expert assistance before calling in a pro. I figure some of my tax dollars should come back to me. If corn farmers can get a visit from a county agent, then I think tree farmers deserve the same. As I understand it, forestry consultants want a percentage of the sale and since I want to cut my own, I doubt they'll find me very interesting. If I'm wrong about that, please, let me know. I recognize the value of foresters, but I can't afford to adopt any.

[Cedar Eater]

Hey timberbeast, it looks like my first reply was being written while you posted yours. I didn't mean to leave you out.

I sell my cedar to a local fence company, but they're fussy. They only buy three cuts. 100" posts (3.5"@ small end) go for $90/cd. 75" logs (6.5"@se) go for $130/cd. 100" logs (9"@se) go for $200/cd. They quit buying in March last year and they probably will again this year.

Do you cut cedar through the summer or only in winter? I cut some last summer while road building, but that was miserable work.

What are bolts? Is that just another word for logs? The local cedar mill calls them logs or posts.

I think I do a reasonable job of managing my cedar swamp, but I have some higher ground with oaks, maples and aspens (pople) that I need expert advice on. I think I have markets for 86" oak and maple logs, but they weigh so much that I can't transport them. I also need markets for small loads of tamarack, balsam fir and an occasional pine. Ever since Homer D. Poe came to the area, the buyers for construction lumber have given up. Nobody can compete with the biggies.

I have some other questions regarding milled lumber, but I'll ask those on the milling board.

Thanks for your reply.

[Ron Scott]

The Conservation District Foresters and the Cost Share Programs are really hurting since the Governor cut their funding through the Michigan DNR rthis year. Most offices don't have a service forester for private landowners anymore. Your tax $$$ are being used elsewhere.

A bolt is a short piece of pulpwood or a short log.

[Cedar Eater]

Thanks again Ron.

Can you explain the economics of working with a consulting forester? Do they all work percentage or do some of them consult on a fee-for-service basis? In other words, if I wanted a forester to explain what needed to be done in certain sections of my property and then possibly mark specific trees for me to cut, what would be the going rate for that kind of service? and would I even be able to find a forester who would work on that basis?

The reason I'm getting into the nitty gritty is that I had a bad experience with a forester who seemed like all he was interested in was bringing in a logger to harvest all the biggest trees so he could maximize his percentage. I can understand his motivation, but I want to enjoy living here for many years. My concerns about preserving some acorn bearing oaks for deer and turkeys meant nothing to him.  >:( When he started pushing a lump sum concept, I limited the area I would let him work in to my nastiest swampiest tamaracks and cedars. He called back two weeks later and said he didn't want the job.  ;D

I got much better cooperation from a county forester in Virginia. He produced a mostly generic but reasonably specific plan that incorporated both my hunting and my timber harvest goals.

I've scheduled a "property walk" with the local CD forester and she said she will probably give me a list of local foresters who can get me a "Forest Stewardship Plan". I'm hopeful that this will work out and id she refers me to the guy you referred me to, then he'll be my first call off that list. If I get a hard sell for a logging contract from just one off that list, I'll throw it in the trash and run the risk of doing the wrong thing to my hardwoods. :( I'd probably keep asking questions around here to minimize that damage, but better that than being unhappy with my little paradise.

[Jeff]

cedar keep asking those questions till you are satisfied that the answer you get is the right one. This is one of the reasons I created the forum and the Timber Buyers Network. I saw way to many unhappy landowners over the years, and in most cases I think the landowner and the industry would have been better off if the landowner had educated themselves a little on what they wanted to do. You are the perfect example of what some knowledge can do. You will be the better for it.
 
But Imagine if you knew nothing and simply hired someone on the faith that they were going to do the right thing. Theres a chance that nothing right would happen.

For every bad forester or logger out there, there are 100 good consciencious ones out there trying to combat the reputation given by that one. If we have educated landowners, they will be able to do something we have never been able to do as an industry. Put that bad one out of business.

[Tillaway]

The going rate for consulting Foresters out here is about $50 to $65 hour.  They should prefer to work on an hourly, run and hide from the ones that will market the logs for you on a percentage.  A good company should have a Forester to run the show and several techs to mark trees and layout harvest boundaries and basically do all the ground work.

[Frank_Pender]

Geee fellas and gals, I reckon I have been cheating myself for the last 8 or 9 years. I went through a whole year of special training through Oregon State University Dept. of Forestry Extension and updated trainings since and still do not charge for my services after I donated the required return hours for the training.  I guess I enjoy helping people so much I forgot to charge anything at all.  There were 22 of us in the first class that graduated as Master Woodland Managers.  It has been about ten years now and the Univ. is finally getting around to training another group of folks, men and women and some couples.  They even have a Sister from an convent near Silverton, not very far from the state capital.  I might have to adjust my fee, if this is the going rate. I will just have them donate a small sum to the Shriner's Hospital in Portland.

[Ron Wenrich]

Tillaway

On timber sales, most consultants charge a percentage fee.  Here in PA, most guys are charging 15%.  That often ends up being more than the logging expenses.  

For a job like is being discribed, an hourly fee or a $/Mbf or cord figure could also be used.  I've done them both ways.

[Jeff]

Ron, don't you think working on %s could be an enticement for a forester that is not up to this forums standards, to high grade a stand so as to up his pay day? I would think that paying a forester by the hour would be more equitable. But I guess, you could take it the other way and he could take 7days to draw up a plan on an acre.

I think what it boils down to is, that the landowner needs to be educated enough to know what he wants and be able to choose the right guy to show him how to get there. Hopefully what he wants is not just instant cash.

[Bud Man]

Education is expensive any way you look at it --pay someone for his efforts or put out an effort in time to self-educate on results desired - or most expensive, stumble forward unknowlingly and incur disatrous results.  I like paying in the form of researching difinitive answers to my own desired results,and  results are sweeter and more rewarding as well !!

[Jeff]

Impressive Bud man not a single = in that post.  ;)

[Bud Man]

T=H=A=N=K'=S== I'm trying ==Harder

[Jeff]

[size=42] :D= = = :D[/size]

[Tillaway]

Ron

You can hardly get a Forester to touch any harvest plan out Californy way on a percentage.  You have no idea what the various state agencies will throw at you.  You might have to change the plan two or three times to get it accepted.

The percentage pay works better in Oregon, but there is too much temptation to favor certain buyers over the others.  Also there is the program that Frank is involved with.  These folks give good advice and guide folks down the right path and it is free.  You got to love Oregon. ;D 8)

[Ron Wenrich]

Jeff

That's exactly what is happening.  Slash for cash.  I see way too many 14-16" trees that are cut just because they are the right specie.  Few junk trees are making it into the yard.

When I started out in consulting work, we worked strictly on percentage.  Then, we started to do the figuring on how much it was costing us to do the work.  We were making big bucks on high value stands, and losing money on low value stands.  In effect, the owners of good timber were subsidizing the owners of poor timber for our services.

We had a couple of options.  We could charge higher percentages for low value timber or just not take the job.  Or, we could mark at a $/Mbf figure, and sell at a very low % rate.  We seperated our job into marking and marketing.  If the landowner wanted to market the timber, we just lost out on a little commission.  It really smoothed things out for the landowner.

Tillaway

Here in PA, we don't even have registration for foresters let alone cutting plans or state agencies to contact.  The only thing that has to be done is a soil erosion and sedimentation plan.  Those are pretty much cookie cutter documents.

Anyone can, and does, call themselves a forester.  We had one timber buyer, with an 8th grade education, calling himself a forester.  He knew logging, and milling, but was short on the management end.  

[Cedar Eater]

You guys are scaring me now

Jeff B said:
I think what it boils down to is, that the landowner needs to be educated enough to know what he wants and be able to choose the right guy to show him how to get there. Hopefully what he wants is not just instant cash.

My twin goals are to maximize the long term timber harvest potential of the hardwood area of my property and to always have some oaks old enough to be dropping acorns for my bambicidal tendencies. If these goals conflict, I need to know that so I can make an informed decision. It sounds like you're saying that I need to return to my alma mater (MSU '81) for a forestry degree so I can tell whether a forester is honest. That's obviously not gonna happen. That's why I want my society to provide a paid expert to give me a plan and while they're at it, to throw in some assistance with marking, marketing and negotiating the labyrinthe of laws and government programs. Is that too much to ask?  ;D Well yes, it probably is, but maybe if I pester them enough they'll give me three outa four.  :D

I'm getting the impression that federal or state oversight of foresters is a controversial topic. I don't know if Michigan requires certification, licensing, mimimum education or a chainsaw bar exam of foresters who provide Foresty Stewardship Plans, but when a company advertises on TV that they'll get us the most for our timber, I feel like I might be dealing with the equivalent of ambulence chasers.

How about a fixed price per acre (with minimums) for plans and marking? How about an hourly rate for consulting about marketability and for getting permits and assistance with cost-sharing applications? Then maybe a percentage rate for contracts and logger oversight? Quality of the forest only comes into play with the last of those. It seems to me that if forestry is a consultant profession, it should be like other consultant professions. Am I out of line here?

[Bud Man]

Looks like you know some of the right questions to ask and are smart enough to know the BS when you hear it. Keep asking till you like what you hear.  Most are like lawyers , they'll give you the first consultation free and their fees to follow.  Most will pay for themselves with their knowledge real quick.   Last free lunch I got came with a little indigestion thrown in for free !!   Good Luck !!

[Jeff]

My Statements were not to make you think that most foresters will turn you the wrong way, because most won't. What I am saying was, learn enough to recognize the one that might. Pick a forester like you would a baby sitter.

Talk to people, get recommendations and referals.

[swampwhiteoak]

CedarEater,

Doesn't sound to me like your goals conflict, and any good management plan could include both.

You've got to understand that most landowners don't even think about foresters or forest management until a logger knocks on their door or they need some cash and want to sell some trees.  So naturally many consultants are going to market themselves in terms of selling timber and getting the landowner more money.

If all you're looking for is a management plan and some advice, I think an hourly or per/acre rate is more appropriate.

Tillaway,

After reading some of Kalifornia's regulations I can see why no one wants to work solely on commission out there.  You could get yourself in a hole real fast.