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Author Topic: Dave's Bandsaw Mill  (Read 3698 times)

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Offline AncientTom

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 05:53:52 PM »
I know this thread is a year old but it is relevant to the questions that I need answered. So, I hope that nobody objects to my hijacking this conversation instead of starting a new thread for the same. I am, as you did at the end of 1916, looking at all the knowledge that I can Google and YouTube before I get started on my build.

Considering post build alignment, wear and tear...generally, adjustments should be linear in the axis of their action, so as not to provide a rotational or tangential component.  Trying to align or fine tune is much easier when the adjustment has only a single component of movement relative to the mechanism being adjusted

Man that is deep. I will have to think about that. :D
I think what he is trying to say is having an axle mount that is hinged at the top of your mounting plate for your tensioning adjustment would also have an effect on the vertical height of your wheel as you try to set tension, not to mention that any slop in the hinge would also throw off your other alignment axises.

I am planning to use a 2" tube sliding inside a 2-1/2" tube for my tensioning adjustment. These steel tubings' dimensions are not exact and so I am anticipating a lot of slop which is to my advantage. With the added space between the tube walls, I do not think that rust will be a problem, especially if I maintain a coat of rust inhibitor on the sliding pieces. I also intend to use a couple of lateral clamping bolts to the stationary outer tube to remove the slop and hold the tensioning slider firmly in place. On the axle mounting surface, I will add what ever scheme I finally decide on to set the toe and camber of the wheel.

My first concern is about Surplus Center's 18.75" O.D. pulleys being used for band wheels. I came here looking to find whether or not a 5/8" urethane v-belt, having the crowned wheel surface being only half that of the blade width, would be wide enough for a 1-1/4" sawmill blade . If this is okay, what effect of the tension riding on only half the blade width have on the blade's longevity? Also along this line, the question of if I need a wheel surface width at least that of the blade width, what effect does the tensioning load have on the blade's teeth holding their position?

My second concern is that of flanged guide rollers. Is there a problem with using a roller that is longer than the band width and allowing the teeth to ride across the surface of the roller or should the flanged rollers be made to match the blade that will be used so that when properly positioned on the blade, the teeth are extending beyond the roller not riding on it?

Any advice or comments (other than derogatory) will be appreciated.

Offline 1rustytree

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 08:04:10 PM »


I don't know if you saw this on you tube , but he is using those Surplus Center 18 3/4"  pulleys. I am using the same, but just recently changed over from tires. So I do not have a lot of experience with them but they are great so far. The band rides with the blade tips just over the edge.  I emailed him to see what size v belts to use (58 or 59, I would be more exact but the mill is 60 miles away) and he said he has successfully cut quite a bit with that setup along with the Cooks 1 1/4" guides.  If that link doesn't work I think his channel is Southeastern Ohio Honeybees. Good Luck. Andy

Offline pineywoods

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 11:11:03 AM »
19 inch pulleys with B57 Vbelts been working nicely on woodmizer mills since the 1980's. BUT, not just any B57's. Need a flat top, not crowned. Goodyear and browning among others make them. I get mine from woodmizer. You definitely do NOT want the teeth on the blade to touch ANYTHING. Messes up the set on one side = diving in the cut. Never fooled with the urethane belts, most guys who try them wind up going back to standard V belts. They are normally used on shop bandsaws with 1/4 inch blades and nowhere near the tension you will be runing with 1 1/4 bands. Band tensioner, go hydraulic and be done with it. A ram out of a cheap floor jack works great. Plumb a 3000 psi gauge for a tension indicator. Look in Arnold113's gallery for pics
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Offline AncientTom

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2018, 02:13:33 PM »
You definitely do NOT want the teeth on the blade to touch ANYTHING. Messes up the set on one side = diving in the cut...
I assume that this comment is in answer to my question about guide rollers. This is what I thought, that the guide rollers have to match the blade so that the flange would limit the backward thrust of the blade being pushed into the log to keep the teeth from riding back on the roller. I have found nothing across the Internet that mentions this and in fact those commercial suppliers of mills and parts don't even address this.

... BUT, not just any B57's. Need a flat top, not crowned. Goodyear and browning among others make them...  ... Never fooled with the urethane belts, most guys who try them wind up going back to standard V belts. They are normally used on shop bandsaws with 1/4 inch blades and nowhere near the tension you will be running with 1 1/4 bands.
If the saw band needs a flat surface to travel across, what keeps the blade tracking in position on the wheels and how will tracking adjustments of the wheels be effective? With all that I have read, the whole point of a crowned wheel is so that when the blade is tensioned, the blade will attempt to track to where the most force is being applied which is the middle of the wheel. The best tracking adjustment would be to set the tracking to where the blade wants to ride with it's back edge aligning to the back edge of the wheel. I don't think that this would  be possible if the band were riding on a non-crowned wheel. To this end, my thought is that the compression of the surface of the belt when the blade is tensioned will be less in the center of the belt where the belt is thickest causing a sort of a crowning effect. Looking closely at the grooved urethane tires, it looks like the center ridge is slightly taller than the outer ridges to cause a crowning effect. I may be wrong. I'm still looking for definitive and not so obvious answers to these questions.

The reason that I am considering urethane tires is that in order to force regular v-belts onto the wheel, they are just slightly larger than the wheel and they protrude out of the wheel when the wheels are turning. It is said that this effect adds a small amount of instability to the blade while it is cutting. The urethane belts are more elastic to easily be stretched onto the wheel. They are made to fit the wheel groove without any slack. They are created with the purpose of eliminating the problems that exist with using regular v-belts. They are also grooved to help with sawdust buildup on the wheel surface. I have seen in countless videos, this buildup that occurs while sawing which has to be occasionally removed from the surfaces of regular v-belts. My one concern about the urethane belts is the fact that they are elastic and as a result of this elasticity, they might have a mushy surface that may be to soft for proper band tensioning. There are no complaints that I can find across the Internet about this but still, I have yet to have any experience with sawing with a band saw mill so I will be experimenting with all of this.

This mill build will be my first experience in sawing logs so all of my comments here is conjecture and should be construed as an invite to all to point out any misunderstandings that I have and fill in the gaps to anything that I missed.

One more thing. You suggest to use a hydraulic ram with a 3000 PSI gauge to set tension. My head is swimming about using 1000-1500 PSI tensioning to the saw band as it has been suggested. I have no doubt that the blade would snap long before you get that much pressure applied to it. One of the commercial mill manufacturers in there setup video specifies 35 foot pounds of tension for their mill and blade for best sawing. Whereas PSI is a pressure per square inch surface area measurement and foot pounds is a linear measurement, it seems that ft/lbs is a more practical measurement for blade tensioning.

While I am a person, when planning a build like this, will tend to go off the deep end of trying to think of all those things that I would like to see in mine, I have to keep reminding myself of the applicable adage, K.I.S.S. All that candy can be eventually added after I get the basic build running. I view hydraulic tensioning as the cherry on top and the least needed of all the options that I would like to incorporate into the build such as log loading, turning, auto feeding, track extensions, trailering, etc.

Offline Pabene

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2018, 04:12:02 PM »
About blade tension design.
There is a study performed by a university in Sweden about the best blade tension design for band saws. Maybe it is late to inform you about it in this thread but here it is: The best is to have a spring as the closest component to the wheel bearing assy. It doesn’t matter what you have to preload the spring, hydraulic, screw or a lever. The spring is more forgiving for sudden happenings like when a piece of bark is pinched between the blade and wheel. If the saw frame is stiff, as I hope it is, it is important to allow the tension function to react quickly for such things.
I have a log band saw with a hydraulic, totally stiff (ridged) tension design.
The saw frame is week so in case of such happenings, the saw frame has to take the chock. Some time it ends up in a deformed frame and I have to readjust the blade tracking.
I think Woodmizer has an even better design for this function. It is an air filled pillow, close to the bearing unit, as a last “link” in the “tension design chain”.
This is my opinion, based on hard experiances.
The reccomended blade tension from many manufactures is about 10% of the tension when the blade would breake just by the tension.

Offline AncientTom

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2018, 06:51:54 PM »
Thanks, Pabene, for this. I will now consider incorporating a spring in the tensioning adjustment. when I purchase my blades, I will ask the manufacturer what they suggest for tension on their blades.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2018, 08:03:44 PM »
You might want to look for one of these off E-bay...
You want around 12,000lbs to 15,000 of strain on an 1-1/2" band.

 

 
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Offline Cutting Edge

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2018, 07:38:50 AM »


You want around 12,000lbs to 15,000 of strain on an 1-1/2" band.

 


Where did you get this information from ?

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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2018, 07:40:35 AM »


You want around 12,000lbs to 15,000 of strain on an 1-1/2" band.

 


Where did you get this information from ?

It's all over the WWW. Some places quote 25-30,000 .

One read up... I hope it's OK to post this link here.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?251853-bandsaw-tension-guidelines
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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2018, 08:00:10 AM »
12K-15K on an 1-1/2" wide would make for one SLOW cutting headrig.  The "specs" you posted would be lucky to keep a 1-1/4", .035" blade stable in the cut.

There are a couple hobby level band headrigs that are lucky to produce 16K of tension on a band just before the main frame/beam begins to succumb to deformation.  The lumber produced can/is a direct reflection of this.  Just because it resembled a board, doesn't mean that it is what most would consider a usable piece of lumber.

To proof is in the product and low blade tension, regardless of the brand of sawmill, IMO is a crutch to cover up for other shortcomings.  Most reputable blade brands can sustain near twice the tensions that you posted and have a reasonable expected life span with multiple sharpenings.

The weld quality is absolutely critical running at higher tensions.


But if it's  all over the WWW ("12K-16K tension"), it must be true  ???

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Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2018, 09:23:08 AM »
Lenox recommends up to 30,000 PSI.
Wood Mizer says 12,500-15,000.
Woodland Mills says 20,000 -30,000
Norwood says 12,500-15,000 PSI.
Hudson says 12,500-15,000 PSI .
Lumber mate says 12,500-15,000 PSI.
TimberKing  says 12,500-15,000 PSI.


Gotta get the info some where...

But if it's  all over the WWW ("12K-16K tension"), it must be true  ???
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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2018, 12:33:33 PM »
Kbeitz,

The majority of recommended tensions you gave, are for manufactured sawmills.  May or may not apply to certain models or even DIY/homemade machines.

I will address one correction, only because the image below is an excellent example.

W-M's recommendations are based on what the machine itself is able to produce and have durability/longevity over it's expected lifetime of components. 

Example:  An LT10 is not built heavy enough to sustain tensions that an LT40 is capable of.  Two completely different machines. 

This information is straight from W-M's instructions for their strain gauge, Part# WMBTG.  LT10, LT15 and LT35 are not listed, so this helps with an approximation of time period.  (Unknown date of actual publication)  Certain models now have more robust components and consistently run in excess of 22,000+ lbs of strain with no issue of a reduction in life of consumables nor blade life.




As you and others can see, there is an extremely broad range of recommended tension, which varies by machine and blade combination.

The reason for posting this is to helps others that are reading this information in the future.  The machine a person has, may not be able to reach those numbers due to the construction (might be a homemade sawmill) and self-destructs (12k-16K).  Or possibly a new owner of an LT70 running literally 1/2 what the machine NEEDs to have a properly tensioned blade (24k-30K).

Again, many blades can exceed what the machine is capable of producing.  Other blades are not, without causing issues with curvature, camber, etc.

Hope this helps.   ;)



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Online JB Griffin

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2018, 01:06:33 PM »
Imo, 12-15k lbs of strain is inadequate for sawing at a decent feed speed.
I routinely run the pressure on my 40 at 2800psi up to 3000psi, thats around 23.5k of strain, thats where it will cut the best,  with no shortening of blade life. At work I have the blade tension at around 27k pounds of strain on the blade and have used as much as 35k lbs of strain. I would NEVER use only 12k of strain for several reasons.  1) lack of blade control,  with that little tension you will push the blade around like a wet noodle. 2) inability to use a decent feed speed, see #1. 3) loss of cut quality see #1. 4) loss of blade life see #2.
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1.8 million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator and counting.

Offline Kbeitz

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2018, 01:25:39 PM »
I agree 100 percent... When I was building my mill I just googled
for information and thats what I found. After experimenting with
different settings I found what was best for my mill but I used what
I found to give me a starting base.
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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2018, 01:39:45 PM »
I just don't want to see inaccurate info touted as fact.
If someone was to read this and build a mill that can't handle the tension required to cut flat accurate lumber that would give us sawyers a bad rap and people would think we don't know what we are talking about.

There is a fb page for sawmills that is already FULL of misinformation and people don't know what is true and won't listen to the people who actually know because we don't post pictures and comment all the time, we're too busy sawing for that.
2000 LT40hyd remote 33hp Kubota, 160 Prentice, Frick 2 saw gang edger, Wright W-37 ABG, Suffolk dual tooth setter, Cat claw single tooth setter,'96 F-250 7.3 PSD 4x4, CS-590 Echo, MF 20c, M681 Memo.

1.8 million bdft sawn with a Baker Dominator and counting.

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2018, 02:08:42 PM »
I don't see it as inaccurate at all... You should build your mill to tolerate
the tension needed that the blade company's state. So for a 1/1/4"
blade that should be around 12,500-15,000 PSI . I'm thinking to get
the best cut you need this tension.
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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2018, 04:09:00 PM »
The recommended tension for a blade is measured in one part. If you transform that tension to  the force you need to reach that tension, you then have to take that force times two, to see the real load on the wheel bearings. It is also that force as want to “bend” your saw frame. It is also just the static load. When the saw is running there are dynamic load as you have to add in your design.
I have a “tension meter” to check my blade tension in my mill. The blade prolongs about 1mm/1000mm for the tension the blade manufacturer recommends.
I like the possibility to read the real blade tension when I am sawing. If you have a ”hydraulic jack” to pre load your tension spring, it is good to have a pressure gauge in the system. If the blade heats up more than normal it prolongs more and the tension drops.

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2018, 04:41:38 PM »
That's what I did. I took a hollow hydraulic cylinder and put a pressure gauge
on it.

 

 

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2018, 04:57:55 PM »

 Without any numbers all I know is if I tension my mill much more that what TK recommends it starts breaking bands fast. Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

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Re: Dave's Bandsaw Mill
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2018, 10:35:09 AM »
Wow again on blade tension. With all these new posts on tensioning, I had to re-think what is going on here about blade tensioning being measured in PSI and how it relates to the actual stress that is applied to the blade. I looked at more posts on this subject and found a couple of excellent videos. Within the hour of watching them, I got quite an education.
Bandsaw tensioning: 
Bandsaw setup: 

I had decided that I would just use the way that Woodland Mills tensions their mill blade. They suggest using a torque wrench to a tension on their tensioning screw of 35 foot/lbs. That sounded like a nominally good pull on the blade, so that's what decided to go with. When I saw the 5 digit PSI specs on blade tension, It still blows me away as to how a thin saw blade could take that much stress and not break. But, If that is what it is, then that is what it is. It took me a long time to wrap my head around this but I then started looking at all the variables that had to be plugged into a formula to calculate the actual stress applied to the blade. After doing the math, I can see how Woodland Mills came up with a 35 lb/ft setting on their mill and that it could actually be applying 15,000 PSI to the blade.

After watching the excellent presentation by Carter Products on setting up a band saw, I now have another question to deal with before starting my build. How much offset should I apply to my drive wheel? (as mentioned in the video as all manufacturers do)


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