I had a forestor look at my timber

[Minnesota_boy]

But isn't it the landowners responsibility to hold the foresters feet to the fire?  If he accepts the forester's advice and the forester accepts the money, a contract has been fulfilled.  If he thinks the forester isn't giving him full value for his money, then he needs to get a second opinion.  It's his land and therefore his responsibility.

I had the choice of 2 foresters to lay out my timber sale.  I chose one primarily for his ability to help with the tax situation.  I felt I got good value for my money, even if I did have to prod him to get the numbers I needed for my taxes.  The other one may have done as well laying out the timber sale and getting the money for the stumpage, but wasn't able to do the other part.

[Ron Wenrich]

The way a timber sale is layed out around here is:  the forester goes out and runs a perimeter around the sale boundary, he marks the timber and cruises (rarely do they make distinctions on sawlog vs veneer), they compile the numbers and put the timber out on bid.

The bid sheet includes the number of trees by diameter class and by species.  They also give a breakdown of footage.  Cull trees are also noted.  Some guys will make a quality statement.  There is usually a disclaimer that no volumes or qualities are guaranteed and you should bid based on your own numbers.  I have yet to see a reserve bid on private timber.  

The logger goes and does his figuring on past experience, his markets, logging difficulty, distance for trucking, etc.  Some guys bid on their gut, others do the numbers.  I've even seen guys go in an number trees on a high quality veneer job.  They then submit a lump sum bid.  At that point, you get your average price/Mbf for the timber.  How you arrive at it makes no difference.  

The forester's job is to bring the seller and buyer together, mark the timber in a responsible way, and to oversee the logging operations.

The logger's job is to remove timber in a professional way that is beneficial to the woodlot, and to market his logs where he can make the most money.  Not all loggers have the same markets, and this is reflected in the bid value.  The manufacturing and marketing of logs is where they make their money.

Some guys will leave by products in the woods.  The cost of dragging out pulpwood and shipping does not offset the value.  Some loggers just don't deal in pulpwood.  That material is left in the woods.  The logger paid for it, he chose not to utilize it.  Normally, they have to either cut or kill all marked trees.  Otherwise, you would have a bunch of highgrading.

At the end of the sale, the landowner can put that out for bids.  Its not uncommon to see landowners advertising topwood for sale at so much per truckload.  

I really don't see any problem.  You could put a timber sale out that is measured in any volume you see fit.  Tons, bf International, bf Doyle, cu ft, cords, bastard cords, etc.  In the end, you have a lump sum price, and that's what the timber is worth at that given point in time.

Now, sawing on shares is something totally different or sawing by the foot.  I haven't seen any timber sales that have been developed like that.  Usually they are between a logger and a landowner.  Seller beware.

[Tom]

Then, perhaps, you hired the right Forester.  To listen to the argument that Foresters use to get hired and provide a service, you will hear the horror stories of the sales that took place without a forester's advice.  The Foresters depend on their expertise and knowledge to provide the service of manageing the forest and the sale for the benefit of the landowner.  If it's the case that the landowner needs to hold the forester's feet to the fire, then who needs foresters.

I had my shoulders operated on by a surgeon who studied the repair of shoulders.  I told him what I wanted done and told me he could do it. I didn't request that I be kept awake during the surgery to make sure that he didn't cut my leg off.  I had to trust him to do the right job on my shoulder too.  I don't know one part of the thing from the other accept just enough to try to understand his explanations.  DanGed if I was going to suggest where to put the hole or what to cut on or which tool to use.  If I'd needed to do all that, I wouldn't have needed the surgeon.

The forestry thing boils down to ethics.  The landowner is paying the bill.  The forester works for the landowner. His allegiance should be to the landowner.

I'm not condoning an ooperation that would treat the logger wrongly.  But I am dead set against the logger making "wind-fall" off of the landowner because the forester was favoring the harvester rather than the owner of the trees.

As a custom sawyer, I am hired to cut 1x4's, 1x6's and 2x4's.
It would be a lot easier on some logs to leave 4x4's instead of slicing them into 1x4's.  Heck I could get the wood off of the mill quicker and time is money.  Matter of fact, I could do better if I made 6x6's instead of 1x6's too.  Now, if the log owner isn't looking, why couldn't I just slip those cants off onto the pile.  I'd make more money.

As far as I'm concerned, if the logger wants to make the decision to sell a log for less than it's worth because it's not worth his time to sort it, then he can take the dollars out of his pocket, not somebody else's.  For the forester to accept the logger's bid because he doesn't want to "bother" with a certain product and tell the landowner that he is getting a fair deal, isn't right.

[leweee]

Tom...As a land owner I would prefer a quaity job over top dollar for low grade product.It always seems to be a compromise between quality & $$$. Reminds me of a sign seen in an office. GOOD,FAST or CHEAP pick any two. you just don't get all three together  sorry ??? :'(

[Tom]

It appears that my interpretation of Quality differs.

[Jeff]

Tom, when I say I got 2 and you cut 3 refers to the 51% figure. Maybe I am thinking wrong, but isn't 3 boards, 50% more then 2 boards?

[SwampDonkey]

Tom:

That difference in price between low grade sawlog and pulp isn't a wide enough margin to justify hiring another person to buck it out unless there is enough high grade sawlogs in the cutting area, then that low grade will likely get separated from pulp. A person has to appreciate the situation or type of sites we have up here compared to warmer climates south. Our hardwood quality isn't that great here. The size sawlogs you guys are cutting above 12 inches are usually gone past their prime up here. Also, as I stated before, its impossible to see inside the bark with the tree standing. A person has to draw on experience from what he knows is the potential for trees growing in the area being cruised. Costs to separate low grade sawlogs outway the benefit to the logger who is usually in competition over that wood with several other loggers. I don't feel the owner is getting the dirty end of the stick on this. If the owner wants to hire the bucker he can. In most cases the owner is only interested in $$ from the highest bidder and is far removed from the harvesting. Only 1 in 10 cruises are instigated by the owner in my experience. The owner usually just calls a bunch of contractors or advertises the lot and lets the contractors with the best price do the job. Some contractors hire a cruise, most don't. They just walk the lot a little bit and it's usually not that extensive a walk. I remember one contractor who barely left the road and he comes back saying the wood isn't there. He cuts the wood, he says he would never have believed it. Well, he didn't untill he cut it. It was then he admitted in not walking the lot very thoroughly after I shamed him into it. I remember this happening with another guy to, only he didn't get to cut it, but a friend of his did. The friend said the wood was definately there and the first guy still refused to accept it. : As a forester I believe I have an obligation to whomever hires me and I always keep the owners interest in mind. I don't know of any land owner that has ever accused me of ripping him off. Their interests are being well looked after on my part. I believe we have an obligation to keep the local contractors and loggers going or else it'll be totally run by large industry who already have total control of public forests here. And it isn't right.

I'll cut it off here. ;)

By the way, I agree with Ron W's points he's made here also. And everyone has different situations to deal with. Most timber up our way isn't marked, only in special cases where a forester is hired to look after the woodlot and the harvesting. Our woodlots just don't yield the hardwood sawlogs you find in the south. We manage mostly for softwoods.

I'll cut it off here. ;)

[tomtom]

I am in the process of letting part of our hunt camp bush out to tender. We have 600 acres in northern Ontario. We had a forester come in and mark about 50 acres of hardwood, maple,ash, some cherry. It has been highgraded in the past.Some really big overmature maple, A lot of canker , fungus and other defects.He marked to remove disease, defects , and then mature, in that order. The remaining bush will come ahead and be healthy. Our next cut I will not likely be around for, but at least I feel we have made an effort to improve , our kids will reap the benefits. We will cut fresh blocks every year or two, and will gradualy get over it. As we are in a major deer yard , as well as some moose . The hunting and winter brouse supply will also improve . We have an area of lower ground , he recomended removing all the Balsum, poplar, white birch, and white spruce over12 inch as as a pulp or log cut. No hemlock , or other species would be cut in this area. There is quite a lot of yellow birch in this cut, he feels that by taking out the softwood it will let the remaining hardwoods, reseed themselves and have a head start. Does anyone have any opinions, or recomendations.
  I am new to this board , and would welcome new ideas. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all . Tom

[SwampDonkey]

tomtom:

Welcome to the forum.

I assume your forester is working with basal area tally (actual, removed, leave) and in doing so will remove the mature fir and poplar which are short lived. Your white birch are usually short lived although you do come across some old growth beasts once in a while, depends on site. I'de follow pretty much the same prescription myself. The harvesting of the shade intolerant hardwood and white spruce above 12 inches might be considered a diameter limit cut or high grade. But, once you understand that these species don't grow well in shade and if they exist at smaller diameters they are likely to be of good quality also. Just avoid leaving tall spindly ones, they won't stand once released. Red spruce on the other hand grows in shade well and releases well from shaded conditions. However, they aren't likely to be as good quality as ones not overtopped when growing, and they are very long lived.

I was just cruising a similar lot the last two days which is mostly hardwood with a cedar stand running through the middle. In this hardwood there is alot of fir that is mainly decadent,even on the dryer cedar microsites. Alot of deadfall littlered on the ground. The remaining fir in those areas are not long for this world as they are mainly over topped or with less than 1/3 live crown. The woodlot has had some harvesting but its been 30 years and it wasn't that uniform or harsh on the woodlot. These folks have big engineering jobs and were not focused on cutting wood, but the owner wants to get back to his woods ground as soon as he retires to work it with tractor and winch. The only roads were old grown in trails that need upgrading and extending to get good ground coverage. There is also some black cherry coming into those old harvested 'microsites' and they are all diseased. Never seen any mature ones so I assume birds have brought the seed from farms along the river valley. We live in the Potato growing belt of New Brunswick, so lots of farms and line fences where the cherry can grow. Yellow birch will seed well if you make patch cuts and disturb the mineral soil. They release seed in Sept-October in my area from cone like structures, as you can see them in the fall with a good wind releasing like somone with a peppar shaker. Here too there was a few scattered hemlock which I too would recommend leaving for biodiverity, stand structure and wildlife benefits. White ash is also present and averaging 10 inches for mature trees. I would retain a few of those for mast trees for birds and coons. The coons won't leave my ash trees alone on my lawn in summer. They eat the seeds and the flowers. There were lots of moose sign on this woodlot also, never saw any deer sign.

The cedar on this woodlot was nice to walk through, like parkland with their 14 inch  (at dbh) trunks. The canopy seemed to be full of red-eyed veros making their peeping noises. For cedar I would harvest the leaners as there are usually quite few around.

Sorry for the run-on post. Maybe you can make sence of some of it? ;)  I'm sure your in good hands with your your timber sale. 600 acres is alot of ground to work.

[tomtom]

Swampdonkey, Thanks for your reply , I have enjoyed getting this cut ready. I spent a week at camp last spring, doing the cooking and following our forester around, he is a friend of mine so he spent a lot of time explaining , the reasons for selecting certain trees for removal. Our lot has a high percentage of the trees , with frost cracks, canker etc. This has let various funguses start. He showed me the various types and named them, I hope he doesn't take up a test and expect me to name them. I believe that long term highgrading ,and the leaving of diseased tree in the past, has led to our present conditions.
  In theunmarked section he is proposing to take out all the Balsum as it is dying out,all the birch and poplar, also the White Spruce down to 12 inch stump diameter. Are you saying that to leave the remaining Spruce that they might not do well. We are hoping that the disturbance of the ground , will help the Yellow birch to reseed.
   The hardwood marked area averaged 26m basal area to start , I think, He tried to leave about 20m. Some areas he had to go down to 16 m ,to get rid of the defects. Are we on the right track. Good luck to all. Tom

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like your in good hands and having a friend as a forester helps alot also. Regarding the white spruce, I wouldn't leave any being over topped by the hardwood as they won't produce seed and if you see 'silver dollar' sized scales in the butt logs they'll be red inside. Leave smooth barked and fast growing white spruce, they'll be much healthier. In my area the white spruce which appear to be healthiest are those that are tall and not flat topped and also ones not growing on abandoned pasture land. Those flat topped , fat diametered, limby white spruce won't respond to release like a red spruce can. If your in a white spruce stand where your walking on the anchor roots, they might as well be cut and they'll have a high percentage of red rot ,brown cubical or other fomes and armillaria disease/rot causing species. Butt limbed white spruce are very susceptible to rot causing fungi. It appears that your on the right track. Frost crack or wind stress in hardwood and large spruce is a problem here also.

[Phorester]

Ron;
"Phorester  
Are you saying that foresters underscale low value trees?  Kind of gets back to the quality of the cruise that I talked about.
 
When you ask a guy what he paid for a tract of timber, they will give you an average price, not the price per species.  A bidder may have bid a high price for one species and a low price for another.  But, the final price is the lump sum price.
 
I commented before about foresters culling trees due to relative value and not merchantible volume.  Nobody seemed to think that was out of line."

RON, This conversation is hard to follow coming in only once every day or so and reading the many, long,  messages posted after I left.  There is also the element of our widely varying experiences, the region we live in with different tree growing conditions and different wood markets, how timber is customarily bought and sold in different regions, how we each define the term "Forester".  But since I'm wide awake and alert after a couple cups of coffee, let me try to continue.....

To other professional foresters, the term "Forester" means somebody with a 4 year college degree in forest management.  To others it just means somebody looking to buy or cut trees.  I overheard one landowner waving his hand over the skidder operators, truck drivers, sawyers, on a log deck in his woods say to his teenage son; "these guys are all foresters". (He didn't point to ME and say that...  I was "the government man"   :-/)  

And then you get into specific forester jobs and the end goals of each job.  There are professional foresters employed by a timber industry whose job it is to buy trees and logs. He trys to pay as little as he can for trees.  There should be a point where ethics kicks in so he doesn't cheat the landowner, but different people will have a different ethical limit.  And that limit can also be argued.   Others are talking about consulting foresters working for a landowner to sell his timber. If both are to be loyal to their employer, each of these have different motives based on who is paying them.  I think some of us are getting both confused.

Speaking strictly from a volume estimating standpoint, I feel that no ethical Forester should underscale any tree or log.  I think the way to put value on a tree is through grading, not volume estimating.  The final price paid is decided through whatever method is being used.  Sealed bids where one price is offered by each buyer with no option to negotiate after the bids are opened, or some sort of negotiation - haggling, dickering, give-and-take, whatever you want to call it. A forester working for a landowner to SELL a landowner's timber should not underscale low value trees. The landowner should get paid for the total volume of low value trees, although it will be a lower price because these trees are of lower quality. But a Forester in that same woods trying to BUY the timber has an inclination to underscale low value trees, since his employer wouldn't have to pay as much for them because of the lower cruise volume.

I agree with your other points in the last 2 paragraphs quoted above.