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Author Topic: Newbe interested in timberframing.  (Read 5281 times)

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Offline Tremel

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Newbe interested in timberframing.
« on: September 28, 2004, 06:14:09 AM »
Hi,

I'm new to this forum and I find it very interesting.  I live in SW PA on a 103 acre farm.  I have about 60 acres of hardwood timber which I refuse to sell to the loggers who continue to hound me.  Over the past several years, I have harvested timber for my own personal use to build new buildings and upkeep the place.

My future goals are to build a timberframe barn and eventually build our dream home on our property again, in a timberframe model.

I'm a do-it-yourselfer and I'm hoping that I can use most of the resources on my own property.

I'm looking for books, plans, ideas and whatever on timberframing.  I would also be interested in attending a seminar or workshop in my region.

My hardwoods consist mostly of Maple, tulip poplar, Cherry and some oak, ash and walnut.  I think my place had been logged 50 years ago and that's why all the tulip poplar and maple populated the farm.

I would appreciate any direction folks can lead me.

Thanks,

--Bill
Bill Tremel
Claysville, PA
Collector of Antique engines, Trucks, tractors and hobby farmer.

Offline JimY

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2004, 04:24:20 PM »
Welcome to the forum Bill.

As far as books go, I like the ones by Jack Sobon.  The one we used at Joey Lowe's workshop in Texas was "Build a Classic Timber-framed House."  Steve Chappell's "A Timber Framer's Workshop" is also good.  Ted Benson's earlier books are good too.  His later books are mostly pictures.

Barr chisels are great.  Just do a google search and you'll find his website.  They aren't cheap but they are good.

I'd also check out Jim Roger's tools for sale list in the appropriate forum section.  His boring machines are priced fairly and you can trust their condition.  Or you can search on Ebay for boring machines and chisels.  Stick to Witherby, Swan, and Buck for older chisels.  Others may be fine but it's harder to be sure.

I have also taken a workshop at Goshen Timberframes in Franklin, NC.  It was good and not too expensive.  Definitely a production shop environment.  But the guys were laid back and helpful.  Philip, on the forum, is going to Cowee Mountain Timberframes also in Franklin in Nov.  You could contact him after that to get his opinion of their workshop.

Again, welcome to the FF.   ;D
Jim

Offline TN_man

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2004, 03:26:24 AM »
Welcome to the forum Bill,
I would like to add a couple of things to Jim's comments. I think it would be benefical to read several different books and to read them prior to going to a class. This will give you an idea of the different joints and techneics that are being used.
Also, I would definitely start on the barn or out buildings first to build up your skills before starting on a house. Timber-framing is very labor-intensive, so that will give you an idea of what kind of a commitment of time a house will require.
The way you describe yourself sounds like the majority of people on this forum, so you should fit in just fine.  Jeff
WM LT-20 solar-kiln Case 885 4x4 w/ front end loader  80 acre farm  little time or money

Offline IndyIan

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2004, 08:48:52 AM »
Hi Bill,

I've been to a week long Cowee Mountain timber frame workshop.  Its very cheap and gives you a good working foundation for getting the timber to look like the drawing.  They teach some theory as well but most of your time will be cutting a frame which was what I needed.
Good bunch of guys to learn from.

Ian

Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2004, 01:11:45 PM »
JimY pretty much covered the books! "Timber Frame Constuction" by Jack Sobon was all I used as a reference to build my first Timber frame. I added  "Build a Classic Timber-framed House."  And  "A Timber Framer's Workshop and I believe it will be a long time before I need another book.

I also have a 2 Barr chisel and will sing its praises all day long. If you get yourself a good set of Japanese waters stones to keep it Sharpe and itll become your best friend.
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

Offline TN_man

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2004, 01:07:08 AM »
Timber_Framer,
While I was at the seminar at JoeyLowes, he had a Tormek Supergrind 2000. That tool was awesome for sharpening chisels. It was quick and easy and had a leather wheel to polish it up after sharpening. Now I am looking to get one. I have the Japanese water stones now and have been pleased with them, but this Tormek was alot easier and put a razor sharp edge on it. I ended up sharpening all my chisels while I was there.
Also, I have a Japanese slick that I really like. It is real good at cleaning those joints up real "slick". 8)
Have a good day, Jeff
WM LT-20 solar-kiln Case 885 4x4 w/ front end loader  80 acre farm  little time or money

Offline JoeyLowe

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2004, 06:55:16 AM »
Ther is nothing nicer than working with a sharp chisel or plane and nothing more miserable than trying to use a dull one.  I've used stones, straps, dry grinders and wet ones.  I still prefer my Tormek.  As Tn-man said, it sharpens most tools quick and easy. ;D
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Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2004, 12:11:48 PM »
Hmm, doesn't that put a hollow grind on your chisels?
I've met Guild members who do use hollow ground chisels and have built a lot of Frames, however I've also met some old timers that roll their eyes and curse under their breath when I brought up the subject. I personally haven't picked a side in the argument.
I have a diamond 1" corner chisel, a 2" Barr and a 3" swan that have never had anything but stones used on them. I do however have a 1 1/2 Witherby that's been on a wheel and it hasn't failed me yet. It does need touching up more often than the others???
When I start a new project I spend about a half hour on each of my chisels starting with a diamond stone then going from a 800 or 1000 grit water stone to a 4000 grit finish. Then each day before I start I usually only need twenty to thirty passes on a 1200 and then a few more on the 4000 and I'm ready to go.
Add to that the last two Frames I worked on were in the sticks and firing up a generator the first thing in the morning doesn't really appeal to me.
However I would enjoy hearing any and all opinions concerning hollow grinding chisels.
Like I said I'm on the fence on this one, but I do like the challenge of talking my wife into getting a new toy ;D
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

Offline TN_man

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2004, 01:27:36 AM »
Timber_Framer,
I am not experienced enough to answer your concern. I can only speak from my limited experience. I did not notice any drop off in the ability to hold an edge. Also, when I need to touch it up again, it did not need to go back on the stone, just on to the leather polishing wheel and it was right back to razor edge again. Maybe someone with more experience could address your concern.
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Offline beetle

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2004, 07:05:53 AM »
I agree with TN Man, start on the barn or out building first, in addition, on your very first project start laying out and cutting joints in a area of the frame  were they wont be seen every time you walk in the building. Your skill level will build and you may want your good work to show.

I made that mistake on my Barn, I started on the lower level bent posts first and then proceeded on to the upper level Queen posts, no doubt the upper level joints are way nicer to look at than the ones down stairs.

Have fun.
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Offline Tremel

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2004, 08:21:09 AM »
Thanks to all of you.  I think I may even start smaller.  Like a clubhouse for the kids.  ;D  

I'm going to order a few books and do a little reading.  Add some tools to my Christmas list. And the big question is that I'm hoping to use mostly Maple for most of my framework construction.  I have been using the popler for siding and furing on my other outbuildings.  I use the simple method of 1" per year to dry my lumber.  Should I think about cutting my beams now if I plan to build my home in 5 years?  Are beams installed wet, dry or semi-dry.

I've built some smaller projects with 8"x8" maple beams.  I had let the timbers dry for about 2 years and they still cracked a little, but not much after another year.  I'm pretty happy with the results.

I'll be on this board alot.  Thanks for the help and encouragement.
Bill Tremel
Claysville, PA
Collector of Antique engines, Trucks, tractors and hobby farmer.

Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2004, 09:13:27 AM »
I've built frames with four year old oak and six week old aspen, but for the most part I work with one year old white pine, I've never worked with maple.
Greener wood cuts like butter, however it's nice to know your sills, floor joists and rafters aren't going to move too much.
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Newbe interested in timber framing.
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2004, 10:08:18 AM »
Tremel:
Welcome to the FF and ask away on your questions, but first you could do a search for the info and see if the answers have already been posted.
There is lots of information here and you need to read as much as you can, first. And also to know where that info is when you need to go back and find it again.
Most timber frames are put up "green" so don't even think about holding timbers for 5 years and then cut joints into them later.
Incorrect storage of such beams for a long period of time may result in twisted or warped beams.
Beams drying in a frame are held true and will dry nicely there, if you follow some simple rules.
Erect the frame in the fall, over the winter enclose starting with the roof and then walls.
During the spring and summer finish off inside details. Then next fall and winter put the "heat" on the for first time.
This will allow the timbers to dry naturally over this period of time before the rapid dry occurs from putting the "heat' on too soon.
Good luck with your project.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Offline Tremel

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2004, 02:01:28 PM »
Thanks again for all the help and encouragement.  I have some bedtime reading material.  Also, I've been scanning the archive posts.  I think I'll be a lurker on the board for awhile and suck up all the knowelege I can.

I would be interested in visiting anyone putting up frames within a 100 mile radious of SW PA.  I'm also interested in a workshop if someone plans on having one in this region.

I talked to some old farmers that use to build barns back in the 30's and 40's and they all told me the same thing.  Frame'em wet.  I have built several pole barns and buildings and I like to cut my timbers ASAP, but I usually let the boards dry for a year.

Thanks again.
Bill Tremel
Claysville, PA
Collector of Antique engines, Trucks, tractors and hobby farmer.

Offline beetle

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2004, 02:45:12 PM »
Tremel,

If everything goes right ( it usally does not ) I will be raising my barn frame come spring. I live 30-40 miles west of the Ohio/Pa border turnpike toll gate. You are more than welcome to drop by, however, bring your tools !

I will keep you posted.

Jeff
Too many hobbies...not enough time.

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2004, 07:38:46 AM »
Tremel:
The Timber Framers Guild will be holding the Eastern Conference in PA at the Seven Springs Resort just outside Somerset on the 29th, 30th, and 31st of October.
You can access information about the conference and fees for attending at the Timber Framers Guild home page Click here for link to TF Guild home page
I'll be going there and bringing all the tools we have available for sale with me, including boring machines.
If you can't come for the entire conference you could sign up for just one day.
Good luck with your reading, and hope to see you there.
Jim Rogers
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!
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Offline Tremel

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2004, 07:17:51 AM »
Sorry for the dely in response.  Work keeps me busy.

I wish I would have know about the Guild about 6 months earlier.  I could have asked for the time off and drove up, at least for the day.

Well, my wife is 100% sold on a TimberFrame home, so I think we'll be spending the winter looking at home plans and such.  I figured that since I have about 5 years of planning, there is no better time then the present to start.  I figured that after about 1000 changes to any plan that we decide on, we'll be ready to build that dream home.

I'll keep watching this forum from time to time as well as reading alot this winter.

Thanks,

--Bill
Bill Tremel
Claysville, PA
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Offline JoeyLowe

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2004, 09:03:25 AM »
Hey Tremel:

I'm glad you responded.  I had remembered that someone mentioned "hollow grinding" effect on chisels by using a wheel sharpener, but I couldn't find the post to respond.  

Hey Timberframer:

You are absolutely right about the hollow ground effect, but we need to keep it in perspective.  From all of the literature out there, the hollow grind is less than .0001 ten thousands.  It may as well not exist!  I suppose that you could go overboard with the wheel and produce a hollow grind that is more pronounced, but I doubt that every happens.  On the other hand, sharpening on a flat stone is very effective, but can be a little more time consuming.  The margin of error is greater too.  Anyway, I think it is all personal preference.  I use both ways and have good luck with both! ;D
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Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2004, 10:50:32 AM »
Thanks Joey
Ive had a few more conversations on this subject in the last few weeks and pretty much can to the same conclusion you gave. I believe it would take a very small diameter wheel and a lot of steel would need to be removed to seriously weaken the blade. But you know how persistent some old timers can be!
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2004, 11:16:22 AM »
Hi Tremel:

Thought I would describe a couple of tools I have that may not fall into the basic tool kit of a timber framer, but if you are planning on building all those buildings you should consider them. The first is a Makita chain mortiser. This baby will really make short work of the slowest joint in timber framing. I would say that you can make three or maybe even four mortises with this tool in the same time it would take to make one with a drill bit and chisels and of the same quality. I suggest the Makita over the other (mostly European) models because of lower cost and 120v instead of 220v electrical requirements. This speed and quality comes with a cost though. I bought mine from KMS Tools who seemed to offer the unit at the best price. You can look them up at www.kmstools.com
I also just bought a Makita 6 3/4" planer to clean up the reference faces and prepare the timber for finishing. I have built two small timber frames(16x20') while taking courses offered here in Ontario, Canada and didn't use this planer on either frame. We prepared the timbers with either a hand plane or 3 1/2" power planers. This year I hosted the course and had
the opportuntiy to see the big girl in action and thought of all the hours that could be saved with it and then bought one from KMS as well.
Finally this tool is something for sharpening chisels that seems to eliminate the issue of hollow grinding and still offers the speed precision and conveince of the Tormek. I can not vouch for the tool myself because I do not at present own one but it is under serious consideration. The sharpener is produced by Lee Valley Tools at this page http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=48435&category=1,43072&ccurrency=1&SID=

Hope this helps and I look forward to more stuff on this thread.

Jeff

Offline JoeyLowe

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2004, 01:17:08 PM »
Hi Jeff:

Tell me moer about your chain morticer.  I've been thinking of buying one and most likely will, but it sure would be nice to know how they really perform.  Did you get different sized chains?  Do you have an extra chain?  What about sharpening the chain?  Enquiring minds want to know!! ;D
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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2004, 05:28:33 PM »
Hey Joey:

The chain morticer works beautifully. I don't have huge miles on mine but the the instructor of the work shop we host has used the same Makita morticer in his framing business for many frames and even he is amazed at the longevity of the machine. In operation the morticer is simple, align  it to your layout lines, clamp it to the beam, plunge cut and then cant the head two more positions. The system usually has to be reclamped to cut a 2" by 7" mortice but the process is fast and simple. The more time you spent working with the machine the faster you get. As for the chains well the standard 23/32" chain works just fine and I don't see any reason tro own any other size unless you need smaller mortices. Our local saw shop sharpens the chains for $12.00 CDN. and it will easily cut three or even four 16x20 buildings.
My suggestion, if you are building more than one frame buy one because if you don't need it any longer the used market for them is strong but once you own a sweet tool I find them hard to part with. You should also talk to KMS because they sell them at a great price and will ship state side.

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2004, 08:00:03 AM »
Jeff:

Thanks for the info on the morticer.  I have seen them on ebay for around $1200.00 (USD) but before I part with that kind of money, I wanted to make sure that they were what they claim to be.  In my opinion it is nice to know the old way of doing things because it helps you understand how a power tool will speed things up.  I have put one on my Christmas list.

Regards,

Joey
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Offline Timber_Framer

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2004, 09:03:38 AM »
Ive been drooling over a chain morticer for years now, however I got lucky and found an old drill stand for $30.00 at a yard sale. So I load it with  either a 2 or a 1 self feed saw tooth forstner bit and hog out the mortises. It can be a pain resetting it for each cut and there is a bit more clean out, but it is $1170.00 cheaper then the makita ;D
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2004, 03:55:42 PM »
I bought a Makita chain mortiser right from the get go when
I started to cut my frame.  I plan to cut more frames so I
looked at it as a business investment.  I bought mine from
Bailey's.  They had the best price at the time that I bought
it.  
LT40HD, 12' ext, 5105 JD tractor
M&K Timber Works

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Re: Newbe interested in timberframing.
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2005, 08:08:16 AM »
Just thought I would revisit an old topic here.  I have had my chain morticer for a few months now and it performs as stated above.  The increased speed surely removes a lot of the tedium of hogging out mortices.  You still have to put the final touchs on with a chisel, but a sharp chisel makes short work of that too.  I ordered a second chain on Tuesday and it showed up on Weds. (Not bad turnaround).  We sent the first chain out to be resharpened yesterday and was told that it takes about a week to get it back. 

I decided to give the slick a good sharpening yesterday. so I broke out the plate glas plate, various and sundry grits of sandpaper and emory cloth and had it.  Less than 30 minutes later, I was "making paper" with this fine tool.

Oh, by the way, Timberwolf sent me a new catalog with some of their other tools that are available and I immediately began drooling over one in particular, the Protool portable bandsaw.  Does anyone have on these bad boys or has anyone seen one in action?  They are used for cutting arches and decorative molding profiles.  Short of hand carving, what are some methods that the old timers used instead of a bandsaw?  Just curious. 
--
Joey Lowe

"Working towards perfection has to be a part of anything one does.  You've got to put yourself into it." ... Sam Maloof (chairmaker)


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