50acres of PA hardwwods:)

[bighoss550]

my wife and i are soon to inherit 50+ acres of land(wooded) and i find that i have no idea of what should be done. i am not concerned with overall worth, as i am with future worth. it hasnt been touched for a veeeerrry long time, if ever. there is almost no pine on it. all oak, maple, cherry, etc. and all quite big(over 3' DBH....some upwards of about 5'!!!)

what would ya'll do? i want to preserve it as much as possible, and i want to make money from it to purchase the surrounding land. i dont wanna just go in and cut all the profits outta it, but i dont wanna leave the overgrown state get worse.......
u guys are great and i value your opinions, thats why im askin for em.... i realise that having a professional look at it is a good idea, but i wanted your opinions, so i can go into the whole deal with a very good idea of what should be done, so im not taken by the money mongers in this business:D

[Kirk_Allen]

First and foremost would be to hire a Certified Forester.  Preferably one that works for the state and not one that works for a particular logging firm.  

After their evaluation you will have a much better idea of what you have and the best way to improve on it so that your kids may one day inherit what you have inherited.

  

[Buzz-sawyer]

There is such a thing as too big, like over ripe fruit.
In hardwood oak/hickory forests.
I looked over a stand today that is almost a total loss, due to waiting too long to cut em.
Not saying that is your case, but eventually they will get rotten in the middle, get the tops blown out, or blow over............I was sad to see the state of this woods today, it was a former neighbors woods, I am thinking of trying a salvage cut to save what we can save............
In my state a state forester will come out mark your trees and give you a bdft estimate and price/value range ALL FOR FREE they also give you a contract form, recomend loggers and give you information to keep you from getting ripped of or expecting too much....for free

[bighoss550]

there are a few that are too big, but there doesnt look to be any dying or infected trees on the whole place:) its mostly in the 24" range, and it almost makes ur mouth water at the thought of a stand of 24" veneer cherry covering an acre or 2:D

i will have a forester look at it, but i just wanted a few thoughts from the forum

[jrdwyer]

For a well qualfied independent forester, go to www.acf-foresters.com and click "Find a Forester."

I have to caution you about "free" state forestry services. Some state foresters (extension foresters, service foresters, etc.) have very little experience in measuring and selling timber but they still perform some or all of these services for landowners. Tree tallies produced by such individuals can be grossly inaccurate, usually underscaling the standing timber volume by 20%-50%. Also, state foresters usually lack the knowledge of who pays the most for standing timber and who does a good or poor job of logging. In the end, landowners who think they are getting a good deal from "free" forestry services can end up with less money than possible and/or a poor outcome from logging.

I don't mean to imply that all government foresters are incompetent or provide poor advice. Their forest management  recommendations will probably be sound and their knowledge of ecosystems will also likely be good. But when it comes to  meauring trees, marketing timber, providing effective contracts, and timber harvest inspections, an independent forestry consultant is your best bet.

Just be sure to convey to a prospective forester your short and long-term objectives and also what you feel the forest should look like after logging. The forester will then look at the woods form your side and give several recommendaitons based on the condition and marketability of the resource.

For background, I have worked as both a state service forester (6 years) and as an independent forestry consultant (7 years to date).

Best of luck with your forest.

[Buzz-sawyer]

I dont understand the heavy negative spin on state foresters Were you that poor at estimating when you were a state forester, or was it your co workers?
I know of several poor private foresters that charge 15% for working against the land owner.....
I have found ours to TOTALLY competent and professional in thier estimates when I go out to estimate a job..... :P 8)

Hoss
measuring and estimating trees is NOT rocket science by any means......a person of reasonable intelligence can measure count , identify and estimate a woodlot. I have some good information for individuals to use as a guide if you are interested.

It sounds like you want to see bout veneer, that is a little more specific...and you need to find buyer specific requirements out  ;)

[bighoss550]

thanks for the insight:) thats what i am after.... BTW, i will pay a good forester to take his time in my woods, and when we are finished, i will be the only one runnin a saw or equipment in my woods:) and a close friend is gettin into the millin business full time, so we may even mill it ourselves. so no matter what, it will be as i want it when im done..... but i suspect the proper management will be an ongoing process......
thats why i need insight before i step in a pile of crap and get over my head....

u guys are excellent! i have learned alot in only a month!:D

[Buzz-sawyer]

 ;)

[jrdwyer]

Yes, I was quite green and most likely poor at estimating timber volumes when I began in state forestry right out of college. But as state service foresters, we (myself and collegues at the district office) did only ocassional marking jobs (still the same today) and had little or no feedback from the buyers as to final log scale versus tree scale. In addition, we handed the landowner a buyers list (which was often incomplete or out of date) and a sample contract and said good luck.  If the woods got cut as marked (and it often didn't), we considered it sucessful as far as forest management.This process did not give the landowner all the tools necessary to accurately appraise the value of the woods or find the best possible logger/timber buyer for his or her woods. But it was free or close to free for the landowner.

But marking and measuring trees everyday as a consultant has made me quite good. I know what to expect, what timber will bring, and how to get it all done for my client. The client gets accurate information and knows that I have agressively sought the highest price for the marked trees. They get full payment before any trees are cut and only then do I get paid. Plus, as part of the ACF code of ethics, I only receive compenstion from my client (no end of year gifts or kickbacks from timber buyers or mills). All of this is way above and beyond what any state forestry agency provides. The old adage " There is no such thing as a free lunch" correctly applies here.

I forgot to mention that an independent forestry consultant can also be hired to do an appraisal and establish a timber basis when property is inherited. This basis can then be used to reudce taxes paid on the sale of timber later. Here is a good website on the issue: www.timbertax.org.

[Ron Scott]

The following actions are recommended for ownership of your new woodland.

1) Have a "certified" profesional forester establish your "timber basis" effective at the time of ownership. This should be done for tax purposes and should be done by a certified forester for acceptance by IRS.

jrdwyer has provided a good tax link above with some good advice.

2) Have all your property lines surveyed and recorded by a registered land surveyor if the bpundary lines are not already evident and established by a registered survey. This is your first best investment in the property.

3) Seek out (get references) and have a recommended professional consulting forester or your local Conservation District Forester complete a Forest Landowner Stewardship Plan for your property. The Plan should dertermine the management practices and activities needed to meet your objectives for the property.

4) Work with the professional consulting forester for ongoing professional advice and management. A "good" independent consultant can double or tripple your land values in most cases.

[hosslog]

Bighoss, Have you ever heard of Firth Maple Products in Spartansburg? He does a lot of TSI work that you are looking for.He has a web site if you are interested. If you contact him tell him that Ira sent you.

[bighoss550]

thanks:) i will as soon as i need him...... i have heard of firth.

u arent even an hour from me! thats up by union city right? we used to play football against them:) lakeview HS, we sucked pretty bad when i played:):D

[Ron Wenrich]

My 2 cents is to get more than one opinion.  There are a few good consultants in your area.  You can get a list from the state.  But, be careful.  There is no licensing or certification of foresters in our state.  Anyone can call themselves a forester.  No experience necessary.

The state may be able to give you a couple of days of free work per year.  If you're doing the work yourself, that may be all you need.  Their work is very good, and it is unbiased.

There may also be foresters available at the extension office.  Check at your county ag extension run by Penn State.

[hosslog]

Ayuh Sparty is a just a little south east of UC. I haven't been down your way in a couple of years. We worked in a big blow down up in Hell's Kitchen.

[Sawyerfortyish]

I agree with Buzz-sawyers post about being to big or to old.I'm cutting a stand of oak right now that is up to 38"dbh and the bigger trees are not good most have bad butts. Something else to think of when cutting big trees the bigger they are the more mess they make when they hit the ground.Sometimes you have to cut some young trees out of the way to fall the big ones otherwise you get a real twisted broken up mess. This should be kept in mind when marking trees to cut.

[Ron Wenrich]

You can't go out and make a blanket statement that big trees have more defect.  I marked a stand that had 36" red oak that was only 75 years old.  I've also seen trees in the 26"+ range that were in quite good shape.  You have to go on a tree by tree basis.  Size is not an idicator of age!

I've also seen trees that were smaller (12-16") that should be removed before the larger trees.  That's because they are usually the same age as the larger trees and will not respond well to release.  There is absolutely no reason to cut trees that are large just to release smaller, same-aged trees.  I once did a core sample on a 4" tree and found it to be 40 years old.

As Buzz says, measuring trees ain't rocket science.  But, management is a damned site harder.  To go into a stand without sufficient data is flying by the seat of your pants.  There's a ton of work done without sufficient data.

[bighoss550]

well ron, when im ready ill just give ya a call:) id love to have a fellow FF member do the thinkin :D and i have trouble trustin many of the guys around here :-/