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Too good to be true?

Started by Den Socling, March 22, 2017, 03:09:05 PM

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Den Socling

Look at this coating. has anybody had any experience with it? Stops bugs, rot and fire?
http://www.nexgenprotection.com/

Ljohnsaw

Sounds to good to be true.  I tried the link to what the product is but you need a password.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Den Socling

Yes, some links are password protected. At this one http://www.nexgenprotection.com/gallery/ you see some weird blue construction.

Don P

 :D Must be borate season. That looks like another name for Bluwood
http://www.conradfp.com/building-products-bluwood.php

Den Socling


Den Socling

They look the same but I see that NexGen claims fire protection while BluWood does not.

Only with NexGen will the entire wood package used in these construction projects be:

- protected from fire

longtime lurker

I read it. Its a UV stabilized polymer coating with borates tossed in.  Note the following "dipped, sprayed or painted" " block stacked until dry" "/water can't enter or leave the timber once dry"

Bet the fire retardent version also has zinc, probably as zinc phosphate, or ammonia in it as well.

Like many such treatment its all good until.someone does something silly like put a nail or screw in when building and breaks the envelope barrier.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

longtime lurker

I actually support this kinda stuff. I think its a cheap, environmentally friendly option that deserves consideration in a lot of applications where H1 or H2 level protection is all that's required, maybe even H3 in some areas.

What its not is an option when you need serious  protection: its a treatment on the wood not in the wood. Pressure treatment, or boultonizing, or dip diffusion to get deep treatment is still better for higher hazard applications. There's some research going on ATM around pressure treatment with inorganic salts like boron followed by polymer sealer to prevent leaching that looks promising for H3, maybe H4 levels.

Beyond that the best bet is still CCA, ACQ or Penta depending on species and how many heads you want your kids to have. I spent all day yesterday inhaling H3 LOSP... got the mother of all headaches today... Real treatment is good, but its purpose is to kill living organisms and that's a fact.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Don P

I think... at 4% borate in the wood you have a fire rating of some sort. I have seen some pretty impressive looking borate treated on the job that I imagine would be hard to ignite.

With enough of the pesticides, and herbicides, I think we have our priorities mixed up.

longtime lurker

Off the top of my head - and I don't know fire retardance like I know preservative treatment - there's two basic types of retardent.

The first is inorganic salts- borates, zinc chloride, calcium formate, fluoride rings a bell -/that are impregnated into the timber.

The second group are plasticizers such as ammonia polyphosphate which are external coatings.

Inorganic salts make the outside treated zone char rather then burn by physical action. The charcoal layer then serves as a carbonaceous barrier to the transfer of heat to the underlying wood, which increases its flash point

Plasticizers create a chemical reaction that deprives the burning surface of oxygen, creating char by a different mechanism.

Or something like that
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Den Socling

longtime lurker you sure know a lot for somebody who doesn't "know fire retardance".

longtime lurker

Other then then the (short) list of species that meet both the domestic and major international fire retardant ratings untreated, that's about all I know.
Treatment I can talk schedules and chemicals and processes commercial and non commercial;if not at the expert level at least as a gifted amateur. I spent a lot of time studying it to negotiate some very onerous EPA issues we had around licensing fees.

Now if I could figure a way to get one of the naturally fire retardant species that comprises about 20% of my harvest to international market with a premium as a good looking" green" naturally fire retardant wood for specialty flooring ... that would be useful. Usual story... enough you could theoretically do something, not enough to guarantee supply unless I had long lead times.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

plantman

Quote from: longtime lurker on March 24, 2017, 07:32:12 PM
Other then then the (short) list of species that meet both the domestic and major international fire retardant ratings untreated, that's about all I know.
Treatment I can talk schedules and chemicals and processes commercial and non commercial;if not at the expert level at least as a gifted amateur. I spent a lot of time studying it to negotiate some very onerous EPA issues we had around licensing fees.

Now if I could figure a way to get one of the naturally fire retardant species that comprises about 20% of my harvest to international market with a premium as a good looking" green" naturally fire retardant wood for specialty flooring ... that would be useful. Usual story... enough you could theoretically do something, not enough to guarantee supply unless I had long lead times.

Hey LongtimeLurker

I believe we may have discussed this before but I don't recall exactly what was said . For the guy milling his own wood what would you recommend as a wood stabilizer / wood preservative / wood insecticide ? From what I've read so far I'm thinking about a solution that combines Borax, boric acid, and ethylene glycol but I'm not even quite sure how to mix this all up and whether it requires heating and how much of each component to use. Appreciate you expertise.

Den Socling

I believe you want polypropylene glycol  and not ethylene glycol. Ethylene glycol is toxic.

Ljohnsaw

No, actually ethylene glycol is the correct stuff.  There is so little of it in the wood it is safe (according to the research in another thread here).  Having it around to treat the wood, you would have to be careful that it does not get ingested by pets or kids.
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

longtime lurker

Okay so what do you wish to achieve? Are you trying to do like treatment treatment to a retention level sufficient to carry a H level for a structural or similar application, or is your aim merely to keep things from eating your wood in storage?

You can meet H1, H2, H3, H4 treatment levels on a small scale pretty easy. It won't be certified treatment but it would pass if tested... but plenty peace of mind if say building with your own lumber.

If all you want to do is keep bugs out of a stack use a mix of 60 % Borax to 40% Boric Acid by weight. Mix with water, using a pound of mixed powder to the gallon. Stir well. That's suitable to spray on, though I'll always recommend having a trough full of mixed solution beside the mill and just dipping the boards in as you saw them: that way you get full coverage and you get the board de dusted at the same time.

The glycol mixes aren't worth the bother IMHO and I've never played with them. There's options that work way better with no more effort: all the glycol does is allow the borates to penetrate in a bit deeper. If you're going to go to that much trouble you'd do better to use LOSP ( white spirit/ mineral turpentine) either stand alone or with permethrin in it.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Den Socling

It's been 30 or 40 years since I worked with polypropylene glycol but if I remember correctly, the wax-like PPG replaces the free water in the wood and prevents shrinkage and the resulting cracks.

longtime lurker

Cool! I only ever looked at the preservative effect of the glycol- wasn't better then what we could do cheaper with other agents- but that's a handy trick to know RE drying collapse. I'm going to have to play with that one.

Question. Any thoughts as to why industry hasn't taken it up on a large scale?
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Den Socling

It's expensive. I made a temporary trough to soak a huge block that a guy wanted to carve but I wouldn't want to buy enough to do large amounts of wood. It comes in different molecular weights. I believe I used PPG 1000 but I've heard of PPG 300 being used.

Den Socling

I was corrected in email. It's PEG and not PPG.

Don P

This is an interesting large scale PEG project that has been ongoing for most of my life. Scroll down to the conservation part near the bottom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

There was a log home company in Ellijay, GA that was producing a log home kit. They are gone now I believe. I talked with the owner years ago and he sent me micrographs of the cells before and after their process, unfortunately several computers ago. It is a waxy substance at that molecular weight with finishing problems.

I was having dinner several weeks ago at a house I had worked on a few years back. The son in law had been doing some chainsaw carving and then soaking the pieces for months in PEG. As I walked in the garden the carvings were in the condition one would expect, bad, except one of the PEG impregnated ones it was in very good condition and still pretty bright.

plantman

Quote from: Don P on March 28, 2017, 07:18:59 PM
This is an interesting large scale PEG project that has been ongoing for most of my life. Scroll down to the conservation part near the bottom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

There was a log home company in Ellijay, GA that was producing a log home kit. They are gone now I believe. I talked with the owner years ago and he sent me micrographs of the cells before and after their process, unfortunately several computers ago. It is a waxy substance at that molecular weight with finishing problems.

Don, that link is no good. Perhaps you could check.

I was having dinner several weeks ago at a house I had worked on a few years back. The son in law had been doing some chainsaw carving and then soaking the pieces for months in PEG. As I walked in the garden the carvings were in the condition one would expect, bad, except one of the PEG impregnated ones it was in very good condition and still pretty bright.

plantman

Quote from: Don P on March 28, 2017, 07:18:59 PM
This is an interesting large scale PEG project that has been ongoing for most of my life. Scroll down to the conservation part near the bottom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

There was a log home company in Ellijay, GA that was producing a log home kit. They are gone now I believe. I talked with the owner years ago and he sent me micrographs of the cells before and after their process, unfortunately several computers ago. It is a waxy substance at that molecular weight with finishing problems.

I must have typed that incorrectly the first time. Don, could you please check your link ?

I was having dinner several weeks ago at a house I had worked on a few years back. The son in law had been doing some chainsaw carving and then soaking the pieces for months in PEG. As I walked in the garden the carvings were in the condition one would expect, bad, except one of the PEG impregnated ones it was in very good condition and still pretty bright.

plantman

Quote from: Don P on March 28, 2017, 07:18:59 PM
This is an interesting large scale PEG project that has been ongoing for most of my life. Scroll down to the conservation part near the bottom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(ship)

There was a log home company in Ellijay, GA that was producing a log home kit. They are gone now I believe. I talked with the owner years ago and he sent me micrographs of the cells before and after their process, unfortunately several computers ago. It is a waxy substance at that molecular weight with finishing problems.

I was having dinner several weeks ago at a house I had worked on a few years back. The son in law had been doing some chainsaw carving and then soaking the pieces for months in PEG. As I walked in the garden the carvings were in the condition one would expect, bad, except one of the PEG impregnated ones it was in very good condition and still pretty bright.

Ok, one more time . Ha Ha ! Don, please check your link.

plantman

An excellent website where you can find more info on this subject is the Woodenboat forum. Once there you will find a good thread titled "wood preservatives" .

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