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Author Topic: Hickory Timbers?  (Read 4934 times)

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Offline Don P

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Hickory Timbers?
« on: May 15, 2017, 08:08:46 PM »
I'm working on a 2 crib log barn restoration that has grown considerably in scope. We've been slabbing 2 faces on logs and leaving the top and bottom live edged. We are making them 9" thick which is the average thickness of the hewn originals. The bottom 4 courses are white oak, all being replaced. From there up for the next 12 courses we have been sawing poplar logs but I'm hitting the woods pretty hard and I'm seeing lots of nice shagbark and mockernut trees in the right size range. I know this is not traditional but I think that was because of the difficulty in working in hickory. This is all being done with power tools so that is not an issue. I don't believe the durability is any different than poplar, heaven knows poplar in a slab sided timber is going to open a good check. I think the powderpost beetles will be less interested in the hickory. We'll be heading back in to the "store" tomorrow. Has anyone used hickory timbers or have comments?

Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2017, 09:19:43 PM »
I believe that the PPB's actually prefer the ring porous hardwoods like hickory.  I know that they love pecan. 
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Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2017, 10:13:16 PM »
Hmm, makes sense, there's one to factor in when we talk about it in the morning. We are borating but I'm not sure I want to put in a preferred species, I sort of feel like we're bringing in fresh food to an existing ongoing feast already.

Offline ellmoe

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2017, 07:14:04 AM »
   In Fla, hickory is a PPB magnet. I wouldn't try it here.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2017, 07:23:51 AM »
I have some poplar in Northern VA.  You could cut several good beams but not til after june 17.  Not sure where you are located?
Liking Walnut

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2017, 10:45:51 PM »
We're down in southwestern VA, I actually have about 2,000 acres to wander on so I'm certainly not depleting them that hard. Using the hickory was feeling like a win/win by using a lower value species and leaving more poplar but we nixed it this morning, I'll just go deeper into the mountains looking.
The timberframers did ask for a couple of 60' 10x12 plates if we can find them. We're doing a bunch of 30' stock but that will be interesting... to move as well!


Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2017, 07:11:20 AM »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2017, 07:25:47 AM »
We're down in southwestern VA, I actually have about 2,000 acres to wander on so I'm certainly not depleting them that hard. Using the hickory was feeling like a win/win by using a lower value species and leaving more poplar but we nixed it this morning, I'll just go deeper into the mountains looking.
The timberframers did ask for a couple of 60' 10x12 plates if we can find them. We're doing a bunch of 30' stock but that will be interesting... to move as well!

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

 2000 acres is about my goal, SW is pretty.  My folks retired to Emory.   Can't believe you have issues finding good poplar, I think I'd enjoy that forest.  Most of the places I look at these days have too much Poplar and not enough mast species. 

Hickory makes great flooring, guess you can save it for that.
Liking Walnut

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2017, 07:26:11 AM »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.

Ochh
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2017, 07:28:16 AM »
Don- just seeing the 60' on there.  How will you mill it?  If you find that I'd like to see the picture.

Liking Walnut

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2017, 11:27:24 AM »
I'd stay away from the hickory unless you are treating it in some manner.  I had hickory cabinets in my last home.  The powder post beetles worked it over pretty good before we found them.  Hickory is not very rot resistant if it get wet repeatedly.

Wudman

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2017, 08:39:37 PM »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.

 It can really ruin your day, or so I've heard  :'(

We'll mill it with the Alaskan mill the same way we are doing the 30' ones. We nail a string from end to end centered, on the side of the log. I have a 16' section of extension ladder.  We start at the butt end and using 2 pieces of plumbers strapping and some metal roof screws we set a level on the ladder and screw it to the log measuring the distance from the top edge of the ladder to the string (this is not the csm setting simply the reference height for the ladder) We shim and screw the ladder down near the ends and at the middle level and the same height above the string. I then measure down from the ladder top edge to the desired cut line and set the mill up to that distance. Since the mill gauges are set up for the throat opening and I'm shooting for the bottom of the bar I deduct 3/8" on the mill guage for this opening cut. We go down to the end of the ladder, unscrew, slide the ladder down and repeat. You could go for as long as you want. The second cut for the opposite face is set up like normal. There is also a torpedo level taped to one of the bars on the mill and we watch it while cutting. Hopefully that made some sense  :).

We are borating but decided not to use the hickory.

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2017, 06:27:47 PM »
This is a shot after the first cut on a 30' log. We first centered a string along the side as a reference line then shimmed and leveled a ladder a uniform distance above the string. When we reached the end of the ladder we moved it down and repeated, shimming and leveling the ladder the same distance above the string. You could go pretty much any distance you want that way. These logs are 9" thick so after we finish the first cut we set the chainsaw mill to 9" and ride on the flattened surface, this pic is just prior to that cut.

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2017, 10:20:48 PM »
downloaded a few pics of making a 34' 10x12 beam
First we ran a string centered down the side of the log and set up a scaffold plank on the log, moving it down the length once. This set up the first CSM slab and then we did a second pass 12" below


Then we snapped a reference line down the side and set the supports up square to the first cut to hold the walkboard. The supports could be shorter



This is what it looked like at the end of that cut, It came out good and square




Thr 4th cut released a good heavy timber 10x12 X 34'.

It's still in the woods, too wet to move right now. We sawed poplar lumber under my sawshed yesterday and cleared the deck. Heading out to our pile this morning to see if we can grab another trailerload and buy some drying time on the ground.


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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2017, 07:39:41 AM »
Hopefully it stays straight and square.  My hickory likes to walk. 
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2017, 10:03:27 AM »
I moved a 53' ridge log for my shed by picking up one end of the log & rolling a small utility trailer under, then strapped the tongue to the log & picked up the other end with the 3pt.  just need room to make wide turns.
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Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2017, 10:52:58 AM »
Thanks for pic of your beam creation.

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2017, 06:05:55 PM »
I don't know what it is a hickory but green it certainly draws the carpenter ants .Something is killing off the hickory around here .Not exactly sure what it is .

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2017, 07:04:43 PM »
Whoops sorry for the confusion, I just kept talking about making the beams on this thread. We did nix the hickory, this one was a scarlet oak. No particular reason other than it was big enough, stronger than spec and got debarked during logging. The framers wanted poplar and we dropped one today that stands a good chance of making a 60'er which would work as a one piece top plate across the entire 2 crib barn, we'll know more as we work it up. Between the log cribs and side sheds there are 5 roof beams that length total although the bearing points/ potential splice points vary

We have talked about putting one end of this beam in the back of a truck and I'll pick up the other end with the loader and taking it out that way. We also have about 200' of cable on the winch on the loader and it is about that far out to the pasture in one direction so I could drag it out that way, but it'll get dirty if I do that.

Going back to hickory, the woods here are full of it and red maple and as I look at the next forest coming up that looks like what it'll be. I'm also in a conversation with some folks about affordable, nice, accessible small housing for older folks. I'm not opposed to exploring the use of those species in a frame.

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 07:49:45 PM »
We've gotten the 60' poplar sawn on 3 sides and out to the road today. Al will bring the skytrack over there in the morning and well pick it up, turn it 90 and set it centered on my trailer. I think it is strong enough at this size to make the trip like that. If it were weaker for that long length we had thought of bowstringing it or building a truss with this piece as the bottom chord.

This is a pic of the second scaffold move on the third side, that is a 24' scaffold plank so it took 3 moves to go the distance. That is poplar bark on the bottom foreground. We harvested three ~5x9' pieces from the lower end.

each piece is worth... $300


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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 09:01:12 PM »
The bark is worth that?

I am surprise the wood did not move with you.  Is that because of the scaffolding?

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 10:13:02 PM »
That will be a beauty.  Heck, it already is.   8)
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2017, 10:26:43 PM »
Is that bark for siding?  Seems that the bark is a nice bit of gravy. 
Liking Walnut

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2017, 10:34:23 PM »
It is something else, never tried anything like this before. "sure why not" gets me into more trouble  :D

We were just playing since the bark was slipping and it is easier to saw nekkid. The retail is $6-10 per sq ft with big sheets bringing the premium, I think at that size it is interior wall covering and the 18-24" long pieces are for siding. I don't know the wholesale buyers but I do see the occasional truck or trailer leaving here loaded. I think heading down to the Boone area.

The scaffold is just resting up there so provides no support. The learning curve has definitely been there on this. Across an old entrenched roadbed is not the best bearing for this thing. When we made the first cut we did put a couple of jacks under it. The second cut rides parallel to the first surface so those two were good cuts. While it was laying down with the flattened faces up and down I snapped a line for that third cut. We then rolled it upright and I set up the scaffold off of that line bearing on the 3 braces, the two "nice" ones and the far cobbled together in the woods one. I neglected to put the jack back under it for that cut and should have. The cuts wandered across the lines even in the 24' span about 3/8". Tolerable but could be better, supporting the long log better would have eliminated that.

As we drug it out of the woods across small pieces of logs it deflected maybe 3-4" at times but never seemed to be anywhere near in trouble. Just so nobody thinks this is adequate for a 60' clear span, in the final installation each end will be resting on a 20' log wall and there is an 18' drive through bay between the log cribs, so the beam is actually sized for that 18' clear span. The butt end is select structural, in the midspan area it is #1 and a the top end it drops to a #2. The single piece helps tie the building together. The landowner thinks he found us another tree, we'll try to check it out tomorrow. It looks like rain is moving back into the forcast so we'll try to get this one over to the jobsite in the morning and then either go for the next one or saw at my mill depending on the weather the rest of the week. I am going to tour part of a huge old estate on Wed. It was built in the '30's as the chestnuts were dying and is predominantly chestnut and its' bark, native stone, etc. Should be fun  8).

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2017, 06:32:28 AM »
It's fun on this end watching the progress.   ;)
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2017, 06:46:42 AM »

 I am enjoying this thread.
I had never heard of poplar bark siding but a quick search and there it is.
I'm wondering how it lasts off of the tree.

Jon
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2017, 05:54:35 PM »
If it stays dry or can dry rapidly, as long as any I suppose. Chestnut was the old time stuff popularized around Linville, Blowing Rock and Hendersonville NC around the turn of the century. Now poplar has taken its place, just as it has in the forest.

We got it to the log yard across the road from the barn this morning, piece of cake. Al looked like he was ready to go jousting with that thing dangling out in front of him 40'  :D





We walked bunch of mountain afterwards, found some neat places and kept going a few times even though I knew I was outside of where we could get one out, nice land. We found 3 candidates and cleaned up behind this one, there were 2 good trailerloads of big slabs that will get further processing for something, I voted for dining or picnic tables.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2017, 06:16:38 PM »
 I've moved some long ones with the back half of a running gear. This log would have made a 68'-6" 12"x12".



 
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2017, 07:01:53 PM »
The first 60'er got set this afternoon. We lost one in the woods when we opened up a rotten spot inside... on the third face, bummer! We found and finished up another and Al got it to the site yesterday. The remaining three 60' beams will be scarfed, which will be fine. These ones tied together by the four 6x8 tie beams we made today are going to lock the log cribs together well.




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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2017, 11:14:58 PM »
We had to bail in the rain yesterday with just one tie beam in, those peeled poplar logs made a banana peel look positively sticky when they got wet, hopefully we'll get the other 3 ties and the other 60' plate up Wed.
I forgot to take the camera today but set up the trebuchet at a timberframer's house and got it chunking watermelons. When his son got in and saw what we were up to there was talk of watermelon skeet shooting  :D

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2017, 07:32:47 AM »
I forgot to take the camera today but set up the trebuchet at a timberframer's house and got it chunking watermelons. When his son got in and saw what we were up to there was talk of watermelon skeet shooting  :D

Now this needs a picture!

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2017, 10:53:40 PM »
I wasn't there for the mass-a-cree but apparently great fun was had by all protecting America from flying watermelons  :D I think we have a new sport.

The barn project made half the front page of the paper today and most of page 3, well it is a small town. We got the 4 tie beams and the other 60' plate zipped in this morning. Don and I worked in the woods yesterday and dropped another large poplar and began slabbing it up for a 40' beam, it'll get scarfed to make one of the remaining three 60' plates. After lunch today we finished it, cleaned up a bit and drug it out to the road. I got into a little grove of hawthorns and took them out while we were in there, I flat out hate hawthorns... and they apparently return the sentiment. Al will finish pegging down the ties and plates and then get the beam to the site tomorrow then we're off to another part of the farm to get some more.

I've bought a little Gehl 3825 bobcat and have been playing with it here widening the road around the barn, moving mountains of sawdust and building a road to the backside of the high tunnel.  I'm used to hand and foot controls, these are all on the sticks, probably should have held out but it is a nice little older unit that has low hours and was well kept from what I can tell. Should have bought one years ago. Young men buy tools, old men buy equipment  :).

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2017, 07:45:38 PM »
We're slowly plugging away, both 60' plates and tie beams are up on the log cribs. The first scarfed 60' plate is up on its' 9x12 white oak posts to carry the first section of shed roof. The end posts were grooved to accept the tenons on the log extensions that form the 10' section of wall beyond the log cribs.


There was another continuation section of shed 10'  toward the camera in that shot that will be done in timber on a stemwall, but the rafters over the log cribs and this first lofted shed will go in first, then the mason will rotate in while the shed off the far side is being done. They are working on the stemwall for the south shed, to the right end right now.

The rafters were log, flattened on the top side for the skip sheathing. We are doing a minimal skim, code says to keep it less than 30% of diameter. We are letting crook wander side to side and trying to saw the flattest face to preserve the most "meat". The short rafters fit in between the posts on the Lucas but we have some up to 21' and they need to come in and out from the end. We set up 40' of roller table and sawed a 4x12x21' to support a pair of V'ed bunks that support the rafters. We load the rafter outside onto the V bunks with the forks on the loader and then roll it in, saw, roll out, unload and then debark. About 2 minutes of sawing and 10 minutes of debarking.



Partway through the crew needed some 2x6's so we loaded some logs onto the roller tables without our 4x12. We were sawing our way down through the log and neglected to think about how far down the blade drops while swinging between horizontal and vertical. Lucas blades don't quite make it through steel rollers  ::) oops!

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2017, 08:25:19 PM »
Ouch!

Great thread, thanks!

Offline WDH

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2017, 07:19:58 AM »
What a great project and a fine job.
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #35 on: July 29, 2017, 12:02:21 PM »
We got drafted to help reset the old upper rafters this past week. The crew was trying to reuse them since the span is relatively short and they could install a collar tie to help stiffen them. They set them up on a couple of beams in the haybarn to duplicate those long top plate beams and we sawed 2x6's to go on top of the severely swaybacked old rafters. They then ran strings and shimmed the 2x6's to create a flat plane for the new skip sheathing that will go on under the metal roof.




Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2017, 12:35:55 PM »
Very ingenious.  Looking good.

Offline btulloh

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #37 on: July 29, 2017, 03:57:57 PM »
That's a big structure.  Nice work.

Do you have a guy working for you named Johnny Jett?
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Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #38 on: July 29, 2017, 10:44:19 PM »
No, I think he is with Barnwood Builders?

This might work for a link to the article in the paper a week or two ago;
http://www.independencedeclaration.com/content/preserving-family-history#.WXxfMqswMqQ.yahoomail

Offline btulloh

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2017, 07:24:19 AM »
The link leads to the first paragraph of the article, but you have to be a subscriber to get the rest of it.  Sounds interesting.  Wish I could read the whole thing.

Just kidding with the Johnny Jett question - your picture reminded me of that show.
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Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2017, 10:03:27 AM »
I was able to open and read.  Great article about the history of the farm. 

Don I believe you got a call out in the article, well deserved!  smiley_clapping smiley_clapping Lots of local talent!

 Who were the 'experts' from Floyd mentioned in the article?  What was their role?

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2017, 01:00:37 PM »
2nd time's a charm.  When I clicked on it again I got the whole article.  Pretty neat.  Quite a story behind that structure.  It's really good that a lot of those old structures are behind rehab'd, preserved and re-used.

I've been to Floyd a few times.  Great area.  My grandmother was from Floyd.  She moved to Halifax county (Alton) when she married my grandfather.

Keep up the good work and thanks for keeping us informed.

BT

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2017, 01:02:07 PM »
It has been a fun project, a bit more than any of us anticipated but we're having a good time.
Al Anderson, Timber Works of Interest, is the GC on the project, the two of us Don's are getting to play in the woods providing the logs and timbers they need and pitching in when they need a hand. A couple of our friends are pitching in at my sawmill when they have time sawing up our "bycatch", logs that are other than the sizes we can use directly, into floor and sheathing boards. We used logs from 10-14" diameter to make the logs used in the cribs and are using the tops of those trees in the 6-8" range for the rafters. Of course we got into some whoppers doing the beams and are using the slabs to make some loft floor joists and more lumber. Big and crooked logs are being sawn into boards. Firewood has gone in about every direction. It's been pretty efficient thus far. We've kicked around trying to make charcoal out of the slab piles.

btulloh, I had looked Jett up to see what company he was with, didn't know he was a household name  :D. Lightening took out the dish a decade or so ago. The nice lady called to offer us a new one but I told her the pipe that was left standing in the yard was a great rain gauge holder and I didn't want to give that up. She didn't understand.

I enjoy Floyd, they have done great things with their downtown area in the past few years, nice timberframing everywhere.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2017, 02:55:38 PM »
This weekend was 'Floyd Fest' down on the Parkway.

Don who were the folks mentioned in the article from Floyd and their roles?

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2017, 07:51:51 PM »
The guys from Floyd are Al Anderson and Kevin Morley, they're actually from Pilot (Al's wife and Kevin's sister are also Blue Ridge Yurts). Al and Kevin and their helper Peter are the ones doing the reconstruction. We are making the materials and they are doing the joinery and construction.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2017, 10:59:18 PM »
Y'all are doing great work as well as the others and thanks for sharing the project.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2017, 09:25:13 PM »
Don't run over the chainsaw like I did   :-\.

Well...
At the end of the day yesterday we had dropped a tree in a particularly thick hawthorn grove and after getting an ear piercing that I hadn't really counted on I decided to stay after and clean it up a little. I got lazy hopping up and down from the loader and put the saw on the back deck and forgot. I was popping out stumps heading uphill and it slid off the back, and then I backed up and saw it smushed into the mud. It still runs and cuts but it broke the bottom handlebar mount. It's full of epoxy but it ain't gonna last long.

So I have an 034 that needs a cylinder and piston job but it doesn't look like there is an aftermarket one  ??? I think I'll try an 034 super and hopefully it'll be an easy bolt up. I can't imagine the bottom is different on those two saws.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2017, 09:30:37 PM »
I remembered to take the camera today and got a few progress pics. The timberframers have left. The sheathing is going on the roof then metal then on to sawing siding and closing it in.
This is the west side I've photo'd most.


inside the west shed, the joists for the catwalk to access the lofts is there as well as the breezeway between log cribs.


The east side;


The southeast corner showing the south shed


The guys have been sawing more sheathing boards the past couple of days, there's a few feet of that going up there!


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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2017, 07:00:52 PM »
Don, why the solid sheathing on the sides?  Is it related to anchoring for wind protection?  Sheathing pine?  Really looks good. Y'all have done a ton of work!

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2017, 08:58:16 PM »
 I think more work than anyone imagined  :D.

Most of the logs and timbers above the lower white oak parts are tulip poplar. We've been making 1x6's and 1x8's for the sheathing out of the "bycatch". Logs that were too big or too small or too short. We may have to drop another tree or two but cleanup should provide the majority. I like to fill the ends solid, it looks better when outside, it makes it easier to seal any exterior walls up top and it keeps the wind under the overhang from smacking right into the metal in that most vulnerable area.

Once the roof is on we'll try to get the west wing sided first, we've made some boards out of the white oak as we've gone along. It would be nice to have it available for lambing if needed. Then loft floors and lots of siding.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #50 on: December 20, 2017, 08:43:41 PM »
The roof metal is now on and trimmed out and we've had our first big wind... I drove by the next morning and the excavator and owner were already there checking it out too  :D. It impressed several of the old farmers at the store and took some trees and that was without the edge metal on yet so I think we're good.

This is the North, road, side. It was and will again be boarded over with a sliding door on the right hand western shed, we've already sided down the west timberframe short wall. That is our prevailing from the right, west.


The east shed is open. There was a light frame wall across the aisle between the cribs. We have room to make that a double slider. There was a tack room at the far end where the "different" roof transition occurs with the south shed. We still have that room intact and may rework it back in there.


Midway down the eastern shed looking between the log cribs into the western shed. The loft catwalk is at 9' and runs across to access the upper lofts in the log cribs. The lumber in there is for the loft floors.


Continuing on down the eastern shed to the south shed and looking West. We all want lots of windows on this end. Since the logs need to settle but the tf cannot I had them put in the post and beam assembly against the log crib to hold this shed in place. There will be a sliding flashing at the wall to roof above when we side that gable end.



Walking down to the end of the south shed and turning right to look northward through the western shed. We're trying to get this wing buttoned up first for lambing.


That's where we are now. I brought a bunch of our slabs and bycatch into the haybarn for siding recovery over the winter and we've taken 10 pickup loads of firewood out of the pasture, and as you can see in the background of one shot we still have all the original, mostly rotten logs to try to decide what to do with. There is another nearly identical barn on the farm so we might kick the can down the road and move it all over there.

Offline Don P

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Log barn #2
« Reply #51 on: April 10, 2018, 09:10:52 PM »
I moved the big toys over to the other log barn on the farm and started on it, which means I moved antique poop out for half a day. It is another 2 crib log barn at the core with northern and southern TF sheds. The metal came off major portions of the north side and about a third of that shed collapsed, the rest of that shed is badly rotted. The plate on the log crib that side is also in trouble. Structurally this one is in better shape than the other one and it was built a little better to begin with. We aren't going to try to bring this one up to as fine a level, basically repair the north shed, make it functional and do whatever has to be done elsewhere. These are a few beginning pics.

South shed and east end. The daylight to the right is where the collapse happened around the north side. The door on the south is a drive through between the log cribs, about 6" too low to drive the Lull through, darn the bad luck. I may to a little measuring and digging and repair on our way out.






Standing in the western end of the north shed, the drive thru between cribs on the right looking at the collapse. Shed rafters dangling from the log wall plate. Water running down into that shady organic pit just about ate the bobcat in there. The remaining shed plate was really off that post and supported on a tiny bit of siding. I fabbed up a steel angle gusset and attached it to post and plate to secure it temporarily as we dismantle that shed. It is very tender right now.





Outside looking back at the collapsed shed



  

Looking down the south shed, you can see all the plates are shot. The lap siding is chestnut so I'll try to be careful with it hoping to clean it up for rustic wainscot in the hunting cabin. I wasn't walking on the roof, the ladder was to get into the work basket when I boomed up there to start removing metal, you can see a few sheets I dropped off this afternoon.





This is a reminder shot, figure out the real load path. The load path should be the notched log corners. Look at the left door buck, that bowed 1x, that is the load path for that left log corner, something's up in that left hand corner.





Another something's up pic. This is just inside that low door on the south shed. That scarf is open and you can see a little thrust roll going on. I'm betting the post has leaned right and the knee brace has jacked it up. Pretty nice ladder hanging there. I found some rotting harnesses and bridles in the muck on that floor and a single bottom horse drawn plow in that bay. And dropped into a groundhog den.





I'm going to take straps and comealongs tomorrow and secure the log plates together so they cannot roll outward as I remove the shed roof. I noticed they had drifted out on the tie tenons. I'm figuring the relish is probably split out on them beyond the pegs. I can draw them back together hopefully and hide a steel plate on top.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2018, 06:57:40 AM »
This one will keep you challenged and busy. 
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2018, 09:09:03 AM »
Look forward to the posts and pictures as you work your magic!

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Log Barn #2
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2018, 10:59:00 PM »
We've gotten the north shed removed and done a little cleanup. Looking it over more as we've worked, it is predominantly chestnut. The roof laths over the log rafters are hand rived chestnut. It looks like it had 2 shake roofs, the first nailed with cut nails the second with wire box nails. Then we've seen both 3V and 5V barn metal up there. The north shed with the collapse problem had run into trouble between the first and second shake roofs and much of it was rebuilt with sawn oak rafters and sawn chestnut 1x6 skip sheathing, sort of a mix with some remaining log rafters and some oak sawn rafters. The majority of the repair area is what collapsed this time, I'm guessing the wind strips that corner of the roof first, that front left corner where the shed was in the pic below has the longest fetch up the valley and least protection from the wind.

This is where we left it yesterday with the north shed removed. The Lull is parked in the center drive thru and there are some of the chestnut roof boards leaning up on each side in that drive through, that's the angled stuff you are seeing in there. My skid steer is in the front left corner of the barnyard, that the yellow thing there for scale. The far right bay is TF rather than log.




This is the top plate of the log wall supporting both the main barn roof and the north shed roof before we removed that. I don't want to remove and replace this plate, that would entail lots of work and funds but you can see serious rot damage towards the far end. I'm trying to figure out how to work in another beam under it. The plate and log rafters are step lapped and pegged. You can see someone cut out several tie logs between the cribs up under that beam and there was an access to what was another loft up there. There are notches that indicate there were joists and a loft up there over the drive through at some point.




The ties between plates are drop in half dovetailed and then blocked tight. As the dovetail shrank it withdrew a couple of inches. You are looking at the outboard end of that retracted dovetail in the left upper in the plate in this view, then the block beside the strap which is around a half lap between plate sections, which is pegged down to the log below with a 2" peg, the plate is shimmed up to level here with a pretty ugly shim... I'll bet he meant to get back to that and forgot :D That is a shed rafter coming back towards us in that pic and then a bit of the tail of a main rafter heading up and over the log crib to its right, there is another far left in this shot and you can see a bit of the step lap rafter mortise there. The rived, split, lath boards over the rafters and some 5v tin over that. The plates and ties are poplar.




We removed the tumbled rock wall that was under the north shed sills, or what remained of all that. That was the treasure trove thus far. One pressed glass medicine bottle, a pint whiskey bottle, 3 plow points and several hinges, one door roller and a few rusty chunks of who knows what. Doubtless all sat on the sill and then fell into the loose fieldstone. We'll rebuild that shed as an open shed for round bale storage so I'll put in stone piers to support 6 posts for the new shed roof.

34 years of wedded bliss today, great steaks and an apple pie 8). I pm'ed back and forth with Furby today, he was laid over up in Salem but alas we couldn't hook up this trip. Hopefully he'll be back through this neck of the woods before too long.

Offline samandothers

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2018, 09:32:14 AM »
Congratulations on the anniversary!

The project is interesting and a plan is taking shape.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2018, 10:24:38 PM »
Incredible to think of the physical labor of putting these up.  Thats enough work to last a mans entire life.  


Are all of these sitting on rock footings or do any have buried posts like today's pole barns ? 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Don P

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2018, 12:00:02 AM »
Funny you should ask :D both of us are about sick of digging through the rocks that used to support that shed we tore off. Both barns sat on loose dry laid fieldstone. Over the years those have toppled and then become buried in the muck. The rocks under the corners of the log cribs are still there, at least the ones we've gotten to thus far. At that age and without treated lumber... probably at that age and even with treated, any earthfast buildings are long gone.

The labor involved in building this with nothing but axe and chisel is impressive, there isn't a saw mark in the original work. A few of the rocks had the skidsteer on its nose just scooting them around. That was all hand work.

 For where our new shed posts are going we dug  2' square holes 2' deep and poured those full to just below grade using bag mixed concrete and putting a lot of the smaller rocks, cleaned up, back into the mixer to make solid footings. We extended rebar up out of those footings and will build stone piers above grade to get the new posts up out of the dirt.

Back when I was mucking it out on the first day, the wind was blowing and I got something in my eye. I figured it was hay or antique manure and kept waiting for it to work itself out. I finally went in to the eye doc this week and we ain't sure what it was but it was well stuck into my cornea. It took her a good bit of digging to get it out and then a round of antibiotic eye drops and a stern lecture about safety glasses and coming in sooner. But its all good and her assistant said "You're just like my husband" so we decided its just a genetic defect and there isn't much hope of a cure.

I rehung the south shed door the first day and got it rolled out of the way on that side, the door is shot but the track and rollers can be made serviceable again. We saved the track off the collapsed north shed and will put that across the log cribs over the north side inside the new open north shed to close off the drive through. We found one of the rollers. After work today we went down the road to pick up a log on a nearby farm that the new owner wanted sawn up... fence wire hanging out of it so that was a bust but there is a collapsed barn there so we commenced to poking around and found 3 more of the same type of door roller and more track so we need to talk to him about that, hopefully a trade of some decent wood and we can make that happen.

On the first barn there was at one point a wooden silo on the north end. While we were working I found the old 5/8" steel rods that hooped it in the weeds. For the ties up top where the plates are spreading on this barn we'll try to use that rod to run across and pull them back into line. We straightened one back out pretty easily, very malleable steel and seems to be in good shape still.

This is a quick sketch of what we've come up with for the new shed post line so far, there was a stone wall under each group of 3 posts on each side of the drive through with a sill, we now have footings poured under each of those locations. Up top the pair of long plate beams is where we have the spreading problem going on where I might run the old silo rods across between them to pull that back together or at least hold it from getting worse. The double line up at the peak is where I'm trying to figure out how much that has sagged to give the plate spread I'm seeing;



Offline mike_belben

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2018, 04:14:54 PM »
Any idea what era these structures are from or known history on it?  Ive got to figure its 5 or 10 grown men working full time for a year or more to go from trees to barn.  
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2018, 10:12:54 PM »
I couldn't say with any certainty. The first barn, I know the family was here by the 1790's, the brick house that is the homeplace is old hand fired brick and stands where the original log house stood. I'm pretty well certain the barn was not at all new at the time of the civil war so I'm guessing the first half of the 19th century. My feeling is this barn is older but can't really say, my feeling is early 1800's on both of these.

The haylofts were hand loaded, out of the wagon in the drive thru up into the loft and then packed back in, quite a chore. Underfoot at that hayloft door is a cutout in the floor to drop hay into a feeder in each crib below. The feeders below are large dugout logs about 18' long with a tongue at one end that slips into the gap between logs and on a rock at the other end, these keep them off the floor.

The first barn had been reworked several times, it had a harder life and went through more changes and so was also in rougher shape. Around the 1950's someone cut out major sections of the upper logs way too close to the corners and didn't reinforce them, for throwing square bales up. Those short corner stacks of logs were rotating and just waiting to spit out, it was missing a good opportunity to collapse but not by much. Use changes as farming changes but he really didn't understand the structural damage he was doing. By the same token if a building is not useable it dies of neglect. I'm making changes to allow some equipment and hay to be stored in these. Hopefully that will preserve them and give them a reason to be maintained for a good while longer.

These barns were and are a major undertaking, there is a lot of heavy material and heavy handwork involved in these... try hewing a beam sometime, that gives me great respect for these men. I'm hewing with a sawmill and lifting with hydraulics and still find plenty of ways to strain. The dimensions these guys held with their axework is something else, time has taken its toll but measurements of their workmanship come in mighty close, they were good. We were talking the other day, nowadays we think of logwork and timberframing as arts unattainable by typical folk. These were probably built by farmers framing in the way of their time. They were just building with the materials they had in the ways they knew.

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #60 on: Yesterday at 03:39:50 AM »
I will be building a round timber barn with lagbolts and metal joinery..  actually have tried hewing a few recently and thats what made my jaw drop seeing how much axe work was in these structures.  Those were some calloused hands and worn out rotator cuffs!   One side of one log was enough for me to build an alaskan mill!  



Did these timbers get treated with anything over the years to keep rot and insects controlled?  
Revelation 3:20

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 07:05:52 AM »
In those days the farmers did everything by hand and were doing so by a young young age.  If you lived, a big if, long enough to become an adult your muscle structure was simply different than us soft modern gents.  Also, they normally would work on timbers for a year or more while doing other things too.  They'd stockpile timbers until the actual raising work (normally).  Actually getting the barn up was  community affair and people would sometimes come for a week if the location was very rural (like Don's area) so you might have a dozen or more folks working to get the structure up.  Mules were the tractors and they'd have gin poles working leverage.  Then in that area (my own family history is grim in this topic) they might have rented slaves for a week or two to help out.  Lots of richer families that owned slaves rented them out to poorer farmers when they needed them, much like renting any other equipment.  Sad times but that was one way timbers were hewed and it bears mentioning.  Thank goodness for technology.

That said, there are some die hard timber frame fans that hand hew today.  

Point here, don't be too hard on yourself Mike.  They might have had great muscles (because they had to) but if there was any opportunity to exploit technology or other labor savings they took advantage.  Even then the barn might take a couple of years to get built.  They'd have dropped the ax and taken your sawmill in a NY min.  In fact I think you'd have done just fine, better than me for sure.

DonP:  I was wondering how they roofed this barn?  Chestnut/oak shingles?


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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #62 on: Yesterday at 02:02:37 PM »
I hadnt really thought of that but i guess youre probably right.


Death by farming firewood for me.  My joints are not up to the task of hewing at all, just not enough miles left.  Ive got to get 30 more years out of this chassis.

 got a pretty good pile of debarked logs now.  Hoping to start laying them out in the coming year and raise as bents with a winch and jinpole off my forklift.  So im trying to make note of how the simpletons of yore made a structure stand 200yrs.
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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #63 on: Yesterday at 02:14:04 PM »
Ditto here, the pounder is about pounded  :D

The purlins over the rafters on this barn are hand split, rived, chestnut boards, or laths. It has had from what I can tell 2 shake roofs on it, the first was held on with cut nails, the second with wire nails. I know the Point Hope furnace, the first in our community was in operation by around 1800, but nails could also come in from outside the area. That furnace was started by the family of the neighboring farm to me. The remainder of that farm sold 15 or 20 years ago and passed out of that family's hands, the deed was a large land grant, signed by the king. When they came to the area there were 8 families in this part of the country, animals were brought into the barn each night for protection. I saw the other day where the eastern cougar was declared extinct in Feb this year. The last official sighting was in 1938 with unofficial sightings every year. We have removed most of the predators or really lowered their numbers compared to what the settlers had to protect their livestock from. After the Revolution the first court in the county was held in his barn and he represented the new county in Richmond. I do know he bought a mother and daughter from Africa when down there and released them in his will. He did own other slaves. There is a slave row in the cemetery near the first barn we worked on. Most farms here were smaller subsistence farms though. I've wondered if the real knowledgeable labor force that moved around building these barns was slaves, I don't know. Families were large at that time as well. It amazes me the number of people that lived in those little log cabins, tight quarters, incentive to work outside as long as possible each day.

I doubt these logs and timbers were ever treated. I like to give everything a good borate soak. I think we have 150 lbs or so in the first barn at this point and the owner sprayed again last week, cheap insurance.  You never know what you are getting into in an old building. I'm pretty sure what I scraped through on the floor was lime but have also disposed of some old brown jugs, something to keep in mind when you're working on old stuff.

Offline brianJ

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Re: Hickory Timbers?
« Reply #64 on: Yesterday at 02:32:36 PM »
incentive to work outside as long as possible each day.    

Also no TV or forestry forum to soak up hours each day.    Even with all the hand work the early settlers did, a lot would be accomplished working steady with all those hours available.    Heck even clumsy Brian would get the hang of swinging an hatchet at the correct angle.


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