iDRY Vacuum Kilns

Sponsors:

Whole Shop Stationary Dust Collector

Started by SlowJoeCrow, June 08, 2017, 09:47:12 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

YellowHammer

The centrifugal impellers react negatively to downstream back pressure.  It would be an interesting experiennt to eliminate that pressure by not going through the air exhaust filters temporarily.  See what effect that has on your inlet flow. 
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

SlowJoeCrow

Larry,  I think that will be a must for my setup.  I need to research sensors and see if that is something I can wire up myself of if I should just buy the one Oneida sells.

YH, that's interesting, are you saying the impellers with curved fins do better dealing with back pressure?  That's something I didn't consider when I put this together.  I guess I need to get one of those air velocity gauges that I see guys using on Youtube.  In my case, it would be easy to "bypass" the filters for testing - all I would have to do is pop the black plastic cleanout off the bottom of the filters.  Originally I was going to plumb the system so that it could vent outside in the summertime and through the filters in the wintertime, but you can see that I didn't do that.  This has taken a long enough time already and I need to get up and running.

samandothers

Is there an air return to ensure good flow?  Since the unit pulls air from the up stairs would it it need a return path to flow properly?   Do units that vent out side need an air return if in a insulated\sealed structure?

SlowJoeCrow

Yes, absolutely.  When you are moving that much air, you need to replace it.  In my case, the air simply travels back up the staircase located at the far side of the shop.  My building is set up just like a bank barn with garage bays in the lower level and I have my woodshop in the upper level which has one side at grade.  If you were venting outside from an insulated/sealed structure, the collector would create a vacuum in the shop, sucking air in through any crack available and would probably perform poorly due to the vacuum.

YellowHammer

Yes, backpressure, on the outlet side, or head loss on the inlet side, can have significant effect on this type of blower.  These types of blower, specifically this geometry with the primary dust collection bags designed to be on the outlet are designed as high flow trash blowers where all the airflow and the debris passes through the blower into the containment system.  So these are designed to be heavy duty but with loose tolerances designed to not choke on the heavy solids.  Lower efficiency, lower suction pressure, higher tolerance for trash.  Although these have very high airflows when unobstructed, any constriction, on either side, will cause a decrease in performance.  I have no experience with your outlet filters and don't know how much they will choke off flow.  Maybe not at all, maybe something significant.

The classic Oneida style suction blowers optimized for cyclones and bags mounted on the on the inlet side aren't designed to handle heavy solids because they are supposed to get removed before they get to the blower.  So this style is designed for clean air, tighter clearances, and are higher efficiency.  However, they can't handle trash, that's why all the primary filters are designed to be mounted on the inlet, vacuum, side.

Anyways, I would run a few quick experiments if you haven't done it to get to know the characteristics of the blower performance curves.  First I would unhook both the inlet and outlet, and let if run completely unobstructed.  This will be max performance, and I think it will be quite impressive.  Then I would start hooking your components back up, one by one, playing with it a little, and you will see which components seem to have the most effect on performance.  Maybe the outlet filters will have no effect, maybe they will.  Maybe inlet side has some things that can be improved, maybe not.  Play around.  You'll get a feel for it pretty quick.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

21incher

That looks really nice. 8)
It is funny but I learned a lot about material collection 2 years ago when I bought a Cyclone Rake for my yard. I purchased the 10 inch system that was recommended for my mower deck size. The hose would constantly plug up so the company sent out 2 engineers to look at it. Turned out it was the size of the hose with my type of grass causing the problem. They downgraded me to a 8 Inch system and that is unstoppable. The 10 inch hose had a slightly lower static pressure, but greatly reduced velocity in the hose so material would drop out of the air flow and start to plug the collection tube. As the flow started getting restricted the static pressure of the blower would drop causing material to block the hose. The 8 inch system has only a slightly higher static pressure but a higher velocity stream through the hose that keeps the material suspended and has never plugged again. There seems to be a little bit of magic involved getting a system tuned properly.  :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

Don P

Quote from: SlowJoeCrow on January 09, 2018, 10:17:42 AM
Yes, absolutely.  When you are moving that much air, you need to replace it.  In my case, the air simply travels back up the staircase located at the far side of the shop.  My building is set up just like a bank barn with garage bays in the lower level and I have my woodshop in the upper level which has one side at grade.  If you were venting outside from an insulated/sealed structure, the collector would create a vacuum in the shop, sucking air in through any crack available and would probably perform poorly due to the vacuum.

I forgot to leave a door open in a large shop with a 40hp dust system. We couldn't open the door until we shut down. Especially keep this in mind if there is any combustion equipment in the building, the makeup air will come down its chimney and the shop becomes the flue.

SlowJoeCrow

I think other members have weighed in about using a dust collector that vents outside along with wood stoves... the two don't go together!!

I didn't really consider the differences between "through-flow" blowers vs cyclone blowers that are mostly clean air, I guess I will find out if bites me down the road.  Right now, I can stand in the woodshop and run the cyclone and my old Jet DC1100 at the same time and the airflow/suction is greater from the cyclone.  But I don't have a good way of comparing, I'm just holding my hand up to the pipe and feeling.  I will definitely remove the end cap on the filter stack and see if I can tell a difference.  The filters are 18" diameter by 62" tall pleated filters from Oneida, the biggest they sell.

I guess if I have performance issues down the road, I can look at improving components to help increase efficiency, but I don't think that I will have issues.  I have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to cost.  For example I could have went with even larger radius solid sweeping 90's compared to the large radius adjustable elbows that I am using.  But they are $40.63 compared to $17.37, which adds up.  For now my goal is to get the machines hooked up.  I am betting that I will have just as much or more money in the pipe and fittings as I do in the dust collector itself.

SlowJoeCrow

For anyone curious, here is a parts list with cost associated for the cyclone build only.  This doesn't include any pipe or fittings upstream of the cyclone.

Woodmaster:
3hp blower  $575

Oneida:
Super Dust Deputy XL  $239
Filter Assembly  $529.21
8" x 6" Reducer  $14.23
24 Gauge Adjustable Large Radius Elbow $17.37 x2 = $34.74
6" Angle Ring w/ Precrimped Pipe Collar  $32.98 x3 = $98.94
6" x 6" x 6" Pants Wye Joint  $90.42

Lee Valley:
6" PVC Flex Hose (10' Length, only used about 4')  $59.00
6" Bridge Hose Clamps  $8.20 x4 = $32.8


Misc:
Blue Barrels  $20
Foil Tape, Silicon Sealant, Nuts, Bolts, Screws, Rivets $20

Total:  $1713.34 (plus tax)

I wanted to see if the cost savings was worth the extra work involved in building my own system, but it's very hard to compare my build with Oneida's stock dust collectors.  Their cheapest 3hp unit is the V3000 at $1859.  At first glance it doesn't seem worth it to build your own but here are the differences:

Pro's for my build:
- wall mount for Oneida is extra, mine is custom fit to go exactly where I wanted it
- Oneida's fan housing is resin, Woodmaster's is cast aluminum, along with the impeller, way more heavy duty
- Oneida filter is much smaller at 13" diameter by 36" long
- Oneida dust drum is only 35 gallons, mine has dual 55 gallon barrels

Pro's for Oneida V3000:
- Ready to install,
- Optimized for efficiency
- 7" inlet vs. my 6" inlet

The more expensive 3HP Dust Gorilla Pro is on sale for $2620, a large difference in price.

I could have used cheaper fittings, especially the pants wye, the angle ring collars and clamps, etc but I am glad that I used the heavy duty ones from Oneida, they will hold up in the long run.  Overall I am happy with the build so far, but I need to get the pipe network up and installed, which will take a bit more.

I welcome any feedback you all have to offer, thanks!




samandothers

I am trying to decide whether to place the dust collector outside or inside. I would rather have outside to reduce noise and possible inside dust.  However I am not sure how to deal with air return and the heat loss of such a system.  This would be in my basement.  Part of which would be conditioned and have a wood stove.  I don't want to operate with outside door open in the winter.  Now is the time to plan before house building.
I will be using a Older Grizzly 4hp unit with 4 bags I got off CL a few years ago.  Currently plans are to build a closet/room for the collector on one end of the shop with some insulation for sound with furnace type air return and filters for air exiting and re-entering the basement shop.

DDW_OR

Quote from: samandothers on January 10, 2018, 11:27:21 AM
.......Currently plans are to build a closet/room for the collector on one end of the shop with some insulation for sound with furnace type air return and filters for air exiting and re-entering the basement shop.
good idea.
"let the machines do the work"

SlowJoeCrow

x2, build a closet to keep it in, sounds like a good plan, that's what I would do in a basement shop.  Make it big enough to house the air compressor as well if you use one.

btulloh

x3 on the closet.  I put one outside about 10 years ago and it did have provision for return air.  The return air was not heated and in the winter it would take the shop from 60 degrees to 30 degrees in about 3 minutes.  It was a space thing at the time and it was my best option, but I've move on from that now.
HM126

21incher

You can get a kit for my woodstove that uses 100% outside air. I think most better stoves have that feature for tight houses these days. My Grizzly canister style collector is quieter then the old bag style one I started with. I think having the folds in the filter helps keep the sound from coming straight out at you.   :)
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

samandothers

Good to hear closet idea is the best approach. 

I thought about putting the compressor in there too since both are 240 v.  I was concerned about having the dust in the area of the compressor.

DDW_OR

Quote from: samandothers on January 11, 2018, 09:15:41 AM
Good to hear closet idea is the best approach. 

I thought about putting the compressor in there too since both are 240 v.  I was concerned about having the dust in the area of the compressor.
plumb the air intake for the compressor to use either the shop air or the outside air, not the closet air.
if you are using the compressor a lot then think about adding an air dryer. that will help reduce the water build up in the tank.
is your compressor a vertical one?
"let the machines do the work"

Kbeitz

Quote from: DDW_OR on January 11, 2018, 11:07:42 AM
Quote from: samandothers on January 11, 2018, 09:15:41 AM
Good to hear closet idea is the best approach. 

I thought about putting the compressor in there too since both are 240 v.  I was concerned about having the dust in the area of the compressor.
plumb the air intake for the compressor to use either the shop air or the outside air, not the closet air.
if you are using the compressor a lot then think about adding an air dryer. that will help reduce the water build up in the tank.
is your compressor a vertical one?

You dont want the compressor intake sucking cold air from outside ether.
You get lots of sweat that way. Take the inlet air from your heated room.
Collector and builder of many things.
Love machine shop work
and Wood work shop work
And now a saw mill work

samandothers

It is a vertical unit.  It makes sense to have an air intake exterior of the closet.  I will use air from the basement and not exterior.  Will look into the dryer.

Thanks again!

SlowJoeCrow

Here are a few pictures of the dust collection main being put up in my humble shop.  It is 6" diameter 26 gauge pipe.  The blast gates are there just for testing air flow and aren't in their final locations.  I need more pipe and fittings, which I have made a list and now ordered from Oneida. 







While I wait for that to come, I am wiring a 30 amp 230 volt circuit to power the jointer, planer, table saw and radial arm saw in their new locations.  Before I moved them, I powered them off of a large 12 gauge extension cord since I didn't no where they would end up.  What a pain that has been, plugging and unplugging all the time with a cord on the floor and in the way.  The new outlets will be in the ceiling close to where the dust collection drops are for the machines, that way I can minimize vertical obstructions.  Of course part of the wiring job includes putting longer cords on three of the machines since the stock cords won't reach the 10' ceiling.

This shop has come a long way, but has a long way to go until it is finished.

samandothers

Very nice!

Could you run a vertical member down with the air duct and mount an electrical box near the machines and eliminate the longer machine cord?

SlowJoeCrow

I thought about that but decided to go the route with the longer cords, I really don't know which would be better.

Crusarius

I would prefer to have a plug in a location that I did not need a ladder to unhook it. Especially when cleaning or setting up. I am sure I missed what your ceiling height is.

SlowJoeCrow

Very good point, hmm, I may need to rethink my approach.  10' ceiling.

Crusarius

if you have all of your equipment on separate breakers you can just shut off the breaker. That would be the next best way to do it.

SlowJoeCrow

Well, that is just as bad since my breaker box is in the lower level of the building, it would actually be quicker to use a ladder in that case.

Thank You Sponsors!