iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

ATV Logging suggestion

Started by johndoesti, February 07, 2017, 10:59:26 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

johndoesti

What kind of ATV should I get and why? (I'll ask a trailer specific question once I'm done with my initial research).

  • Purpose: Cut wood to build log cabin, sheds, fences, etc. + own firewood over the first 1-2y week-ends. Then sell some wood, again over the week-ends when I feel like it ;) I'm not looking for another full-time job.
  • Land : 322 acres. I've attached a topo map below. Elevation in meters, so elevation gain on the land is approx. 550'. There's no forest roads as per say. The ATV needs to be able to climb with a good load.
  • Wood : Mostly mature forest, 80 acres is old growth but I'll not touch these trees until they hit the ground.

Thanks all

upnut

First of all, welcome to Forestry Forum! Not knowing your familiarity with atv's let's start with basics: 4x4 is almost a must, along with enough power for grunt work. High and low range drive-train would be helpful, and power steering is a great aid. A 2" hitch receiver will be stout and versatile, and rack capacity along with a winch are important. That being said, you might be better served by a side by side UTV, and I would recommend the Kubota RTV-X 1120D, which would be a real workhorse for your situation. Good Luck!

Scott B.
I did not fall, there was a GRAVITY SURGE!

sprucebunny

Welcome !

I've used my Honda ATV Rubicon 500 to tow good size loads with a log arch.
If you are concerened about steepness, tracks lower the drive ratio slightly and give extra traction. It's very heavy duty for it's size. I like the narrow width and recommend a solid rear axle.
I've also towed a small dump trailer with a yard of stone in it which is about 3500 pounds.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

johndoesti


  • Upnet : I could get convinced but I thought the ATV would be more "agile" in the woods...The Kubota has a towing capacity of 1,300lbs and some ATVs can pull even more. So what other criteria did you base your recommendation on?
  • sprucebunny : that's quite a load for a 500, isn't it? What's the heaviest log you pulled with your arch approx?
In general, what kind of HP / towing capacity, etc. should I be looking at?

Many thanks

furltech

i found that a solid rear axle instead of a independent rear end helps a lot.i logged quite a bit with a yamaha grizzly and a t-rex trailer.Out of all the gadgets and crap i have bought over the years and i usually buy used wore out junk  8) i broke down and bought that trailer and i love it.i took off the hand winch and added an electric one works very well for what it is .

sprucebunny

I've pulled tree length balsam 2 at a time 11" DBH and red maple that probably weighed 2000 pounds. Have never put much of a strain on it with the arch but the crushed stone adventure was pushing the limits  :D

They don't usually rate them by HP but by cc. 500 or 650 or what ever you can get with a solid rear axle.

I've probably dragged more wood into the yard with the Honda than with the more expensive and bigger things that I have  ::)
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

upnut

Johndoesti- I was thinking the box on a Kubota(or other utv) would be handy for hauling gear/supplies etc. when covering 322 acres and no roads, having the proper stuff with you "out back" could be very important! I spent a few days in the Upper Peninsula with a buddy and his diesel Kubota, thing is built like a tank and sips fuel. I haul all my firewood with a Yamaha Grizzly 350, never have felt underpowered, but skidding poles with it might test its limits, a logging arch would be the ticket for that operation.



Scott B.

Oh, I agree with the solid rear axle, the independent rear suspension on the one I drove under load seemed squishy....
P.S. If you are working alone an atv is great, if you plan on helpers a utv would be better with that bench seat...
I did not fall, there was a GRAVITY SURGE!

celliott

I think you need to narrow your choices down to side by side UTV or regular ATV. A regular ATV is not nearly as wide as a UTV and will be more nimble in the woods. A UTV will have more load capacity, be more stable, and tow more.

My suggestion? Get a 6x6 ATV. We use them at work for maple tubing installations. They don't turn as tight as a 4 wheeler, but are very nimble in the woods, and you would be amazed how much more stable they are, and the places they will go. They have a rear cargo box that dumps as well.
We have used polaris sportsman big boss 800's in the past, I think they have a new 570 big boss that is supposed to be improved a bit (power steering, 2up seat)
We did also just get a Can am outlander 6x6 as well, with a track kit for deep snow. It's geared lower than a regular outlander and is wider.
If you really want to work an ATV hard and also keep the width and agility of a 4 wheeler, get a 6x6. You can recreation-ally ride a 6x6 just fine, but the regular 4 wheelers will outdo them trail riding generally. Although a 6x6 will go some pretty foolish places  :D
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

thecfarm

322 acres is alot of land to play on. Lucky you. Will a ATV do what you want??  I play on about 170 acres with a 40hp tractor. And that could be bigger at times. BUT saying that,the wife has a 30hp tractor and I can sneak through the woods with that. The 40hp needs roads planed out and trees cut to really get around. But I do get out more wood per trip with the 40hp too. The 30hp is smaller and I can't bring so much out. So there is a trade off there.
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

johndoesti

Strictly specs speaking, a 6 x 6 provides twice the payload capacity but I can get an ATV with the same towing capacity for the same price. I also understand the various other pros/cons of UTV vs ATV mentioned in this thread (thanks). Now, what would differentiate a 6x6 ATV against other vehicles like the Argo in my logging scenario? I also mostly see 400-500ish machines on the forum. Are bigger engines a waste? Thank you all for your excellent feedback. I can't see a tractor working on my topography, too steep and not flat enough, even for a 4 x 4.

samandothers

I have a Polaris 700 sportsman with plenty of power and ground clearance and a smooth ride.  I have a 2" ball on it and can pull the trailer that I use carry the Polaris on.  It is nimble in the woods.  The downside is you can't easily take anyone else.  Also it is not as easy to carry stuff on it as my brother's UTV with a bed. 

On the flip side my brothers UTV does not have as much ground clearance.  It also rides rough!

thecfarm

Too steep for a tractor but ok for a ATV.  ???
I would not want to be coming down one steep hill I have with a load behind me that weighs as much as me.
I come down it with my tractor and the load does not push me down the hill.
I use to have a smaller tractor and the load would try to control me.  :o 
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

John Mc

The topo lines in meters were throwing me off a bit, since I'm used to looking at feet. Even so, I'm spending a lot of time harvesting firewood and the occasional sawlog and clearing for new trails on a parcel of similar shape, but about half that size (115 acres) with an elevation gain of 575 feet.

I'm with thecfarm here - as the land starts to get steeper, I'd be more inclined to pick a tractor over an ATV any day. It's not just getting logs up the hill, it's getting loads back down. An ATV (or even a UTV) does not have much for brakes, and even if it did, it does not have enough weight to maintain good enough traction to control a good sized load. With that size acreage, I'd imagine you are going to want a tractor for other tasks anyway.

Sooner or later, you are going to want access trails through those woods. Yes, you may be able to snake your ATV in to areas where you can't get a tractor, but snaking around trees is not really an efficient way to get wood in and out, and you have a greater chance of damaging your residual stand (the trees you want to keep).

A 4WD compact tractor with a quick-attach loader (so you can swap out for the other implements you'll pick up sooner or later) and a logging winch on the back will move a good amount of wood, and will have the added benefit of being able to help out with numerous other tasks around the property.

A word of warning: Everyone thinks the equipment they have is a great way to get the job done. I do my work with a 33 HP 4WD compact tractor - so in reading the above, you can tell my bias. I've never wished for anything smaller (and occasionally wished for bigger, but I'm not doing this for a living, so I don't see an equipment upgrade happening anytime soon). I know guys who work all day with professional-scale logging equipment, and I also know a guy who logs professionally with an ATV (admittedly, he has a specialty niche). So what it boils down to is "where there's a will, there's a way."

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

celliott

Quote from: johndoesti on February 07, 2017, 07:54:36 PM
Strictly specs speaking, a 6 x 6 provides twice the payload capacity but I can get an ATV with the same towing capacity for the same price. I also understand the various other pros/cons of UTV vs ATV mentioned in this thread (thanks). Now, what would differentiate a 6x6 ATV against other vehicles like the Argo in my logging scenario? I also mostly see 400-500ish machines on the forum. Are bigger engines a waste? Thank you all for your excellent feedback. I can't see a tractor working on my topography, too steep and not flat enough, even for a 4 x 4.

A 6x6 atv vs an Argo type atv- Argos ride very rough, have jerky steering, and can be expensive to maintain/repair. The stub axles are also a bit fragile. But they can go anywhere.
A 6x6 atv vs a 4 wheel atv- you gain a significant amount of traction and stability. You mentioned towing capacity was the same for a 6x6 an 4x4 atv- that capacity won't mean much if you don't have traction enough to pull it in the woods.
I feel way safer on our 6 wheelers than a 4 wheeler going in the woods on steep spots. It's amazing what the extra axle and two tires do for you.
Engine size- if looking at polaris and can am 6x6's, I would always get the smaller engine option. The 800 polaris and 1000 can am have enough power to break stuff... They are geared lower so the 570 as 650 are more than adequate.
The 6x6's are designed with work in mind. The 4x4's not so much. If you really want an atv for working hard, definitely get a 6x6. Go ride one. You'll be impressed.

That's my bias :) we use them a lot and that's where my experience lies.
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

coxy

some thing  to think about  why not go with a ditch witch some of the guys on here built little skidders out of them and not much bigger than an atv or utv  maybe some one with more brains than I can find the topic that has them in it with pics

celliott

Get onto youtube and check out some videos of them, there's plenty.
It's hard to explain how a 6x6 is superior to a 4 wheel atv in some aspects unless you've ridden both. 6x6's are just impressive with how much traction they have and the places they will go, with ease.

Here's a can am promotion. You can get a hydraulic forwarding trailer to tow behind as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jBZSp3Z0Iw
Chris Elliott

Clark 666C cable skidder
Husqvarna and Jonsered pro saws
265rx clearing saw
Professional maple tubing installer and maple sugaring worker, part time logger

sprucebunny

In the summer, I have use of a 25HP Deere tractor. Those things have zero suspension and my land has rocks, holes and stumps. The fastest i can go and keep my body parts where they belong is about 5 MPH on my best trail. The ATV can go at least twice as fast on the same terrain.

Once a person has really smooth trails or if your land has NO rocks, a tractor may be better for some things but in the beginning when there are no trails, an ATV is better.

After almost 14 years of trail cutting and even some smoothing with an excavator, the ATV (with tracks in winter) is my first choice. The 6x6 ones look useful but I'm still glad I bought the ATV I did and the tracks.

MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

Ramicorn

I also use a rubicon 500, use mostly a skid cone but also have a trex trailer. I log in sugar maple woods and I have taken out some pretty big logs with it, like alot of things all comes down to experience, if its going to be a twisty skid, rough terrain or up hill might not try to take out a big log, but if have a straight shot or down hill can go pretty big. The skid cone works really great other than getting dirt in the wood, and are pretty inexpensive.

johndoesti


  • thecfarm & John Mc : Duh! I was only thinking when going up, good point. smiley_dizzy
  • celliott : I'm certainly considering the 6 x 6 now...
  • sprucebunny : did you try tracks in summer for added traction?
I have kind of ditched the idea of a skid cone already as the big logs will be used for my log cabin, don't want to drag those logs on the ground (maybe just one end with a log arch could work as I could cut the "dirty" section afterwards).

LeeB

Wouldn't you want to peel your logs for the cabin? The dirt would be removed in the process.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

John Mc

Quote from: sprucebunny on February 08, 2017, 07:35:21 AM
In the summer, I have use of a 25HP Deere tractor. Those things have zero suspension and my land has rocks, holes and stumps. The fastest i can go and keep my body parts where they belong is about 5 MPH on my best trail. The ATV can go at least twice as fast on the same terrain.

Once a person has really smooth trails or if your land has NO rocks, a tractor may be better for some things but in the beginning when there are no trails, an ATV is better.

I suspect our land is not all that different, though I do have some well-developed trails on both of the properties where I spend my time. You are right that tractors have no suspension, and that can be a limiting factor on speed. The suspension on my tractor is in the seat, not the wheels, but it does make quite a difference in the ride (especially since I have filled rear tires, which eliminates some of the "shock absorbing" that an air filled tire can give). Speed is not my main concern when pulling out a 3 to 4000# load of green hardwood behind my tractor. However, most of my trails are in pretty good shape, so I can easily top 5 MPH on them. I may move slower than an ATV (at least when the ATV is unloaded, but I have yet to see the ATV that I would be comfortable pulling out 4000# with on my hills (and definitely not 4000# at higher speeds). Even if it were rated for that kind of pulling, it's the stopping that concerns me. I make up for the lower top speed by pulling out more at a time.

Lastly, I have yet to see a good solution for winching out logs with an ATV. I have a smallish PTO logging winch with 230 ft of cable and rated to pull 7700#. Electric winches are too slow (for me), and typically have a very low duty cycle (even the high-quality winches might give you 30 seconds at full load, then you are supposed to let it cool for 15 minutes). I didn't want to build a trail up to every tree I harvest - even a trail that can accommodate an ATV, so I went with the combination I have now.

None of this is to say that an ATV/UTV is a bad choice. It just wouldn't work for me, in my situation, in the manner in which I prefer to work. I've seen the guy in action I mentioned above who does ATV logging commercially, and he is an artist at work. He's a 3rd generation logger, and grew up using big, dedicated logging equipment. When he got out of that, he switched to specialty ATV work as a sideline, since he missed working in the woods. Between his ATV, a logging arch or trailer, and a gas-powered capstan winch, it's truly impressive what he can do. However, even he will admit he can't keep up with an equally skilled operator on a tractor which is appropriately set up for work in the woods, and his dedicated logging equipment would have run rings around a tractor and an ATV put together, as far a productivity goes.

What I really drool over is a mini Vimek forwarder I saw demonstrated a year or two ago. However, I'll never be able to justify the price tag for my own use.

A lot of this is just making the decision on what your own sweet spot is for the combination of time vs money spent. It also hinges on what you may already own, and what other uses you have for the equipment. ATVs are great for getting where you are going quickly. I don't know of too many hunters who use their tractor to get where they are going, or anyone who really enjoys recreational riding on their tractors. On the other hand, for grading a road, brush-hogging a field or lifting heavy stuff, a tractor certainly has the edge. What works for you depends on your own work methods and needs.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

johndoesti


  • LeeB : Not sure yet, might do timber frames or hand hewn with the help of chainsaw cuts, etc.
  • John Mc : very helpful, thank you. Based on your post, I have determined I need an ATV for now and in a few years, once I get serious, a tractor.

John Mc

Here's a link to the T-rex trailer others have mentioned. Woodland Mills actually sells two variations on the design: Both are rated to carry 2000#, both convert between a log trailer and a dump trailer (and have dump angles of 60˚).

  • The T-Rex, has a boom and hand-crank winch for loading, but can only dump 650# (due to the limitation of the boom)
  • the Woodland ATV Trailer, which looses the boom, so loading happens by hand or by using the tailgate as a ramp and winching in through the rear of the trailer. The advantage of the Woodland trailer is that it can dump the full 2000# load.

If I were using an ATV for my logging and firewood, I'd have something like this. Personally, I'd probably go for the Woodland trailer, since I haul more firewood than long logs, and loading the cut (and sometimes split) logs is quicker by hand. It seems like a nice match for an AVT/UTV.

There are several others who make clones of this trailer. Dr Power makes the Versa-trailer, which is a clone of an earlier version of the T-Rex (but limited to a 35˚ dump angle). I've seen one of these up close. Nice idea, but the execution lacked in some places (at least on the one I saw).

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

John Mc

Quote from: johndoesti on February 08, 2017, 09:19:02 AM
John Mc : very helpful, thank you. Based on your post, I have determined I need an ATV for now and in a few years, once I get serious, a tractor.

Either will get the job done. Both will beat what I started out with: a Craftsman Garden Tractor pulling a Rubbermaid cart.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

DelawhereJoe

You also need to look at what else could I use this piece of equipment for...loader, forklift, backhoe, auger, post driver, log splitter, trencher ....etc, etc, etc....an atv/utv are great but have there limitations as do tractors.
WD-40, DUCT TAPE, 024, 026, 362c-m, 041, homelite xl, JD 2510

Thank You Sponsors!