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Kohler Engine is a Nightmare

Started by POSTON WIDEHEAD, April 01, 2017, 09:46:30 PM

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Peter Drouin

I have been holding my mouth for a week and It doesn't help WDH :P
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: Peter Drouin on December 01, 2017, 08:50:55 PM
I have been holding my mouth for a week and It doesn't help WDH :P

Change hands.  :D
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

starmac

I do not know how much diagnostic equipment is available for small engines, but autos and larger, it is possible to hookup a laptop and run while a tech is riding and watching it, even if he doesn't spot a glitch it is spotted when the info is later printed out.
It would be nice if stuff like that was available for small engines, since we are going to be forced to go the total electronic efi route.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

POSTON WIDEHEAD

Quote from: starmac on December 01, 2017, 09:19:28 PM
I do not know how much diagnostic equipment is available for small engines, but autos and larger, it is possible to hookup a laptop and run while a tech is riding and watching it, even if he doesn't spot a glitch it is spotted when the info is later printed out.
It would be nice if stuff like that was available for small engines, since we are going to be forced to go the total electronic efi route.

I have to strongly agree with you here.
If we're being forced to use electronic engines....there should be more gauges and digital read outs available for the sawyer to watch.
We should not have to go out and buy stuff and hook it up to watch the diagnostic of our engine.
To all sawmill companies: This may be something to think about. A dash board including a fuel gauge.
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

starmac

Then there are times when all the diagnostic equipment in the world just doesn't help, and yours may have possibly been one of them.
twice I have personally run into this type of thing on trucks. one was a Detroit, but not a Detroit. My motor would over heat easily, but cool off quick once the fan came on, getting worse over time. I eventually changed batteries and it wasn't long before the heating problem started getting worse. I went home and cleaned the radiator again, washed out the air to air, while I was at it, took a short test drive and it was worse (how could this be) I then changed the thermostats, now the problem was even worse, changed the water pump, and fired her up, worse yet, even running the fan it would run 205 idling.
I finally took it to Detroit, they cleaned the radiator, air to air and it got worse, several other things and it progressively got worse every time they fired it up. Finally decided it was not hot, the friggen heat guage means nothing, it reads what the ecm tells it to read. The ecm was telling the engine it was hot, turning on the fan, just like it was hot. Mow over 1,000,000 miles later that very same ecm is still in the truck and working fine, the new batteries were the problem. The old batteries were marginal, but the new ones, though they were fine (interstates) They were not the very top of the line Interstates and were not giving the ecm the steady voltage it requires.
This was my first electronic truck, I since have seen the same thing happen to several other trucks.
I fought a problem that seemed like a fuel problem on a cat motor for 2 years, it might run fine for a month then throw a fit. We changed every fuel line on the truck, we changed fuel pumps several times, computer never threw any codes. It finally got to the point you could set your watch by the time of day it would throw a fit, until it finally quit completely. Then I found a wire in the computer harness that had a 1/4 inch bare spot rubbed on it. It was not shorted in any way, because there was nothing but a bunch more wires in there with it that had no rub spots on the insulation. I put a bungee cord on it to where it separated the wire from the bundle and it fired right up and run a week or so before I decided I FINALLY had found the culprit and fixed it right, never had another problem. This also never showed up on computer diagnostic equipment after countless times trying.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Ianab

With cars you can buy an aftermarket code reader with Bluetooth radio that connects to your cellphone, which is the computer that collects / displays and records the info.

No reason someone can't build the same thing for any computer controlled engine with a diagnostic port.

You still need the technical nouse to decipher what the symptoms and codes mean, but the interface and software don't HAVE to be expensive.

And like Starmac says, if the computer itself doesn't know what's going wrong, it can't help you much...
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Randy88

EFI engines have been around for decades in vehicles, all the issues every company had with those back in the day has been forgotten about, but the list was long back then, I know I've owned several vehicles that had issues and I still remember what happened when nobody knew how to fix them, not even tech support had a clue.   

Part of the issue your having now with nobody knowing how to fix it is just that, they can't write a manual on things they'd never seen, can't fix something over the phone on an issue that's never cropped up before, just like back in the day when EFI came out on cars.   It wasn't until enough mechanics complained that the companies started to update manuals much more often so everyone knew how to trouble shoot issues instead of a handful that had figured it out on their own.     

Part of what your experiencing is just that, the product is too new, and too few of people know what to look for, both the [engine] company and tech support have never seen it before, or the brains [computer module's] have not been programmed to find this particular issue and tell those trying to fix it what's wrong.    As they say on some things it takes hands on experience, luckily you found someone who's seen it before and fixed it before, the upside of that is he's seen it and fixed it, the downside to that is the same, meaning your not alone by far, or to put it simple, doubt your issues are over by any stretch of the imagination, it will either happen again, many times over, or the next issue will crop up and do something much stranger and be more costly to repair.      Just like back in the day when EFI first came out on vehicles, either you got lucky and never had an issue, or like me, spent thousands to fix issues never seen before, or get fed up and just trade vehicles for one that ran and hopefully had fewer problems.     

The issue with sawmills is this, both the elements they run in and the amount of hours they run at any given time, if the engine was in a lawnmower, just how many hours per week do those run on average for a homeowner?? how many at any given time??   How much downtime does a lawnmower cost the owner when it doesn't run??   On average I'd venture a guess that the average lawnmower gets less than 100 hours per year, I put that on my mill in a couple weeks or less when sawing and I saw how often per year for a total number of hours per year?     

The last time I counted I had over 100 engines I own, from lawnmowers to bulldozers, trucks, tractors, vehicles, chainsaws, transfer pumps you name it, I've either had it or own one and have seen about everything one could imagine that needs repair.    My experience is this, if your going to put over 100 hours per year on it and can buy a diesel to do the job, buy the diesel, especially in smaller diesels that are liquid cooled and have mechanical injection pumps on them, especially if you plan on keeping it long term or racking up over 1000 hours on them.    Just downtime alone not counting fuel savings will pay for them.   I like Kubota engines, simple yet durable and have been around long enough to at least have someone that has seen about every issue imaginable with them, not like new EFI's in Kohler's.    If your mill can't support a diesel, there are mills made that can, if you've traded before, trade for one that can support a diesel.    If you can go electric motor driven, go that route, if you can trade just the engine for another gas, I'd be working hard to trade it off when it still ran and was fairly new.     If your wanting a Kohler gas that has a carb on it, let me know, I'm tired of fighting with one, seems it has an electronic ignition issue associated with the auto idle and a compatibility issue with a miller welder, even though miller claims they'd never had an issue, but Kohler claims its in the welder portion of the unit, not the engine.    Personally I'm thinking a diesel Lincoln will solve my problem with that whole blame game thing going on.   

If you've had one wire issue, chances are you'll have another wire issue on the same engine, it seems its just how it turns out over time.   I seem to recall a kohler in a lawnmower that had wiring issues, and after several new harness's and flywheels with new magnets glued on them, I solved that issue as well, the Kubota in my wife's used grasshopper solved that issue as well.     Now if your in need of a kawasaki with a carb problem, your in luck, I just happen to still have that one in a lawnmower I can't seem to give away, or start either for that matter.    I think if I'd look, I can still find the 5 or 6 new carbs I've bought for that engine over the years I'll throw in on the deal.      I think I pitched the old ignition modules and wiring harness's I'd replaced though, by the way, not a huge kawasaki fan either.      But how about a polaris Ranger, few miles but it knows the way to the repair shop all by itself, that too has wiring harness issues and has had from day one, not too keen on Polaris either.    That one I'd have to charge something for, to try to recoup my loss's in repair bills, but the upside is, we're narrowing down the list of things wrong with it, still won't run and you certainly don't want to drive it anywhere, because your guaranteed to have to have to walk home every time, but we are gaining, sooner or later I'll find something to trade it off on, maybe someone will steal it, I do have insurance on it, but as of yet, nobody seems to want to steal it, tells you how valuable it is when nobody will steal it.  I think we're up to four new computers on that engine alone and I've owned it only three years.    Best of luck.   

bozzaa69

Does anyone else think it's ridiculous to put EFI on these small engines now? There's NOTHING wrong with a carburetor that is tuned properly, on a car or small engine. Emission wise or etc. It's all just a way to make things not as good as they used to be. Complicating things, and causing problems and headaches for people trying to do real work. All just costing us more money and less able to make a profit. Same goes with Automotive, but EFI there was all a solution to governmental EPA. On the small engines, any environmental issues are insignificant. It's all just insanity and BS. 

Kbeitz

I got enough older engines in stock that i wont ever need to deal
with the new junk. I had a kawasaki that give me fits this spring.
After changing everything I found out it was the spark plug giving
me my problems. I never seen a spark plug that would run 15 sec.
and quite and start right back up and run another 15 sec. and quite.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Randy88

Because its an engine giving off emissions and the EPA is going to govern them along with every other engine giving off emissions, same goes for chainsaws, string trimmers, push mowers and anything else burning gasoline.    Its also a way to get small engines to burn ethanol and not cause issues with the engine.

If you wait long enough, every two stroke engine will be outlawed, might not happen in the next few decades, but it is coming.     Right now professional logging saws are considered dirty saws and are limited in production, the cleaner saws and the rest of the lineup have to build so many before the pro line of Stihl can be built, also a reason why electronic/computer saws are coming and already here, won't be long before every saw is electronic and computer controlled.   

As for making them more costly, that depends on how you view it, from an overall standpoint, I'll take a new saw or new engine over one built 40 years ago even new back then, they had issues.   I remember the old points and condensor days when you never got done working on them and they were all updated to electronic ignition which solved all those issues.   I remember those gas engines that you had a hard time starting, lasted only 1000 hours before tossing them away and buying new, today I can buy a small engine that is guaranteed to start in three pulls or less [honda] and will last much longer than 1000 hours, four stroke engines don't require constant valve jobs, head gaskets and the list is endless.   

Over the years things change, some for the worse, many for the better, time will tell what comes, but by far my life is much better today with any new engine over those built 40 plus years ago.     That goes for large and small engines, back in the day, my grandpa never got done wrenching on every engine he owned and used, today I complain when I have one or two out of over 100 causing issues, that's less than 2 percent of all my engines, and those engines have 1000's of hours on each, many over 10k hours on each and still having no issues.      So overall things have improved in technology, and reliability, and with hope improve more still in the decades to come.       Those improvements have saved tens of thousands of dollars in repair costs for me alone every year, for not a lot of increase in costs to buy new, far different than even 50 years ago.         

Change is the only constant there has ever been, and small engines and technology that goes into them is no different than anything else.

I remember the argument over the use of aluminum in small engines, not sure those that complained have missed lugging those 50 lb low powered vibration monsters of years gone by, today I can even buy a chainsaw with heated handles and my hands don't go to sleep from the vibrations either while running them.      So it depends on how you view technology.   


dgdrls

Quote from: bozzaa69 on December 02, 2017, 06:26:12 AM
Does anyone else think it's ridiculous to put EFI on these small engines now? There's NOTHING wrong with a carburetor that is tuned properly, on a car or small engine. Emission wise or etc. It's all just a way to make things not as good as they used to be. Complicating things, and causing problems and headaches for people trying to do real work. All just costing us more money and less able to make a profit. Same goes with Automotive, but EFI there was all a solution to governmental EPA. On the small engines, any environmental issues are insignificant. It's all just insanity and BS.

Same for small engines now,  they were pulled into emissions regulations for exhaust and evaporative spec.  There is a spec for 25 HP and under non-road spark ignition motors and another for larger ones

Takes F.I. and computer controls to get them cleaner with the bonus of better fuel economy.
Downside is expense, diagnostics and companies building systems right on the margin of component reliability.

My dream fueled sawmill engine is an air cooled Deutz diesel.

POSTONLT40HD thank-you for all the posting on this issue, it's been of great value to the FF

D

Kbeitz

Quote from: Randy88 on December 02, 2017, 07:54:32 AM
Because its an engine giving off emissions and the EPA is going to govern them along with every other engine giving off emissions, same goes for chainsaws, string trimmers, push mowers and anything else burning gasoline.    Its also a way to get small engines to burn ethanol and not cause issues with the engine.

If you wait long enough, every two stroke engine will be outlawed, might not happen in the next few decades, but it is coming.     Right now professional logging saws are considered dirty saws and are limited in production, the cleaner saws and the rest of the lineup have to build so many before the pro line of Stihl can be built, also a reason why electronic/computer saws are coming and already here, won't be long before every saw is electronic and computer controlled.   

As for making them more costly, that depends on how you view it, from an overall standpoint, I'll take a new saw or new engine over one built 40 years ago even new back then, they had issues.   I remember the old points and condensor days when you never got done working on them and they were all updated to electronic ignition which solved all those issues.   I remember those gas engines that you had a hard time starting, lasted only 1000 hours before tossing them away and buying new, today I can buy a small engine that is guaranteed to start in three pulls or less [honda] and will last much longer than 1000 hours, four stroke engines don't require constant valve jobs, head gaskets and the list is endless.   

Over the years things change, some for the worse, many for the better, time will tell what comes, but by far my life is much better today with any new engine over those built 40 plus years ago.     That goes for large and small engines, back in the day, my grandpa never got done wrenching on every engine he owned and used, today I complain when I have one or two out of over 100 causing issues, that's less than 2 percent of all my engines, and those engines have 1000's of hours on each, many over 10k hours on each and still having no issues.      So overall things have improved in technology, and reliability, and with hope improve more still in the decades to come.       Those improvements have saved tens of thousands of dollars in repair costs for me alone every year, for not a lot of increase in costs to buy new, far different than even 50 years ago.         

Change is the only constant there has ever been, and small engines and technology that goes into them is no different than anything else.

I remember the argument over the use of aluminum in small engines, not sure those that complained have missed lugging those 50 lb low powered vibration monsters of years gone by, today I can even buy a chainsaw with heated handles and my hands don't go to sleep from the vibrations either while running them.      So it depends on how you view technology.   

Difference of opinions ...

I would not trade in my old engines for anything new.
I can easy fix what I have and it's easy to work on.
This is just one of my many old tractors. 16hp
cast iron and heavy. One pull of the rope and it starts
right up. Old dirty gas no problem Love it...



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

starmac

I do not know about the smaller diesels, but the new larger ones have their own set of electronic emission problems themselves. I think part of it is our cold climate.
For years all pickups on the slope were diesels, but they have been changing their fleets over to gas the last couple of years.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

Ben Cut-wright

Quote from: POSTONLT40HD on December 01, 2017, 08:46:34 PM
The Alt has a resistor in it keeping the Alt from spiking.
I've had it checked twice.
It is impossible to hook a bunch of electronics up to an engine and watch for voltage variations and saw at a the same time.
Thats a good way to really tear something up.  :D

Initial excitation is the purpose of said resistor, not voltage spike protection.

The alternator must be tested in service in order to determine proper charging and eliminate faults in circuits ON the unit.  A marginal rectifier or faulty diode can fail under loads not induced by bench test equipment. 

Checking a TPS sensor is much easier, and has more definitive determinations, than alternator testing.  Seems like at least one out of the five should have tested bad in some way. 

As in automotive engine control systems testing, the machine operator should NOT monitor the testing.  Test devices are connected and the operator runs the machine while others gather information from the test devices.  If 'cause and effect testing/diagnostics/and repairs' were accomplished in this instance in your case, there should be little risk of future failure in these components.   

Many operators would find it difficult, perhaps dangerous, to attempt keeping constant vigil on a 'dashboard' of gauges pertinent to the health of the engine, much less trying to use the information in any diagnosis of what these gauges and instruments were trying to tell them.  Extras such as gauges and lights and diagnostics will raise the price, maybe out of the range of many prospective customers. 

The greatest value in threads such as this may be in preventing others from having to endure the same struggles, stress, and loss of income and time you have.  There will be no answers given by Kohler to a layperson regarding what happened here. 

Randy88

Kbeitz, not to be smart but could you post a picture of your vehicle you drive daily that is of the same vintage as your tractor, same goes for the computer and camera your using to take photo's and post those to the forum??   I'm curious as how you do those things with the same vintage and quality of those items just like your tractor, or has technology helped along the way to aid you in your daily life, even though its considered "junk".   

Kbeitz

My 1967 Datsun....



 

My sony mavica... Still take a floppy disk... love it..



 



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

Ljohnsaw

Hmmmm, how did you take a picture of the camera you take pictures with... ;)

How many pictures can you get on a floppy, 15 or 20?  I'm sure they are high res 512x640 :D or 256x320?
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Kbeitz

Quote from: ljohnsaw on December 03, 2017, 01:00:41 PM
Hmmmm, how did you take a picture of the camera you take pictures with... ;)

How many pictures can you get on a floppy, 15 or 20?  I'm sure they are high res 512x640 :D or 256x320?

I use the memory stick. Bought this camera in 1997.



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

4x4American

I use a polaroid and a canon A-1 to take pictures for the FF...I also wear a foil hat when riding around in mah space shuttle thats still got a carbatrator  ;)
Boy, back in my day..

Ljohnsaw

Quote from: Kbeitz on December 03, 2017, 03:26:36 PM
I use the memory stick. Bought this camera in 1997.
I was wondering about that as well -  not many computers have floppy drives anymore!
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Ford 545D FEL, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/36" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Ianab

QuoteHow many pictures can you get on a floppy, 15 or 20?

The floppy could store 4 high res (2 mpix) images  :D

But because those older cameras had decent optics and a relatively large sensor the 2 mpix pictures they took where actually quite good.

And yes, we stopped fitting floppy drives to the desktop machines we sell about 5 years ago. The cases still have a 3.5 drive bay on the front, so we fit them up with a much more useful multi-card reader + extra USB port.
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Kbeitz

Sorry that I got this subject so far off track...

I'm very happy with my camera. Like posted above it has decent optics.
My camera has three settings. This was taken on the lowest setting.
The file size is only 40.077 Bytes. 640-480  No megapixels here.
This camera cost me $799.00 . Now you can buy them for $10.00 off E-bay.



 
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

POSTON WIDEHEAD

So a floppy disk can detect a faulty TPS if a Sony FD 200 is plugged into the ECU?  say_what
The older I get I wish my body could Re-Gen.

starmac

I have heard that a bad tps is so easy to diagnose without any fancy equipment, that even a goat can usually do it.
Old LT40HD, old log truck, old MM forklift, and several huskies.

LeeB

I've got one that's probably somewhere close to the same age. Can't use it anymore though because the programming got corrupted and no way to reprogram it unless I can find a disk somewhere. little bit different model but about the same price.
'98 LT40HDD/Lombardini, Case 580L, Cat D4C, JD 3032 tractor, JD 5410 tractor, Husky 346, 372 and 562XP's. Stihl MS180 and MS361, 1998 and 2006 3/4 Ton 5.9 Cummins 4x4's, 1989 Dodge D100 w/ 318, and a 1966 Chevy C60 w/ dump bed.

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