So what to do with Aspen logs?

[2StateTrigger]

Kinda wondering what I could do with a ton of Aspen logs. 

[OneWithWood]

Big tooth makes great dimension lumber and ceiling t&g
make cants and sell to pallet mill

[Frickman]

I used to leave it lay in the woods. Aspen has absolutely no value in my area. It came in handy for the ruffed grouse to use as drumming logs.

[Firewoodjoe]

Brings $130 a cord here to the Amish.

[grassfed]

I sell it mostly for pulp I get about $110 a cord here in NE vermont. I have sold logs to sawmills when they are asking for it. There are markets for veneer to make plywood. It all depends on what is going on when I cut it and how much trucking will cost. I have made some good dimensional lumber with it and when I test it against spruce and fir I find that it will bend more but break less. It makes the worst firewood in the world unless you can dry it AND store it in a dry area. It has a tendency to suck any moisture back into the wood. If it is not in contact with the ground it does not rot very quickly. It turns gray and seems to "case harden" in that it gets very much harder on the surface after it dries. It is tricky to saw and can warp quickly. A ton is not very much I sell 500+ tons a year and a 10 wheeler load is about 15-16 tons It weighs about 2.6 tones per cord in this area.

[woodmills1]

It makes nice wood for painting for inside trim boards.

[Puffergas]

Makes nice boards but I don't use it for 2x's because of poor nail holding.

[Ljohnsaw]

<<snip>>
It turns gray and seems to "case harden" in that it gets very much harder on the surface after it dries. It is tricky to saw and can warp quickly.

Makes nice boards but I don't use it for 2x's because of poor nail holding.

Hmmm, I plan to use my Aspen for my cabin 2x floor because I heard that it was reasonably hard.  I'm nailing into pine joists so I think it should "hold" in my application.

[grassfed]

Based on my experience it is easier to nail when it is still green. I did not have problems with it holding nails but the things that I built I used ring shank and or galvanised nails. It can split off the nail hole near the end of the board. If I was going to do a floor with it I would saw it and sticker it good then when it was dry I would drill and then nail. You have to be careful if you saw it because the boards on the outside of some logs have some tension in them and can really warp as soon as they are cut so expect to have some waste . You should put down a vapor barrier if it is going to be over dirt in a cabin; that would probably make too much moisture and you might start growing some mushrooms ;D.

[Firewood dealer]

A ton of Aspen logs??? Sounds like you only have about 400bft!..............Sorry  :D

[Ljohnsaw]

Based on my experience it is easier to nail when it is still green. I did not have problems with it holding nails but the things that I built I used ring shank and or galvanised nails. It can split off the nail hole near the end of the board. If I was going to do a floor with it I would saw it and sticker it good then when it was dry I would drill and then nail. You have to be careful if you saw it because the boards on the outside of some logs have some tension in them and can really warp as soon as they are cut so expect to have some waste . You should put down a vapor barrier if it is going to be over dirt in a cabin; that would probably make too much moisture and you might start growing some mushrooms ;D.

Thanks for the advice/heads-up!  This will be over a 10' high concrete daylight basement.  It will be an insulated floor (non-heated basement) but I might go ahead and put vapor barrier down just keep the moisture in the living quarters up a little.  I want a "rustic" look to the floor so I'm headed towards nails rather than screws.  My floor joists are 24" OC but the flooring is at a 45° angle (per engineer).  Would you think 2x6 to 2x8s need to be T&G or Lapped for that span (34") to remain stiff?

[azmtnman]

  I believe our geographical differences have us talking about 2 very different aspens. I see your looking to move to CO. That aspen is quaking leaf aspen and I believe it is a very different from the poplar-like aspen of the east. (correct me if I'm wrong guys)   
   Quaking leaf is a very soft wood. I haven't had the chance to saw any for lumber, but I do know that it's used for that. It is a favorite firewood (after juniper) here as it is clean burning. My fly-tying table is made of aspen and it is a very white wood with a sort of maple type grain. 

[starmac]

Since you mentioned the colorado aspen, does anybody know what type of aspen is in the interior of Alaska, it does not look like what I used to see in Colorado, New mexico and Arizona.

[Puffergas]

My Aspen may not be the same as yours. Worked great nailing aspen board to hemlock but after a Aspen 2 x 4 dried I could almost pull the nail out by hand. Otherwise I really like it. Was used for children's toys because of the low sliver threat. Glues well.

[barbender]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Quaking Aspen is the most widely distributed tree in North America. The Quaking Aspen in New York is the same species as in MN, AK, CO, or AZ. The form changes some based on location and environment, but it's the same tree. In the Lake States, we also have the aforementioned Bigtooth Aspen, which is very similar to Quaking and they often grow together. At the mill, they're both just "Aspen".

[azmtnman]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Quaking Aspen is the most widely distributed tree in North America. The Quaking Aspen in New York is the same species as in MN, AK, CO, or AZ. The form changes some based on location and environment, but it's the same tree. In the Lake States, we also have the aforementioned Bigtooth Aspen, which is very similar to Quaking and they often grow together. At the mill, they're both just "Aspen".

Looking at Wikipedia you are correct! I always thought the quaking leaf aspen was strictly a Rocky Mt. tree. Everybody that visits us from back east thinks our aspens are birch.

[chester_tree _farmah]

Don't Forget the Big Tooth. They seem to grow bigger faster and are healthy up here in my part of Maine.  ;D 

[beenthere]

.................
  Looking at Wikipedia you are correct! I always thought the quaking leaf aspen was strictly a Rocky Mt. tree. Everybody that visits us from back east thinks our aspens are birch.

And "everybody" seems to think if it is green-needled evergreen, that it is a "pine". 

[Rocky_Ranger]

There are two small aspen sawmills down southwest of Durango, seem to be keeping pretty busy sawing.  Aspen makes a great floor; I always thought it was soft -and it is, but seen it hold up well.  Siding (interior) or T&G ceiling is nice too.  I have a friend in the business going to peel it and ship to the Pac NW.  Don't know if it will pencil out or not.  Lots of aspen on the GMUG NF waiting on a good idea.....

[redprospector]

 

 
I made this ceiling out of the last Aspen I got into.  ;D

[barbender]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Quaking Aspen is the most widely distributed tree in North America. The Quaking Aspen in New York is the same species as in MN, AK, CO, or AZ. The form changes some based on location and environment, but it's the same tree. In the Lake States, we also have the aforementioned Bigtooth Aspen, which is very similar to Quaking and they often grow together. At the mill, they're both just "Aspen".

Looking at Wikipedia you are correct! I always thought the quaking leaf aspen was strictly a Rocky Mt. tree. Everybody that visits us from back east thinks our aspens are birch.

  I would agree that the Aspen out west has a bit different of an appearance, it seems to be a little shorter and the bark a bit brighter white. I figured it was just a result of a different environment, but I've been wrong before  ;)

[2StateTrigger]

Lots of aspen on the GMUG NF waiting on a good idea.....

GMUG NF?

[beenthere]

Like everybody should know that one...   ;D

http://www.fs.usda.gov/gmug

The Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests

[Decked]

around here, it's just called "Beaverwood"

[2StateTrigger]

Like everybody should know that one...   ;D

http://www.fs.usda.gov/gmug

The Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre and Gunnison National Forests

BeenThere, I didnt know that, thus my question.....As you can tell I'm a newbie trying to learn.....Thx

[beenthere]

2StateTrigger
Not likely anyone knew that... outside the USFS. No offense meant to Rocky

I was kidding and being facetious.  ;)

[BEEMERS]

I believe the rees out west are quaking Aspen. Here in MI we have both quaking and Big Tooth.I don't generally see the together.The quaking are smaller and with a creamier bark and the Big tooth can be crappy little scraggly things or huge monster good for veneer depending greatly on soil types and water table.
where im at I sell to a mill that makes pallets.Ive sold form $95 to $130 a cord depending on the market...I think I in this year at $130...
Ive sold veneer Aspen for $450per thousand square feet.
if it doesn't make grade for pallets it goes for pulp..thats where Im at I know different regions have different markets.

[BEEMERS]

If you go to my gallery all the logs in it are Big Tooth Aspen..the stacks are sawlogs and most of the rest is veneer.if anyone wants to take from my gallery and post it here that's fine with me Im not good at it.

[Rocky_Ranger]

No issues with the"GMUG" miff - I've worked for this outfit so DanG long I talk in code sometimes.  I should have spelled it out - of course, it'd take me a spell to type that conglomeration of letters :D

[Ljohnsaw]

If you go to my gallery all the logs in it are Big Tooth Aspen..the stacks are sawlogs and most of the rest is veneer.if anyone wants to take from my gallery and post it here that's fine with me Im not good at it.

Wow, waaaaay different looking than my Quaking Aspen out here in the west!

 

[SwampDonkey]

  Looking at Wikipedia you are correct! I always thought the quaking leaf aspen was strictly a Rocky Mt. tree. Everybody that visits us from back east thinks our aspens are birch.

You also have balsam poplar which is almost as popular as the quaking kind. ;D At times mills take all aspens/popples here, and sometimes they get fussier and don't want balsam poplar. I think the wood of aspens is much the same as cottonwood. Out west they have black cottonwood and you can't tell it apart very easy from balsam. They both have sticky stinky buds. ;D

[grassfed]

As far as variation there are not many hard lines. On my land they hybridise. When I first walked the land with a forester I asked him to ID some trees and he told me that they were Aspen hybrids;  later I also read it in the USDA Plant database: http://plants.usda.gov/plantguide/pdf/cs_potr5.pdf

Quaking aspen hybridizes naturally with bigtooth
aspen (Populus grandidentata), narrowleaf
cottonwood (P. angustifolia), curly poplar (P.
canescens), balsam poplar (P. balsamifera), eastern
cottonwood (P. deltoides), and white poplar (Populus
alba, a naturalized European species), and hybrids
with black cottonwood (P. trichocarpa) occur rarely
in Alaska[/quote

ljohnsaw I have aspens that look exactly like the ones in your picture and I also have Balsam Poplars (Balm of Gilead) and there are also trees that are somewhere in between ; more silver (less yellow)  and rougher bark than Quaking but not as rough and silver as Balsam. The best lumber comes from the large vigorous quaking aspens that grow on better drained areas. That may be why they do better out west where it is dryer

[SwampDonkey]

You don't get the quality from second growth aspen either. Seed born aspen is much nicer. You don't have all the diseases that might get transmitted in inter connected roots off the parent tree. And aspen suckering on wet ground is pretty poor, I see it here all the time, and the moose will destroy most of it on those sights around here. I usually have to cut most of it down when thinning with a brush saw because the tops are broke off or just dead stubs in the way.

[redprospector]

Hmm.
Around here if you're talking about Balsam, you ain't talking about Aspen.

[SwampDonkey]

we have balsam poplar (an aspen of the populous genus) and balsam fir, Both have resin. What do you have?

They still make cold medicine from balsam fir resin. ;D

We call aspens popple or poplar up here, but to the south it's an entirely different tree. Tulip tree.

[shinnlinger]

I have my local sawyer make boards out of quaking and big tooth into boards for my woodshop students.  Doesn't gum up the machines like pine and  the projects look pretty good.   Thick stuff gets made into bowls.   

[barbender]

Balsam poplar is usually referred to as Balmy, or Bam, or Balm of Gilead around here. On some sites it actually grows with pretty nice form, it seems to prefer a bit wetter ground. As a matter of fact, Aspen stands of transition to Balmy as the site gets wetter.
     Ljohnsaw, your quaking aspen looks just like MN quaking aspen ;)

[BEEMERS]

Funny thing..I don't know if we have Balsam Aspen .I don't know if we have Balm of Gilead..I don't know what either one are..but all my life the old boys always pointed to a certain type of tree and said ......Bombagilliard.....Thats exactly how they pronounce it and they all never have waivered from that.
I swear everytime its a Cottonwood.But what do I know?
If you pronounced it right YOUD be the weirdo!!
Also whenever I say the word Aspen when referring to...Aspen...they look at me like IVE lost my mind!!!..So I say "Popple" and they nod like..."There ya go boy...now ya got it right!!!"

[BEEMERS]

 

 

Big Tooth aspen 130 feet tall 26 inch dbh 50 feet of veneer..Central of lower Penn. Michigan on my property.

[BEEMERS]

 

 
My scaler going to work on Bigtooth Aspen.

[SwampDonkey]

Yes them codgers use those terms up here to with balsam poplar or balm-of-gilead, or what however it comes out with a wad of chewing tobacco in their cheek. :D Our aspen here get no taller than 90 feet and I've seen them 36 at dbh, but they are all about gone from this area that big. Been cut or fell down by now. I've seen big balm to and the bark gets orangy and deep furrows. Those were in cedar swamps. I think they have better form than most aspen truth be told. But we have good aspen ground and some real bad knarly stuff to.  ;D


Don't be fooled by the beech leaves, but these are large tooth with the white blotches growing on hardwood ground.



Here's a 32" incher growing near the edge of a cedar swamp. Still see the white spots in the old bark.



They get limy because they grow taller than the cedar.




26" dbh trembling in a cedar swamp mixed with fir.



Nasty widow maker with conk and long branches in a  cedar swamp , 36" dbh.



Another widespread nasty one about the same dbh, around 80 feet tall in cedar stand.



balm buds



trembling with flower buds



large tooth twig

[Ljohnsaw]

SD,
Great pictures of the buds.  Too bad I have to cut my trees down to see them!  My limbs are a good 100-120' up and my eyes aren't that good anymore.  Maybe get a spotting scope...

[redprospector]

we have balsam poplar (an aspen of the populous genus) and balsam fir, Both have resin. What do you have?

They still make cold medicine from balsam fir resin. ;D

We call aspens popple or poplar up here, but to the south it's an entirely different tree. Tulip tree.

We've got Balsam Fir. Heck, I didn't even know there was such a critter as balsam poplar. Learn something new every day.  ;D

[SwampDonkey]

make some logs and boards.  ;D :D

[grassfed]

balm-of-gilead, or what however it comes out with a wad of chewing tobacco in their cheek.

I have a neighbor that calls balm-of-gilead bomb-a-gillyon. :

[chester_tree _farmah]

Bomb-a-gillyon. Lol. Nice. How about calling quaking the Money tree? Local nickname around here. Not sure if it's because the leaves dangle like bills on a dollar tree or because they grow fast and bring decent money. Once u  r around them enough it's pretty easy to tell them apart. They will only take 10% Bomb-a-gillyon in a pulp load. The boards from the Bomb-a-gillyon have a lot of character as Swamp Donkey aludes too - a lot. Nice pics Swamp Donkey. :)

[cutterboy]

Aspen makes good looking lumber. Usually light in color


 
but sometimes darker


 
The lumber came from two different trees, both Quaking Aspen.

[BEEMERS]

Anyone have pictures of Bomb-a-Gillion? I swear everytime someone said that here they were pointing at a Cottonwood.

[SwampDonkey]

The name balm of Gilead was from an ointment made for cold medicine from the resin in the buds of balsam poplar. How it got construed to other labels from that is mysterious. :D

http://tidcf.nrcan.gc.ca/en/trees/factsheet/53

And resin of balsam fir is still used in cold medicine as Buckley's Mixture. ;D

http://www.buckleys.ca/products/adult_liquids

click on "more product info" and look under "non-medicinal ingredients."  There is also pine needle oil in  it. :D

There seems to be a cross between balsamifera and deltoides (eastern cottonwood) they call balm of Gilead as well or P. × gileadensis.

[BEEMERS]

So....Is balsam poplar also known as balm of Gilead? or is it a seperate species? Are we dealing with two or three different names for one species of tree? Cottonwood?  Or Three seperate Species?
Here the old boys call cotton wood Bomb-a-Gilliards.

[beenthere]

BEEMERS
This may (or may not ;) ) help sort it out.  One explanation from whence the name of the salve (balm of Gilead) came.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balm_of_Gilead

There is info that leads to making balm (of Gilead) from cottonwood buds too. Thence more confusion to add to the balm coming from balsam Commiphora_gileadensis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commiphora_gileadensis

[Clark]

Balm of Gilead (Populus balsamifera) is the same thing as balsam poplar. Cottonwood is a different species and depending on how large an area you want to include could be several different species.

With that said, balsam poplar looks more like cottonwood than it does aspen. It tends to grow in wet areas much like cottonwood and I can only imagine produces lumber more similar to cottonwood. Also, I hate balsam poplar.

Clark

[SwampDonkey]

BEEMERS
This may (or may not ;) ) help sort it out.  One explanation from whence the name of the salve (balm of Gilead) came.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balm_of_Gilead

There is info that leads to making balm (of Gilead) from cottonwood buds too. Thence more confusion to add to the balm coming from balsam Commiphora_gileadensis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commiphora_gileadensis

But black cottonwood (not indicated in this post) is almost the same as balsam poplar (balm of Gilead). Eastern cottonwood (also not shown) is quite distinct from both species. Black cottonwood is basically a giant version of balsam poplar and has a very small growing range. They have a var. at the end of the Latin name to distinguish both.

[barbender]

Young balsam poplar and aspen can be diffucult to tell apart, at least from the seat of a forwarder ;)

[SwampDonkey]

I just look at the leaves (summer) and buds (winter) if they are pole sized or smaller. In winter those resinous terminal buds are quite blump. Give them a squeeze and that resin gums your fingers up and stinks. :D After a summer's rain the air is heavy to balsam smell if your near a grove of them.

[Glenn]

When i was in college i had a small text book on twig id.  We had to know all our trees by leaf, twig and bark.  The book was very well done and had a twig id key.  I think it was written by the mnr.  It should still be in my office somewhere but i haven't seen it in years.  If anyone knows the book and where i can get another please let me know.

[SwampDonkey]

I'm not sure of that book, but the State of Maine has or had a good book on overwintering trees and shrubs. All hand drawings very detailed and keys.

I tried google, it didn't turn up. The cover was white background with blue ink drawing. I have it somewhere in storage.

[barbender]

     Like SD said they're easy enough to tell apart by leaves and buds when they're standing. My point is that they look similar enough that they can be hard to tell apart when they are cut and limbed, 100"

[grassfed]

My point is that they look similar enough that they can be hard to tell apart when they are cut and limbed, 100"

My experience is it is not too hard to tell them apart.  Aspen wood that has been freshly cut is more yellow and does not have much heart wood, if any, sometimes it has rot or the start of rot but the line between where it is beginning to spoil and good wood it clear.

Balm wood is more whitish gray and almost always has allot of heart/stain; there is not a clear distinction between good wood and where it is spoiling. There is also a distinctive sour smell from fresh cut Balm.

I have sold aspen saw logs to mills for rough use like skids and cribbing and they will not even take Balm for that.   

[barbender]

Again, I am giving my perspective of trying to tell them apart from in the cab of my forwarder. Bigger stuff is no problem, but the 4"-6" stuff can be, because the aspen that grows with the Balm often has heart stain as well. I don't think my boss wants me getting out to sniff the wood, it's hard on production  ;D

[Clark]

Barbender, I think you're talking about that real pretty aspen that is  growing on ground that is a little too wet, it's only 6" in diameter and it's already growing Phellinus conks? Mmmmm, that is some nice stuff.  :D I sometimes have to look twice at the standing tree to make sure I've made the right call. I wouldn't want to ID that stuff after it is horizontal.

Clark

[barbender]

Barbender, I think you're talking about that real pretty aspen that is  growing on ground that is a little too wet, it's only 6" in diameter and it's already growing Phellinus conks? Mmmmm, that is some nice stuff.  :D I sometimes have to look twice at the standing tree to make sure I've made the right call. I wouldn't want to ID that stuff after it is horizontal.

Clark

     Yep, that's the stuff Clark :D Aspen and Balmy are typically no problem to distinguish. Typically the stuff I run into that is hard to tell apart is growing in windrows in white spruce plantations, in slightly soggy soil. So it is pretty isolated.

[Gearbox]

BB just open the door and bring it up close and snif it . Or just put in the pile and let the truck drivers sort it out . they haven't got anything else to do but sit in cab all day and drink coffee with Kieth . Gearbox

[SwampDonkey]

You must have easier going truckers down there. If it ain't sorted it won't be hauled. A returned load to the woods trains them quick. :D

[grassfed]

I don't have to sort it since it all goes to hardwood pulp. They changed the specs over the years. Back in the day there was Groundwood aspen and hardwood pulp they did not take Balm and I no one not cut it.

For the last several years it has been simply hardwood pulp and they take everything except maybe basswood. No sorting and they take any length 12-20. You can sell aspen sawlogs but the time sorting and bucking plus extra trucking makes it hard to justify for the little bit of extra money.

[SwampDonkey]

The veneer aspen here never paid for the sorting. Pulp price back then was almost as much and there was 100" pulp and tree length markets. If one had big wood, 100" market was better than cutting up small sticks, so often tree length was best deal in small stuff. Then that market died when the mill burnt. We've always had different markets in the past. Some mills back then didn't want birch in with maple-beech-ash, some still don't. And others limit percentages of aspen or birch in the load. Nothing is easy. Better hope the mixed load mill doesn't shut you off with 2000 cord on the ground. Then have to sort for a mill that wants sorting to move it, more importantly to be paid. : ;D