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Author Topic: timber frame without tenon and mortise  (Read 6090 times)

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Offline kimouette

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timber frame without tenon and mortise
« on: July 08, 2015, 03:02:14 PM »
Hi,
I am planning my timber frame and i was wondering if i could skip the use of tenon and mortise. I would make the housings and screw all the joints. My only concern is about the hold of the screws when the wood twists. Has anyone tried this method for a whole house frame?

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2015, 04:06:08 PM »
If you have building codes and permits, I don't think that will fly.  At a minimum, you will need some steel brackets.  This variant of construction is referred to as Post and Beam.  Google that.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline kimouette

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2015, 04:21:57 PM »
Ok thx,
but Post and Beam on google looks like timber frame. And i am not trying to change the plans i already have. I'm just trying to find the easiest way for the joints(buy or not the chain mortiser and save or not a lot of time). So what i'm asking is if anybody did try this method bolts or long screws instead of steel brakets in place of a tenon and mortise for a whole project.

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2015, 04:46:22 PM »
The answer would be best given by an engineer.

Each joint/connection would have to be reviewed for stress and number of screws and placement would be critical.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Offline kimouette

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2015, 05:00:22 PM »
NOOO :( :( :(
Not the enginneer. He was supposed to give me shop drawings but instead left me with half the details and no shop drawings. Had to stop paying him but not complaint on his part. I guess he likes fast projects with no fuss. So i guess ill just go ahead and buy the mortiser. It will cost less than another enginner checkup.

Offline beenthere

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2015, 07:45:43 PM »
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Click on your forum name and your profile will come up, and then you can put your location in there. It will help with answering your dilemma. Things are different in different country's and within a country.
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline kimouette

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2015, 09:41:30 PM »
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

Click on your forum name and your profile will come up, and then you can put your location in there. It will help with answering your dilemma. Things are different in different country's and within a country.
Ok done

Offline Carpenter

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2015, 01:21:10 AM »
     Yes, it can be done sure, (I'm not saying that you should do a timber frame house without mortice and tenon joints, I'm just saying that it can be done.)  Several years ago as a young carpenter I had a prospective customer who wanted a timber framed house.  I had never built a timber framed house but, I knew if we got the frame that I could do the rest.  I happened to see an ad in a news paper for a company that among other things included timber framing and they were not far from me.  So, I set up a meeting.  As it turned out the guy did do some very interesting projects with timbers, mostly with dug fir, and he sort of specializes in bridges, although he has done several commercial buildings and houses.  I showed him the preliminary plans and he asked "are these through joints?"  I told him that they were traditional mortice and tenons.  He said that they were a pain in the neck and that most of the time they used joinery like you were suggesting, just a housed joint with lags.  He also added that the plywood sheeting would give some bracing effect and help hold the building together.  Which is true for a stick framed house, and I'm sure that you would get some bracing effect with a timber frame as well, but a timber frame is supposed to be a free standing frame.  His projects were approved by an engineer and he showed me a chart that he has to follow for the bridges to prove it, some of these are vehicle bridges and require state approval by an engineer.  So, I am saying that it is possible to just use metal fasteners.  And, I'm not saying that he just used lag bolts either, there are several metal fastener systems available and some are hidden, or structurally approved and made to look like mortice and tenon joinery.  In certain cases a metal fastening system may even be superior.  I say that because of a Timber framers guild project that I worked on were there were some metal fasteners in the truss assembly that were in tension, I think they were made by timberlock, I was told that they had to use those fasteners to meet the engineers approval. 
     Personally, I prefer to use traditional joinery where possible.  The wood all expands and contracts together, in a perfect world and the joints stay tight.  However, with metal joinery the wood expands and contracts due to moisture and the metal expands and contracts due to heat, so I can see how those joints may work loose through the years.  I don't know that they would fail in our live times though.  But, I like to think that my buildings at least have the potential to last 1,000 years. 

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2015, 11:29:24 AM »
<<snip>>
But, I like to think that my buildings at least have the potential to last 1,000 years.
I'm shooting for 500 years ;)
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Brian_Weekley

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2015, 12:24:15 PM »
Traditional timber frames have been built with mortise and tenon joinery for many hundreds of years.  They are time-tested and have been built that way for a reason.  My thought is that if something is worth doing, it’s worth doing right.  There is just something beautiful about traditional methods of construction.

There are several quotes that could be taken from the commencement speech referenced below, but I particularly like this one:

“There are philosophical goods that follow from building traditionally, because when you fashion iron or carve stone, lay a foundation or plaster a wall, erect a timber frame or square up an opening, you have no time for and no interest in modern philosophy.  Traditional builders instead naturally incline to Aristotelian metaphysical realism, and disincline to subjectivist notions of truth and beauty, which is the ideology of people unacquainted with craftsmanship and its full implications.  You, however, know that matter is real; you know and respect its properties; you know what good work is.  You know something true about the world.”

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2010/06/1358/

e aho laula

Offline timberwrestler

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2015, 11:00:30 AM »
Yes, you can absolutely do it, but you'll need an engineer.  What you really need though is an engineer that is familiar with timber framing.  Google the Timber Frame Engineering Council, and you should be able to find someone licensed near you.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2015, 10:30:06 PM »
What you have to understand is that the joints in a timberframe are under varying stress conditions - shear stress, bending stress.  Tension, compression, and torsion.  The engineers job is to calculate the stresses in each joint, and verify whether the proposed timber size, tenon size, shear area created by number of pegs, etc will handle the stresses with a margin of safety.  You have to do the same thing for bolted post and beam connections or any other fastening method.  If you were not happy with the engineer you were working with, find someone else. There aren't many engineers with the proper timber frame experience.   Fire Tower Engineered Timber is one that is.

The thinking that removing mortise and tenon joinery in favor of post and beam bolt and plate connections, or any other joinery method, is largely a false one.  Fabrication of the post and beam connection plates, locating them and laying out bolt holes and and connection details will take you as long as doing mortise and tenon.  To the novice it's often perceived as easier to do post and beam or another connection mechanism, but it's not.  I think that is stems from intimidation and lack of experience in cutting mortise and tenon joinery.  Once you got comfortable with layout and cutting, it's not intimidating.  Take a week-long timberframe workshop will go a long way to assuaging  your apprehension.
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Offline pep

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2015, 07:05:03 AM »
Check out Timberlinx
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Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2015, 09:58:54 PM »
Check out Timberlinx

That is the way to go, when you don't want to do mortise and tenons. Very strong and well engineered.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Offline venice

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2015, 08:54:58 PM »
re: Timberlinx

Looks like IKEA...  ;D

They claim it is stronger than mortise and tennon. How can this be with forces contributed to a smaller area? Is there any scientific proof? I did not look into the technical details yet. Just a thougt.

venice

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2015, 11:12:41 PM »
The engineering council of the timber framers guild has been doing some "joint busting" tests at just about every conference for years. Some of these test have been on "timberlinx" connections.
I don't know if they have printed up any specific reviews of these connectors, but I have been present and seen these connectors after the "wood failed" not the connector as a result of the joint busting test.
I would trust these connectors without question.

Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
Woodmizer 1994 LT30HDG24 with 6' Bed Extension

Offline venice

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2016, 03:03:01 PM »
A very belated Thank you Jim. I read your post before and thought i replied to it. Apparently i did not.

Thank you. venice

Offline bigshow

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2016, 08:30:19 AM »

The thinking that removing mortise and tenon joinery in favor of post and beam bolt and plate connections, or any other joinery method, is largely a false one.  Fabrication of the post and beam connection plates, locating them and laying out bolt holes and and connection details will take you as long as doing mortise and tenon.

Wow, Yes.  Imagine doing that on out of square timber too...
I never try anything, I just do it.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 05:30:24 PM »
 Waking up this thread for a question:

The line just quoted looks like a word is missing.  Perhaps he meant "The thinking that it's cheaper..."?

I think some folks who are good at things like joinery think that anyone can acquire that skill. I used to do a pretty good job with tax returns & counseling  as a CPA, but I don't delude myself into thinking that all someone has to do is take a weeks course to learn how to do it well.

 On the other hand, using Timberlinx and a drill and a jig, I have a feeling  that with the skills I already have for basic carpentry, I can probably get a lot closer  to competency a lot faster.

When somebody quotes me $90 a square foot for a very basic two-story box timber frame, I'll guarantee you there's a lot of skilled labor cost in there.

 I also promise you that I would use Timberlok units wherever the engineer would approve it.   Far cheaper where it fits.

I sure wish it was easier to put in and edit posts on my iPad. This wobbly window stuff is for the birds.   And sometimes voice recognition truly takes longer than putting it in by hand, but that's before you fight AutoCorrect.  Rant mode off.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2017, 05:45:08 PM »
 As an aside, there is a true dearth of acknowledged timber frame engineers around. I looked on the timber framers guild website, and there is no one listed anywhere near us, though I am guessing that from there very paltry list of Virginia TF builder members, that organization has not penetrated the market here.

 If anyone on this list knows of a good engineer for same in the Charlottesville – Richmond area, please chime in.

There are some PEs associated with timber framing builders, but you can imagine their lack of love for do-it-yourselfers.   The builders want that $90 per square foot.  Or more.

The Charlottesville area has plenty of money to spend, so not everybody has the same reaction I do.  We were turned away by at least two designer/architects who would not work with self contracting owners.  On the other hand I have offers of help from at least two class a contractors  both of whom have some timber framing experience, on an hourly basis. It's that hunting thing, and the mother of one of them used to work for us at the restaurant.

Offline Ianab

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2017, 09:16:42 PM »
We were out for dinner last night at a local tavern, and I was having a look at the construction. This is a relatively new building, about 15 years old, and built mostly from local Port Orford Cedar.



Not a traditional timber frame, but big steel gussets and multiple bolts tying everything together. NZ has pretty strict building codes and inspections, (and earthquakes) so I'm certain it's been engineer designed to last.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2017, 11:55:48 PM »
 Most commercial buildings that I see around here and on much of our travels which are at least generically in the "wood frame" style, are done with metal supporting hardware, often similar to what you just illustrated, which I believe is what is usually referred to as post and beam.

Very very few are "true" Timber Frames.

Houses, well they are not always cost/practicality justified in conception & execution.  Lots of true timber frames.

I am NOT passing judgement, just passing along observations.  Good true timber framing looks fantastic.  Using hidden connectors and making them look like hand worked connections does set my faux bells to jingling a bit but I am assuaged a bit by the fact that real wood is still there.

BTW, our restaurant appears to be true Timber Frame (log style), in that the supporting major joints are all huge logs using rustically fitted joinery.  In fact some of it is so rustic and rough looking that I have been tempted to add metal to it, often!

We did find that the smaller round logs making up the walls, which were cut off the land here, were supported & held one on top of the other by what resembles rabbit wire.  Not sure what that's called.

Bunny frame? 🐇🐇🐇🐇🐇🐇🐇

Hey don't laugh, we are on the US National Register of Historic Places.

District Adminstrator, The Honorable Elmer Fudd--?

Look for photos in our shameless commercial Adobe video:

https://spark.adobe.com/video/k7a1h4CkrOP5z

I was happy to see Jim Rogers expressing his positive opinion on the safety and strength of Timberlinx.  We are certainly leaning in that direction along with using things like Timberlok connectors where we can.  Safe and strong that looks good, that's our goal.

Offline Clover

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 01:05:56 PM »
My 2 cents, I'm not a timber framer or have any actual training. I have built quite a few things over the years and do a ton of research before diving in. I also built my own sawmill to cut my own timbers.  I've built a 20' timber frame bent to hold up a roof after an addition on my cottage and used traditional joinery. After destroying a couple drills and my arms (rock hard aged white oak and ash) I swore I'd never do that again. The next structure was a stand alone 16x20 party shack. I used a housed joint with lag bolts and am very glad I did. No one knows the difference as 90 percent is hidden. There is also no one doing this in my area to compare to. Both will be standing long after I'm dead and gone. I'm about to embark on a new project that will be a 16x36 housed timber frame with lag bolts.
My point I guess is you need to use some common sense and already have a knowledge of how to build. I will be using 5x5 infill to support Windows and  wall cladding. This will be supporting and strengthening the structure. Point loads at the main frame will be reduced as it's spread out with the 5x5s.
Sorta stick framed with timbers. Jim Rogers posts here along with numerous books have been a tremendous amount of help. I've never used an engineer or got a permit. If I had to I think I may as well speak Chinese to them because it's an unknown around here.
The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2018, 12:53:29 PM »
MbfVA, I meant for that sentence to read "The thinking that removing mortise and tenon joinery in favor of post and beam bolt and plate connections, or any other joinery method, would be easier, take less time, or less cost, is largely a false one."

Question:  Do you need an engineer, or a designer?  Each serves a different function.  I worked with a designer to first do a floorplan and then a 3d of my house.  That designer also has a lot of timberframe experience and will design the frame for the house as well as all the detailed drawings for the floorplan, and construction of the house outside of the timberframe.  The designer will produce all of the detailed construction drawings.  They typically do not supply detailed frame drawings, or detailed piece drawings for the frame.  It assumes that a competent  timberframe shop will do their own shop drawings and their own detailing of the timber connections.

The engineer will typically analyze the loads for the roof and floors and incorporate that in an analysis of the timberframe design.  Based on the proposed design they find any area of higher stress and may advise increased timber size in a certain place, or the need for special focus on joinery and/or the need for metal  for a particular connection to make it work, or a design change to make it work in wood/traditional methods.

The engineer will also help give the specifications for the foundation design given everything going on with the loads of the structure and the soil tests.  These are all vital functions when investing a large amount of money and mitigating any serious problems.

The engineer you use doesn't need to be located in your state.  The one I mentioned earlier is used for structures all over the country.  Typically engineers don't do design other than what I mentioned.  They don't provide building drawing packages.  Designers/architects do.  There are good architects and not  so good ones.   Same goes for designers.  The designer I've been using has actual timberframe building experience, which is a huge plus.

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Don P

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2018, 04:57:20 PM »
Fleshing that out a bit more. The engineer does need to hold a license in the state the building is going up in, as does any registered design professional. The engineer will/ can/ should check all members and connections not just roof and floor. They can be asked to check the foundation design and/or the entire project as the engineer of record, which is a good idea. For example I had one job where a timberframe company supplied the frame, stamped by their RDP and the precast foundation was designed and stamped by that company. I came to realize I should have had an overall engineer for the entire project. On your own house you can make calls in the field that as a GC I shouldn't have been making. I would have been liable if anything had gone wrong in how the systems played together, well outside of what my insurance would have covered. I'll expand Brad's comment to all design professionals, well, all humans :D, there are good and not so good.

I do agree with Clover as well. Nothing wrong with what you are proposing. Quantify forces and provide resistance. There's a million ways to do that if you have your thinking cap on.

Offline Clover

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2018, 06:49:29 PM »
All good advice and ideas. I've always did my own drawings when building. It could be a small shed or gazebo, garage or cottage. Just so I can get some idea of scale and loading. I did a 3000 square foot deck on my last house with no corners.  Every one wanted to know how I could do it from my head. I would show them all my drawings and they still didn't believe it. Some people just can't grasp that kind of stuff and it's not because of stupidity, They just don't grasp it. Even where my summer home is located building departments can't understand things out of the norm. You can not build a typical frost proof block foundation. The soil is still too compressive at four feet. Only friction pilings work with steel I beams welded to the top. This is done no where else that I'm aware of. Tell the building departments that your doing a friction piling foundation and again I may as well be speaking Chinese.
The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

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