Cat 318 versus Detroit 353

[Trapper John]

I am thinking of buying another engine for my Belsaw, the Duetz I bought has turned into an expensive nightmare. I am looking at a Cat 318 with clutch and a Detroit 353 without.  Anyone know if you can still get parts for a Cat 318 and how would the fuel consumption compare between the two engines?  I know the Cat is really old and the Detroit is really loud but the price is right for either one of them.  Both had been running OK when removed from a crane and a asphalt roller.  Both have variable speed governors.

[ozarkgem]

don't know about the Cat but I have a 353 Det. pretty low maintenance and dirt simple. Parts are cheap also.

[bandmiller2]

Trapper, I ran my first circular mill with a 318 Cat. The included clutch is the deal maker as they are very expensive and hard to find as there are several different sizes and flywheels. The 318 is an ideal mill engine slow turning a lot of torque and will run forever with little care. My cat came out of a crane also that is easy duty for a diesel. Those were the diesels used in the old Cat road graders and D-6 dozers. Frank C.

[longtime lurker]

Theres a reason so many mills are/were fitted with 2 stroke Detroits - they work well for that application.

Not that a D318 was a bad motor, I spent a while on an old 12 grader that had one and it was - except for the pony motor start - a gem of a thing all things considered. And its got a clutch fitted which might be a deal breaker depednign on what you've already got offf the Deutz.

Parts will be easier for the Detroit, but both of them are pretty reliable units if in good condition so parts become kinda moot. Figure minimum 15k hours between overhauls on the Cat: Much as I hate the pony motor starts, they do significantly increase engine lifespan. Direct start will knock that back to 10k, but thats still a lot of sawdust.
Go with which looks to have been loved more, and keep giving it love.

[sealark37]

Having worked as an off-bearer on mills with both engines, I would choose the Cat just because it is quieter than the Detroit.  The older Cat and International power units were the class engines for a circle mill.  The Detroit was often chosen because it was cheaper to purchase new.    Regards, Clark

[ozarkgem]

Theres a reason so many mills are/were fitted with 2 stroke Detroits - they work well for that application.

Not that a D318 was a bad motor, I spent a while on an old 12 grader that had one and it was - except for the pony motor start - a gem of a thing all things considered. And its got a clutch fitted which might be a deal breaker depednign on what you've already got offf the Deutz.

Parts will be easier for the Detroit, but both of them are pretty reliable units if in good condition so parts become kinda moot. Figure minimum 15k hours between overhauls on the Cat: Much as I hate the pony motor starts, they do significantly increase engine lifespan. Direct start will knock that back to 10k, but thats still a lot of sawdust.
Go with which looks to have been loved more, and keep giving it love.

why would direct start shorten the life span of the engine?

[Trapper John]

I assume the pony motor will warm the engine so that when the engine starts the oil is already warmed and lubricates better.

[ozarkgem]

I assume the pony motor will warm the engine so that when the engine starts the oil is already warmed and lubricates better.
[/quote
Never knew anyone to let the pony motor run that long. Just curious.

[dgdrls]

What happened with the Deutz??

Between the Cat and the DD I would go DD,  easier parts and service.
By chance is the DD a turbo model? 

Best
D

[ladylake]

 Back when I was trucking Detroit diesels ran fine until overhaul time, after overhaul they never lasted long, plus the horrible noise. I get the Cat.  Steve

[longtime lurker]

why would direct start shorten the life span of the engine?

90% of wear on a direct start diesel occurs in the first 30 seconds of startup - oils in the sump not lubricating bearings. Cold starts when they've been sitting are worse obviously.

With a pony, you start the pony at idle, then rev the pony up once it's warm and the main turns until it's warm enough to fire. Result is the main always has full oil pressure before it fires which greatly reduces wear. 20000 hours between rebuilds was considered normal for a pony start Cat.

Bigger direct start engines of modern manufacture will often have an electric oil lift pump fitted that gets engaged pre start to get the same result.

[plowboyswr]

Theres a reason so many mills are/were fitted with 2 stroke Detroits - they work well for that application.

Not that a D318 was a bad motor, I spent a while on an old 12 grader that had one and it was - except for the pony motor start - a gem of a thing all things considered. And its got a clutch fitted which might be a deal breaker depednign on what you've already got offf the Deutz.

Parts will be easier for the Detroit, but both of them are pretty reliable units if in good condition so parts become kinda moot. Figure minimum 15k hours between overhauls on the Cat: Much as I hate the pony motor starts, they do significantly increase engine lifespan. Direct start will knock that back to 10k, but thats still a lot of sawdust.
Go with which looks to have been loved more, and keep giving it love.

why would direct start shorten the life span of the engine?

Think Oil pressure. With the pony motor you get the motor to rolling and then kick the fuel to the diesel so when the diesel fires the bearings have already got oil in them. Direct start the oil pressure hasn't come up when the first cylinder hits. If you've ever fired up a diesel  engine that didn't have glow plugs or a block heater on a cold morning  and heard that deep rattling in the crankcase as it fires up then as the oil pressure come up it goes away. Same thing.

[Trapper John]

What happened with the Deutz??

Between the Cat and the DD I would go DD,  easier parts and service.
By chance is the DD a turbo model? 


Best
D

Thanks for the input guys.  The Deutz was running fine but I soon noticed an injector pump was leaking.  I replaced the pump with a new one but the directions were not all that clear and I installed it wrong.  When I started it, it ran away full throttle and I had to yank the fuel line to stop it.  When I pulled the new pump I found it was a goner.   I think the fuel rack is damaged and I am waiting for an engineer at Memo Corp to discuss whether I should attempt to replace the fuel rack.  I have learned that not many mechanics have Deutz experience and the engines are hard to work on and the parts are very expensive.  Not an engine for bush Alaska.  Unfortunately the barge line is not accepting any more freight (the river freezes) so I could not get the Cat or DD out here until next spring.   My only option for the near future  is getting the Deutz fixed or getting a DD453 fixed.  The 453 has been flooded, the governor, blower and starter are gone so we are looking at some serious work and parts and I have never done it before.  I might be willing to try it if I can find cheap used parts.  I would really like to get sawing and finish a house I started.

[Trapper John]

More bad news.  The engineer at Memo Corp advised not trying to replace the fuel rack on the Deutz.  Major project and you had better know what you are doing.  He thought their injection pump system was a design flaw and he has seen the early death of a lot of Deutz engines because of it.  It's a shame, this engine with 1900 hours was hardly even broken in but it is now basically scrap metal and scrap metal is worth nothing out here.  Oh well, live and learn but it was an expensive mistake.  This sawmill project might kill me or drive me insane.  In any case it's getting very depressing.

[Bert]

Thats no good. Its hard enough sometimes to get parts as it is despite freezing rivers. I would definitely go with the detroit if you can source a clutch for it. They are rock solid for mills. I run over 30 cylinders of detroits in my milling/ logging operation and only had one die due to a cracked block and that probably wasnt its fault
.

[repmma]

If only an automotive manufacturer would put centrifugal filters and prelube pumps on all engines as standard equipment and they would probably last an extra 100k miles!  Can't afford to do that though...

[Kbeitz]

If only an automotive manufacturer would put centrifugal filters and prelube pumps on all engines as standard equipment and they would probably last an extra 100k miles!  Can't afford to do that though...

Some race car drivers do use the prelube pumps on there engines.
I have been wanting to buy a centrifugal filter off E-bay but they are big $$$
I got around 300 gal of oil that I want to clean up...

[ozarkgem]

If only an automotive manufacturer would put centrifugal filters and prelube pumps on all engines as standard equipment and they would probably last an extra 100k miles!  Can't afford to do that though...

Some race car drivers do use the prelube pumps on there engines.
I have been wanting to buy a centrifugal filter off E-bay but they are big $$$
I got around 300 gal of oil that I want to clean up...

Didn't some of the old Mack trucks use centrifugal filters?

[Kbeitz]

If only an automotive manufacturer would put centrifugal filters and prelube pumps on all engines as standard equipment and they would probably last an extra 100k miles!  Can't afford to do that though...

Some race car drivers do use the prelube pumps on there engines.
I have been wanting to buy a centrifugal filter off E-bay but they are big $$$
I got around 300 gal of oil that I want to clean up...

Didn't some of the old Mack trucks use centrifugal filters?

That I would really like to know...

[bandmiller2]

I like Detroit Diesels, repairing them has kept a roof over my head for 50 years. Theirs a big difference between the 53 series and the 71 series. I know many here have run or seen a circular mill run with a 353 can be done but the 71 series would have more moxie. My 318 Cat. had a pony engine and would never fail to start in the coldest weather. The old Cat will just loaf along, a joy to listen to. Detroits don't use glow plugs and can be testy to start in cold weather especially in the far north with no block heater. Frank C.

[dgdrls]

If only an automotive manufacturer would put centrifugal filters and prelube pumps on all engines as standard equipment and they would probably last an extra 100k miles!  Can't afford to do that though...

Some race car drivers do use the prelube pumps on there engines.
I have been wanting to buy a centrifugal filter off E-bay but they are big $$$
I got around 300 gal of oil that I want to clean up...

Didn't some of the old Mack trucks use centrifugal filters?

That I would really like to know...

As I understand "newer"Macks use one called a Centrimax system.

D

[Kbeitz]

Something else for me to be watchen for at the junkyard...

[pineywoods]

Centrifugal filters, I would like to build one, any ideas ?

[bandmiller2]

Centrifugal oil filters on a truck is a new one for me. I have seen a lot of the old Luberfiners canisters mounted out on the fenders. They were an add on partial filter with thick fine media used in conjunction with the standard filter, they did help keep the oil clean. You don't see much of them anymore. Frank C.

[ozarkgem]

I was thinking in the 60's or 70's on the Mack truck. But that is just what several guys told me. I never saw one in person. I have seen them on ships though.