The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.




Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon

Nyle Kiln Dry Systems




Author Topic: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol  (Read 2475 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 36769
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Move'n on.

Offline Tom

  • In Memoriam
  • *
  • Posts: 25838
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Jacksonville, Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Toms Saw
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2004, 02:27:19 PM »
I think it is great that folks are experimenting and developing aternative fuels. It's a dark thought to know that the petroleum we pump from the ground is limited.  

Alcohol is a proven fuel but I still have reservations.  Certain percentages mixed with gasoline will still require that the engine be modified to handle it.  

Alcohol has a great affinity for water too. It worries me a little that water may be prevelant in bulk fuel tanks or even in Farm tanks or possibly in Automobile tanks when they aren't driven often.   Not really knowing about it, I just offeer concerns based on minimal contact with articles in the Media.

I look forward to the day when an affordable diesel oil and gasoline replacement will be provided.
extinct

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 36769
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2004, 02:46:57 PM »
I been wondering about the hydrogen fuel cell myself. Every once in awhile you here some fantastic claims and then it goes dorment. It's as if someone is working as hard to suppress the research as those are in refining and improving it. I heard that General Motors had a fleet of Vans this summer in DC driven by hydrogen fuel cells and there were several refueling stations set up. I haven't heard any follow-up. Has anyone heard anything lately?
Move'n on.

Offline Tom

  • In Memoriam
  • *
  • Posts: 25838
  • Age: 76
  • Location: Jacksonville, Florida
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Toms Saw
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2004, 02:56:03 PM »
Wasn't that hydrogen that caused the demise of the Hindenburg?  Maybe they don't have the safety controls yet. :)

I like the idea of a tank of water that the automobile changes to fuel as it needs it.

Here's a funny thought.

Water is oxidized hydrogen.  Split the atom, burn the hydrogen, using the oxygen and that creates oxidized hydrogen (water) again.   :D   What do you do, put the second batch in another tank or dump it back into the first tank again? :D   Sounds like a perpetual motion machine. :D :D
extinct

Offline Ron Wenrich

  • Forester
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13922
  • Age: 71
  • Location: Jonestown, PA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2004, 04:26:24 PM »
You can run alcohol without putting it in the fuel.  You don't need as high of a proof as you do with putting it into gasoline.  80 proof runs fine.  Carbereutor ports have to be made bigger, and there is a problem with starting.  Suggestions have been to dual fuel.  One to start, the other to run.  Something like the old tractors.  And you can make alcohol at home.   ;D

There is a hydrogen station in Iceland.  Just pull up to the pumps and fill it like a regular gas station.  The Europeans will be producing hydrogen cars very soon.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline D._Frederick

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1733
  • Age: 84
  • Location: Sherwood , Oregon
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2004, 07:31:59 PM »
Tom,

You are giving hydrogen a bum wrap about the Hindenburg. PBS had an analysis of the Hindenburg fire on the "Secrets of the dead". The Hindenburg had the outer cover painted with a mixture of powered aluminum and iron oxide which is rocket fuel now. This was set off by static charge, the hyrogen was the last thing to catch fire and burn.

Offline Ianab

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13425
  • Age: 57
  • Location: Stratford , New Zealand
  • Gender: Male
  • Marmite on toast is a real breakfast
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2004, 07:46:36 PM »
Running a car on hydrogen is the easy part... making the hydrogen is the tricky bit. Well making ENOUGH hydrogen to power enough cars. It's made from water, thats simple enough, but you have to put a heck of a lot of energy into the H2O to split it up into the 2 Hs and the O. So you are left with having to build nuclear or hydro power stations to generate enough power to make the hydrogen.

Running a car on methanol isn't that hard, needs mods to the carb or injection system, but it can be done.

We had a big plant here in NZ that was built in the 80s to convert natural gas into petrol, via methanol. It worked, but then petrol prices dropped and it wasn't worth it any more. The plant was converted to just make methanol, which is worth more than petrol anyway. ::)

Ian
Weekend warrior, Peterson JP test pilot, Dolmar 7900 and Stihl MS310 saws and  the usual collection of power tools :)

Offline Phorester

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 1600
  • Location: Winchester, Virginia
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't have a healthy forest without cutting trees.
    • Share Post
    • About Forestry Forum Host
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2004, 07:58:58 PM »

Right on D-Frederick about the Hindenburg.

Looked like the hydrogen cell was gonna be the savior for awhile.  I know W. mentioned it in a speech one time, so it has his support.  But we've heard so little about it lately that I wonder.

We do need to develop alternatives to petroleum based fuels.  But until they make them the same or less cost than gasoline and disel, they won't be used.

Reminds me of the "car of the future" they've been rolling out every few years for decades.  Got all the latest futuristic whoop-tee-doo stuff on them for the times, but they make them so darn ugly nobody wants one. Like they want to show they're improving the automobile, but then make it so no one wants it.
About.Forestry.Com forum host. Ya'll come: http://forestry.about.com/mpboards.htm

Offline Murf

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
  • Age: 54
  • Gender: Male
  • The pitter-patter of little feet..........
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2004, 09:32:29 AM »
The big movement we are seeing in Ontario is to Bio-diesel.

Basically it is highly refined vegetable oil. In fact they have several stations now selling it and several companies who produce and blend it then deliver it to bulk users like big fleets.

The big bonus is not just that a 10% Bio-diesel, 90% Dino-diesel mixture is cleaner and has a higher Cetane rating than straight Dino-diesel, but now that the sulphur is almost gone, they have realized that Veg. oil has VERY high lubricating properties.

In fact, a 10% / 90% mixture has a 15% higher Cetane rating, and 100% better lubricating properties.

The electric commission in Toronto started a pilot program last year running their whole fleet on a 10% blend of USED vegetable oil, filtered and treated.

The only adverse side-effect was completely unexpected. The workers were gaining weight.

It seems no matter how well they filtered and cleaned the oil, it still smelled like French Fries, the workers were constantly hungry from the smell of the exhaust.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

Offline Timber_Framer

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
  • Age: 58
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2004, 10:31:17 AM »
Bio-Diesel is looking better every year, they're getting better at refining the stuff so that unless it's very cold it no longer needs to be preheated.

Chicago ran three fuel cell city busses for two years and the reports were fantastic! Good enough for them to order 144 city service vehicles from Ballard. Busses, trucks and vans.
"If people concentrated on the really important things in life, there'd be a shortage of fishing poles."

Offline Silverback

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Age: 42
  • Gender: Male
  • Nothing is better than a sharpened bedrockstanley
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2004, 10:40:33 AM »
You can make Bio-Diesel at home also.  As I recall, a few of the chemical required seemed to be fairly caustic or oxidizers.  There was a big article a couple of years back in either Countryside or Backwoods Home; I don't remember which.  It could have been mother earth also--Part of the article was about some hippies in a RV tooling around the country on their homebrew fuel.
Live Life.  And to borrow NEW HAMPSHIRE's motto: live free or die.

Offline Murf

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1387
  • Age: 54
  • Gender: Male
  • The pitter-patter of little feet..........
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2004, 10:55:38 AM »
The only requirements to make Bio-diesel is a good filter and a supply of waste vegetable oil (WVO).

Once a standard diesel engine is warmed up, and if the fuel is also warmed up to get it as thin as 'regular' diesel WVO runs the same as Dino-diesel.

There is a Hippie near me who runs a 1970's Mercedes diesel sedan on WVO, we know 'cause he got arrested stealing it from the container behind a Mickey Dee's near me.
If you're going to break a law..... make sure it's Murphy's Law.

Offline Buzz-sawyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2210
  • Location: Brighton (S/W) Illinois
  • Gender: Male
  • To see it is to saw it....
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2004, 12:41:51 PM »
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Offline iain

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
  • Age: 57
  • Gender: Male
  • bonnin stuff
    • Share Post
    • Leafbone Furniture
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2004, 01:04:39 PM »
You can use anything here to run your vehicle, as long as you pay the duty which on petrol, is about 85% of the pump price which in rainy derby today is $7.74 uk gallons (4.65ltrs) at the current exchange rate.
Aint Brazil been burning pop for a while now as they got no oil?



iain

Offline duke401

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 94
  • Age: 59
  • Gender: Male
  • I need to edit my profile!
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2004, 07:00:38 PM »
 tom
there is a diffrence between splitting a atom an  splitting H2O, i have studied this for over a year, by march i hope to be running a well engine [800 M+M nat. gas] on H2+O. pumping water on its own power.
duke

Offline Buzz-sawyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2210
  • Location: Brighton (S/W) Illinois
  • Gender: Male
  • To see it is to saw it....
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2004, 07:50:37 PM »
Tom
The trouble is hydrolisis takes far more energy to produce hydrogen and oxgen than you get out of the two of them....its not complicated just takes energy,  water is a by product but much of the energy is converted to heat as the hydrogen passes through the fuel cell membrane,,,,,so theres no free lunch ;D
    HEAR THAT BLADE SING!

Offline DanG

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 13493
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Chattahoochee, Florida USA
  • Gender: Male
  • DanG, The Official ForestryForum Cussword
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2004, 08:52:31 PM »
Methinks that when the energy(oil) industry determines that an alternative fuel will be more profitable than petroleum, then we will see it made available. Until then, oil will be the main source of personal locomotion. :-/
"I don't feel like an old man.  I feel like a young man who has something wrong with him."  Dick Cavett
"Beat not thy sword into a plowshare, rather beat the sword of thine enemy into a plowshare."

Offline SwampDonkey

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 36769
  • Age: 52
  • Location: Centreville, NB
  • Gender: Male
  • Large Tooth
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2004, 07:46:01 AM »
I think when the oil companies find a way to be in control of alternative fuel sources then we will see them for the masses. ;)
Move'n on.

Offline beav

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 184
  • Age: 64
  • Location: Newbury
  • Gender: Male
  • got any logs?
    • Share Post
Re: First Vehicle Fleet to Use Cellulose Ethanol
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2004, 09:47:39 AM »
   Swampdonkey, I'm afraid you hit the nail on the head. >:(


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
New vehicle or not? When do you decide to call it quits and junk your vehicle?

Started by Piston on General Board

42 Replies
2694 Views
Last post October 06, 2012, 03:23:12 PM
by Okrafarmer
xx
Nanocrystalline cellulose [NCC] ...

Started by chain on Ask The Forester

3 Replies
826 Views
Last post November 11, 2012, 01:32:03 PM
by chain
xx
Cellulose For Energy Storage

Started by Ron Scott on Alternative methods and solutions

4 Replies
897 Views
Last post July 17, 2014, 09:42:35 AM
by Thehardway
xx
fleet farm bar oil

Started by trapper on Chainsaws

0 Replies
945 Views
Last post October 10, 2010, 11:36:06 PM
by trapper
 


Powered by EzPortal