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Author Topic: timber frame without tenon and mortise  (Read 5854 times)

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Offline Ianab

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2017, 09:16:42 PM »
We were out for dinner last night at a local tavern, and I was having a look at the construction. This is a relatively new building, about 15 years old, and built mostly from local Port Orford Cedar.



Not a traditional timber frame, but big steel gussets and multiple bolts tying everything together. NZ has pretty strict building codes and inspections, (and earthquakes) so I'm certain it's been engineer designed to last.
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Offline MbfVA

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2017, 11:55:48 PM »
 Most commercial buildings that I see around here and on much of our travels which are at least generically in the "wood frame" style, are done with metal supporting hardware, often similar to what you just illustrated, which I believe is what is usually referred to as post and beam.

Very very few are "true" Timber Frames.

Houses, well they are not always cost/practicality justified in conception & execution.  Lots of true timber frames.

I am NOT passing judgement, just passing along observations.  Good true timber framing looks fantastic.  Using hidden connectors and making them look like hand worked connections does set my faux bells to jingling a bit but I am assuaged a bit by the fact that real wood is still there.

BTW, our restaurant appears to be true Timber Frame (log style), in that the supporting major joints are all huge logs using rustically fitted joinery.  In fact some of it is so rustic and rough looking that I have been tempted to add metal to it, often!

We did find that the smaller round logs making up the walls, which were cut off the land here, were supported & held one on top of the other by what resembles rabbit wire.  Not sure what that's called.

Bunny frame? 🐇🐇🐇🐇🐇🐇🐇

Hey don't laugh, we are on the US National Register of Historic Places.

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I was happy to see Jim Rogers expressing his positive opinion on the safety and strength of Timberlinx.  We are certainly leaning in that direction along with using things like Timberlok connectors where we can.  Safe and strong that looks good, that's our goal.

Offline Clover

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2018, 01:05:56 PM »
My 2 cents, I'm not a timber framer or have any actual training. I have built quite a few things over the years and do a ton of research before diving in. I also built my own sawmill to cut my own timbers.  I've built a 20' timber frame bent to hold up a roof after an addition on my cottage and used traditional joinery. After destroying a couple drills and my arms (rock hard aged white oak and ash) I swore I'd never do that again. The next structure was a stand alone 16x20 party shack. I used a housed joint with lag bolts and am very glad I did. No one knows the difference as 90 percent is hidden. There is also no one doing this in my area to compare to. Both will be standing long after I'm dead and gone. I'm about to embark on a new project that will be a 16x36 housed timber frame with lag bolts.
My point I guess is you need to use some common sense and already have a knowledge of how to build. I will be using 5x5 infill to support Windows and  wall cladding. This will be supporting and strengthening the structure. Point loads at the main frame will be reduced as it's spread out with the 5x5s.
Sorta stick framed with timbers. Jim Rogers posts here along with numerous books have been a tremendous amount of help. I've never used an engineer or got a permit. If I had to I think I may as well speak Chinese to them because it's an unknown around here.
The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2018, 12:53:29 PM »
MbfVA, I meant for that sentence to read "The thinking that removing mortise and tenon joinery in favor of post and beam bolt and plate connections, or any other joinery method, would be easier, take less time, or less cost, is largely a false one."

Question:  Do you need an engineer, or a designer?  Each serves a different function.  I worked with a designer to first do a floorplan and then a 3d of my house.  That designer also has a lot of timberframe experience and will design the frame for the house as well as all the detailed drawings for the floorplan, and construction of the house outside of the timberframe.  The designer will produce all of the detailed construction drawings.  They typically do not supply detailed frame drawings, or detailed piece drawings for the frame.  It assumes that a competent  timberframe shop will do their own shop drawings and their own detailing of the timber connections.

The engineer will typically analyze the loads for the roof and floors and incorporate that in an analysis of the timberframe design.  Based on the proposed design they find any area of higher stress and may advise increased timber size in a certain place, or the need for special focus on joinery and/or the need for metal  for a particular connection to make it work, or a design change to make it work in wood/traditional methods.

The engineer will also help give the specifications for the foundation design given everything going on with the loads of the structure and the soil tests.  These are all vital functions when investing a large amount of money and mitigating any serious problems.

The engineer you use doesn't need to be located in your state.  The one I mentioned earlier is used for structures all over the country.  Typically engineers don't do design other than what I mentioned.  They don't provide building drawing packages.  Designers/architects do.  There are good architects and not  so good ones.   Same goes for designers.  The designer I've been using has actual timberframe building experience, which is a huge plus.

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Offline Don P

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2018, 04:57:20 PM »
Fleshing that out a bit more. The engineer does need to hold a license in the state the building is going up in, as does any registered design professional. The engineer will/ can/ should check all members and connections not just roof and floor. They can be asked to check the foundation design and/or the entire project as the engineer of record, which is a good idea. For example I had one job where a timberframe company supplied the frame, stamped by their RDP and the precast foundation was designed and stamped by that company. I came to realize I should have had an overall engineer for the entire project. On your own house you can make calls in the field that as a GC I shouldn't have been making. I would have been liable if anything had gone wrong in how the systems played together, well outside of what my insurance would have covered. I'll expand Brad's comment to all design professionals, well, all humans :D, there are good and not so good.

I do agree with Clover as well. Nothing wrong with what you are proposing. Quantify forces and provide resistance. There's a million ways to do that if you have your thinking cap on.

Offline Clover

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Re: timber frame without tenon and mortise
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2018, 06:49:29 PM »
All good advice and ideas. I've always did my own drawings when building. It could be a small shed or gazebo, garage or cottage. Just so I can get some idea of scale and loading. I did a 3000 square foot deck on my last house with no corners.  Every one wanted to know how I could do it from my head. I would show them all my drawings and they still didn't believe it. Some people just can't grasp that kind of stuff and it's not because of stupidity, They just don't grasp it. Even where my summer home is located building departments can't understand things out of the norm. You can not build a typical frost proof block foundation. The soil is still too compressive at four feet. Only friction pilings work with steel I beams welded to the top. This is done no where else that I'm aware of. Tell the building departments that your doing a friction piling foundation and again I may as well be speaking Chinese.
The reason a lot of people do not recognize opportunity is because it usually goes around wearing overalls looking like hard work. --Tom A. Edison

Home made 30 hp sawmill all hydraulic, stihl 026, 170, pioneer 65, John Deere 955 with home made forks. And a whole slew of other tools


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