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PA Sawyers? Black Cherry?

Started by codyleviere, February 20, 2016, 02:08:48 PM

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codyleviere

Looking to talk to some local guys from my area, or anyone with info on cherry.. we have so much cherry around here its ridiculous. just wondering where to market it??

bkaimwood

I hear ya, Cody...once a prized lumber, seems to have gone away, or has low value anyway. I guess the demand is overseas, and that's where it goes? China, India, and so on?  Although surrounded by it, I don't go out of my way for it...only way I buy it is if its really nice, for firewood price...sorry to not be a ray of light in your dilemma, gleaming with great answers. Maybe someone else has some better info to help?
bk

codyleviere

The thing is, i used to work a a large scale local mill. They seemed to have no problem cutting large amounts of cherry and selling it. Yes i know tons of it was going over seas, but you'd think there would be some local demands. Whether it be wood workers or cabinet shops. But id be willing to ship it anywhere if the money is there.

flyboy16101

I'm from the new castle area while I can't speak for the rest of the state it seams that around here everyone has more cherry then they need. A few years ago it was in high demand and everyone stocked up when they could get it. Now that other woods are more popular most of the cabinate and furniture makers I know have more cherry then they know what to do with and is just cluttering up their shops. I can't seam to give it a way when I do cut some. Best advise I have is to leave it stand if you can and maybe in a few years cherry will be in demand again .
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Knute

I sold some lumber about a month ago, and the demand for cherry was very good here. Probably not as much cherry in this area.

YellowHammer

I'm not in Pa, but here in North Alabama, we have a relatively decent amount of saw log cherry, but not much large, high grade.  The low grade sells cheaply, the high grade retail lumber for about 4x. For example, a few weeks ago I was digging through a logyard and there must have been 300 cherry logs in a big stack.  They guy who works there only pulls me the best and next to that big stack was about 15 logs that were exceptional, veneer grade, not a knot in them.  Oddly enough, I've have customers explain to me that the "southern cherry" has fewer pitch pockets then Midwest or Northern cherry and is easier to work with.  I have no way to confirm or deny a that as I've only worked with our regional wood, and it is our best seller.
Here's a picture of some of our cherry taken in the summer.








YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

rjwoelk

What kind of money would one pay for a nice cherry log.
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YellowHammer

Quote from: rjwoelk on February 23, 2016, 12:47:32 AM
What kind of money would one pay for a nice cherry log.
It varies from $0.75 to $1 per bdft.  It takes weeding through a lot of logs to get these good ones.  Cherry has a lot of waste, from the wide sapwood which has to be filleted off, to the heart check, so the usable yield on big logs is much greater than the little guys.  I had a guy drive from North Carolina, many hundred miles, to buy curly cherry boards like these. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Greyhound

Kane is right in the center of PA Cherry.  You should have no problem selling it.  Here's a couple of nearby mills that specialize in cherry, especially high quality local:
Collins - Kane Hardwood (Kane, PA):  http://www.collinsco.com/locations/kane/
Horizon Wood Products (Kersey, PA):  http://www.horizonwood.com/

A little farther away are
Irion Lumber (Wellsboro, PA):  http://www.irionlumber.com/
Ron Jones Lumber (Union City, PA):  http://www.ronjoneshardwood.com/

Greyhound

I have bought finished cherry lumber from Horizon over the years and I have always been impressed.  They are really good people.  Family-owned and down to earth, but yet do some huge volumes of super high quality.

YoungStump

 When I took my lumber grading short course there were a few guys from Horizon there and I remember them saying they grade there lumber harder than the NHLA rules.

The problem with cherry right now is the market isn't real good, one of the lumber buyers warned us we might have a hard time getting an order for cherry esp if we didn't have any other species to offer along with the cherry. If it's an option might not be a bad idea to leave the trees standing and see if the market comes back.
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Ron Wenrich

I had talked to someone at the state about lumber and export about 10 years ago.  Back then, cherry was hot and veneer was $8/bf.  The reason was that the rainforest woods were being restricted in Europe.  The English used a lot of mahogany, and that was getting to be in short supply.  An alternative was black cherry, and they bought lots of it and drove the price up.  But, the exchange rate was much better than today.  That has made our lumber more expensive overseas.  Couple that with another recession in Europe and you can see why demand has dropped so much.  I imagine many of the market dynamics are still in place.

China is also not buying as much.  Back then, they were interested mainly in walnut.  My wife's cousin was in China last month.  He was amazed by the amount of housing that is built and unused.  His Chinese counterparts told him that the unused housing in China is enough to house India.  Infrastructure on steroids. 

We never sawed too much cherry.  What we did saw went mainly for casket lumber.  The better logs were sold.  We're not in good cherry country. 

The market will come back when either the demand rises or the supply falls.  The supply won't fall until those timber contracts are cut.  The state and feds will also have to limit their cutting, as you guys have a lot of public land in that sector of the state. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

codyleviere

Quote from: YellowHammer on February 22, 2016, 11:37:42 PM
I'm not in Pa, but here in North Alabama, we have a relatively decent amount of saw log cherry, but not much large, high grade.  The low grade sells cheaply, the high grade retail lumber for about 4x. For example, a few weeks ago I was digging through a logyard and there must have been 300 cherry logs in a big stack.  They guy who works there only pulls me the best and next to that big stack was about 15 logs that were exceptional, veneer grade, not a knot in them.  Oddly enough, I've have customers explain to me that the "southern cherry" has fewer pitch pockets then Midwest or Northern cherry and is easier to work with.  I have no way to confirm or deny a that as I've only worked with our regional wood, and it is our best seller.
Here's a picture of some of our cherry taken in the summer.





Those are some BEAUTIFUL logs. We do get alot like that but like you said its takes awhile picking though thousands of logs to find them. Those logs would have to cut tons of FAS. I think that would sell like hot cakes.

codyleviere

Quote from: rjwoelk on February 23, 2016, 12:47:32 AM
What kind of money would one pay for a nice cherry log.

That all depends. Cherry has a habit of looking flawless on the outside and hidden gum a knots on the inside. It takes  a seasoned pro to be a good log grader. Prices can very. Ive been talking to many local logging friends seeing what kind of deals they can get me. Once i get the numbers i can let you know!

codyleviere

Quote from: Greyhound on February 23, 2016, 09:30:21 PM
Kane is right in the center of PA Cherry.  You should have no problem selling it.  Here's a couple of nearby mills that specialize in cherry, especially high quality local:
Collins - Kane Hardwood (Kane, PA):  http://www.collinsco.com/locations/kane/
Horizon Wood Products (Kersey, PA):  http://www.horizonwood.com/

A little farther away are
Irion Lumber (Wellsboro, PA):  http://www.irionlumber.com/
Ron Jones Lumber (Union City, PA):  http://www.ronjoneshardwood.com/

Kane Hardwood is where I worked and was taught to grade lumber. They cut millions upon millions brd ft through there. I didnt burn any bridges so im hoping i can talking to the sales rep and see if he could help me out with the small orders they dont take that need filled!

codyleviere

Quote from: Greyhound on February 23, 2016, 09:35:44 PM
I have bought finished cherry lumber from Horizon over the years and I have always been impressed.  They are really good people.  Family-owned and down to earth, but yet do some huge volumes of super high quality.

Horizon is a great company. Believe it or not i helped build the owners house after it burnt down a few years back. Very honest hard working guys out there. He started off taking old but ends and now look where he is!!!!

codyleviere

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on February 24, 2016, 01:51:26 PM
I had talked to someone at the state about lumber and export about 10 years ago.  Back then, cherry was hot and veneer was $8/bf.  The reason was that the rainforest woods were being restricted in Europe.  The English used a lot of mahogany, and that was getting to be in short supply.  An alternative was black cherry, and they bought lots of it and drove the price up.  But, the exchange rate was much better than today.  That has made our lumber more expensive overseas.  Couple that with another recession in Europe and you can see why demand has dropped so much.  I imagine many of the market dynamics are still in place.

China is also not buying as much.  Back then, they were interested mainly in walnut.  My wife's cousin was in China last month.  He was amazed by the amount of housing that is built and unused.  His Chinese counterparts told him that the unused housing in China is enough to house India.  Infrastructure on steroids. 

We never sawed too much cherry.  What we did saw went mainly for casket lumber.  The better logs were sold.  We're not in good cherry country. 

The market will come back when either the demand rises or the supply falls.  The supply won't fall until those timber contracts are cut.  The state and feds will also have to limit their cutting, as you guys have a lot of public land in that sector of the state.

So do you think itd be better to let my trees grow until the industry wants the cherry?

Ron Wenrich

Depends if you want to try to game the market.  If you cut them now, you have a limited market.  Cherry has always been a top tier lumber with a fairly decent demand and value.  You don't remember when red oak was considered junk.  I do.  I also remember when maple was considered not worthwhile to cut. 

Considering past markets, walnut, cherry and white oak seem to be the ones that have had good marketability in the long term.  I don't think we'll see $8 veneer anytime soon, but who knows?  What's your other alternatives if you're not cutting cherry?  I never liked selling when markets are low unless it's a forced sale due to disease, bugs, fire or the like.  You'll appreciate in growth and market value increase. 
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

rooster 58

Bradford  wood products  and itl in Marienville

bakerhardwoods

If cherry prices are down, I would like to buy some logs.  How do I get decent diameter solid cherry in northeastern Indiana.  I don't have to have perfect logs, they can have branch cuts, I'm looking for logs to slab into live edge boards.

Any thoughts on how to find them?  Is it too far to haul a semi load from Pa.?  Are there mills closer to West Lafayette, IN who might sell the kind of logs I want to me?  I have the impression that most mills don't sell logs back down the system to someone like me, just up the system for export or veneer.

Thank you, Tim

WDH

From the Hardwood Market Report, the wholesale price for FAS Northern cherry, FOB sawmill (truck loaded at sawmill, so does not include freight), in tractor trailer load quantities, is 1900/MBF.
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Ron Wenrich

My experience with HMR prices is that you could get that price for a mixed load, usually 2 Com & btr.  When you get to straight truckloads of Sel & btr, you will start to pull a premium.   You can also find premiums for wide boards and long boards in straight loads.

With the markets being tight, you might see them drag their feet if loads have too much sapwood.  Small logs will yield too much sapwood and it gets hard to match for cabinet stock.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

codyleviere

Quote from: WDH on February 25, 2016, 07:39:51 AM
From the Hardwood Market Report, the wholesale price for FAS Northern cherry, FOB sawmill (truck loaded at sawmill, so does not include freight), in tractor trailer load quantities, is 1900/MBF.

Thats just about right for the 2 com and btr. The 1 com to fas can run up to 2500/MBF. I havent checked the reports in a long time. Thats just from when i was at kane hardwood

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