The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

KNOW WHAT?
Between February 12, 2018 and June 18, 2018, this space displayed 13 Million, 871 Thousand and 87 times.



Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

Woodshax Outdoor Vending Solutions

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat



Author Topic: New vs. older harvesters?  (Read 1481 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline gman98

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: Northern Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
New vs. older harvesters?
« on: August 19, 2017, 09:18:13 PM »
Hello guys.  Over the winter I learned the ins and outs of cable logging in oversized timber.  I truly enjoyed cable logging.  Unfortuanately in the spring the rug was pulled out and most of the last of the land company cable logging is now gone.  Over the summer I've had the opportunity to work with an intensive land company and have began to see the benefits of mechanized logging with a processor and forwarder.  This has gotten me interested in possibly purchasing a harvester of my own down the road.  I was wondering what you guys would prefer over a new harvester with a large price tag or an older harvester that will be easier to pay off?  The majority of the wood will be softwood and I am looking at a wheeled harvester.  I know the reduced maintenance and repairs of a new harvester is a plus, but is it enough to give up the freedom of a paid off machine?  What are the thoughts of some of our mechanical loggers here on the forum?

Thanks
Stihl 362 c-m
Husqvarna 562xp
Husqvarna 359
Husqvarna 245rx thinning saw

Offline barbender

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5504
  • Age: 42
  • Location: Deer River MN
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2017, 10:17:41 PM »
If you are going to get into a new or newer machine, you better have contracts lined up. I don't think I've ever seen anyone around here start out in a brand new machine, other than large logging contractors who decided to add a CTL team. A lot of guys start out in machines that are in the 10-15k hour range.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Corley5

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7859
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Wolverine, Michigan USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Wolverine, Michigan
    • Share Post
    • Whittaker Farms
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2017, 10:43:26 PM »
If you get a "seasoned" machine you'll need the skills to keep it working.  Working knowledge of computers, electronics, electrical systems, hydraulics, combinations of those as well as being a very good mechanic with knowledge of powertrain repair are a must to keep one working.  Paying and waiting for a mechanic to fix one isn't economically feasible.  Parts for some older machines are fast becoming obsolete.   Good luck  ;) ;D :) :)
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2373
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2017, 11:22:55 PM »
If you wanna make a million at it, better start with two.

You get a job to make a house payment.  You dont make a house payment just to have a job.

Dont forget to include a million dollar auto policy on your semi truck because youll probably need one to roll into the pulp yard. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Riwaka

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 271
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2017, 11:33:31 PM »
Something to have in mind - in some places in Europe?, the older logging machinery with the low tier rating diesel engines is not favoured for use in the forests (The contractors with the higher tier rating equipment are going to get more work).
That is probably part of reading up and knowing all the environmental regulations as they are concerned with logging/ forestry in your area. So you might have to consider putting a newer 'cleaner' engine in an old machine at some point if the EPA need to be kept happy.

Perhaps finding a good business partner/ mentor rather than trying to fund the initial machine purchases entirely by yourself and trying to avoid employing a machine operator with no financial stake in the operation (except their weekly wage) or buying the well maintained older machine with a known history off a mentor, rather than buying an unknown machine.

Figuring out the back up plan if the logging gets shutdown (seasonal weather, economy etc) to keep some income coming in to pay off the old machine or pay for repairs etc, driving for the local earth moving, trucking company and keeping in contact with them etc. And may be keeping tight with the trucking company so they don't charge you too much when your machine needs shifting between forests and to the workshop(if major repairs are required).

Knowing which brands of old equipment still have parts available or can be rebuilt, what parts fail and the work arounds (if parts are obsolete or hard to source)

The Timberpro/ Timbco and a few of the forwarders (if the terrain is ok) can be used as harvester/ processors before swapping to the grapple to load, carry and stack the wood. Production would be less than a harvester/ forwarder combination, but it allows the commencement of a mechanical operation.  or possibly hiring one of the machines (forwarder or harvester so you don't buy too much ancient old iron in the start up phase of your business) or having a contract cutter fell/ bunch the trees  for you and you come along with a forwarder to process and carry out the logs.





Offline bushmechanic

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 887
  • Age: 47
  • Location: Milton,Newfoundland,Canada
  • Gender: Male
  • Someone else has it worse than you.
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 05:21:15 AM »
Oh boy is this ever a complex question indeed! We run two older harvesters with high hours on them. It's a constant battle to keep them running and cutting wood. What I personally would suggest is if you go the old route then you had better be a good welder, fabricator, mechanic as well as an operator. There is nothing wrong with older iron as long as you keep it in good repair, wintertime or spring breakup is a good time to do repairs rather than when your trying to use it but this will usually be beyond your control. Wheeled harvesters are the best but really complex to repair as they are purpose built and so many systems are tied together. A good entry machine would be an excavator with a simple harvesting head like a Logmax 5000 for example. Good luck in whatever you decide! 

Offline gman98

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
  • Age: 2014
  • Location: Northern Maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 08:56:38 AM »
If you are going to get into a new or newer machine, you better have contracts lined up. I don't think I've ever seen anyone around here start out in a brand new machine, other than large logging contractors who decided to add a CTL team. A lot of guys start out in machines that are in the 10-15k hour range.
I should add that 1) this will be on land company land where the contract is part of machine ownership, and 2) the land company is a partner in helping you buy the machine.
Stihl 362 c-m
Husqvarna 562xp
Husqvarna 359
Husqvarna 245rx thinning saw

Offline Ken

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 1092
  • Age: 51
  • Location: New Brunswick
  • Gender: Male
  • Forester
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 09:23:03 AM »
I started with an older well worn ctl set-up and if I hadn't made a change it would have ruined me.  If you are getting into bed with industry as a partner in your machine purchase be prepared to be pushed to produce.  Many others who have tried the same arrangement here across the border in New Brunswick have not been successful.  Some have prospered but the majority do not.
Lots of toys for working in the bush

Offline Corley5

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 7859
  • Age: 49
  • Location: Wolverine, Michigan USA
  • Gender: Male
  • Wolverine, Michigan
    • Share Post
    • Whittaker Farms
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 10:22:09 AM »
My Fabtek was well worn too.  Rather than updating to another harvester I'm getting out when this sale is finished and moving on to other things .  I'm over being a logger ;) ;D :) 
Burnt Gunpowder is the Smell Of Freedom

Offline wannaergo

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
  • Age: 25
  • Location: UP
  • Gender: Male
  • Work while I'm young, sleep when I'm dead!
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2017, 10:38:06 AM »
First off, I would be quite nervous about partnering with the land company... once you are committed to them for x amount of time, they can put you in whatever kind of timber they want, and you will most likely lose the ability to turn down jobs that you can't make money on. As far as old vs new, I always say that you will always be paying someone, usually either the bank for new, or parts/mechanic for old. We have owned old equipment that we had to trade in, because it was costing too much to keep it running, but we have also owned new equipment that broke down so much that it was traded in after only two years. I have an uncle who owns a small excavator carrier with an older dangle head on it that I'm fairly sure is paid off, but he does a lot of work to it to keep it running. He still produces wood, because he just bought a brand new ponsse forwarder. Either way you go, it's a gamble. If there's one thing I would stress, it would be do not buy cat forestry equipment. Both of the pieces we bought new almost broke us.
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
2014 Cat 564
Husky 385

Offline chevytaHOE5674

  • Forester
  • *
  • Posts: 3031
  • Location: Ontonagon Mi
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2017, 01:02:44 PM »
I ran an older high hour (23K) wheeled harvester and the downtime was a killer keeping the machine running. We spent more time wrenching than cutting, and cutting is what pays the bills.

As for getting into bed with a land company as your backer be very very cautious. As said then can stick you in whatever timber they want and you usually can't say no. So they may have some garbage wood on garbage ground that no independent guys will touch with a 10 foot pole that you will be forced to cut. Suddenly you will be trying to cut 20hours a day just to break even because the wood just doesn't add up (been there and seen it happen first hand).

Offline snowstorm

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3650
  • Location: maine
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2017, 03:37:00 PM »
If you are going to get into a new or newer machine, you better have contracts lined up. I don't think I've ever seen anyone around here start out in a brand new machine, other than large logging contractors who decided to add a CTL team. A lot of guys start out in machines that are in the 10-15k hour range.
I should add that 1) this will be on land company land where the contract is part of machine ownership, and 2) the land company is a partner in helping you buy the machine.
could this be irving?? Like Ken said only a few survive . Don't they require the machines to run 20 hours a day. The good part they own lots of wood and have a market for it. You might be better off to run some else's machine. There is a lot more to this biz than one would think

Offline Jamie_C

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
  • Location: Truro,NS
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 01:58:54 PM »
If they start talking about needing 100 to 120 productive hours a week just to make your payments then turn around and run in the opposite direction. The big companies are great at showing you all kinds of numbers that they claim are easily attained but in actual fact will require the machine to be scheduled for 24 hrs a day 7 days a week  to stay afloat.

Offline lopet

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 1141
  • Age: 58
  • Location: SW Ontario Canada
  • Gender: Male
  • Do not climb any higher your comportable falling !
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 08:50:39 PM »
I may wanna trow in another aspect and that's your age. Don't know how old you are, but with a new machine you probably gonna be in for about twenty years or more because you always will be upgrading again. I definitely wouldn't wanna jump in at age 50.  At 40 maybe,  at 30 I am just thinking how many hours I have worked in a week back then.  100 hours a week to stay a float seems a lot to me and you have to ask your self If any other job isn't paying any better or running a machine for somebody else.  If you're young and ambitious that's a different story, but I am just thinking what's gonna happen with  the wood prices or stumpage if more and more machines putting more and more wood on the landing.
But then again, what do I know, I am just a little guy but I don't have to produce that much to make a living.  Good luck with your decision. 
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

Offline Duramax3500

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Lake Nebagamon,Wisconsin
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 07:10:01 AM »
Not to get off subject but the new CTL machines coming out that produce more and more wood is what keeps stumpage prices going up and up, like what was said they almost need to run 24/7 to make payments let alone make money unless you r in bed with the mill,u might only make 10 a cord sometimes because u had to pay an outrageous price for summer stumpage, the DNR had a recent 10 acre sale of aspen,being just a small show I had a good shot of getting it cheap,wrong!!!! 5 guys bid on it ,all big CTL companies and if I would have bid that high I would have made 20 a cord cutting by hand and skidding,bucking on the landing,just frustrating,like barbender says, you better have a long list of wood lined up,  basically what I'm saying is stumpage prices are never going to come down again as long as they keep making CTL machines the way they are ,thanks for letting me rant   :-[

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2373
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 10:25:54 AM »
Twenty like dollars?  You got several hundred thousand dollars of equipment on site and get paid $20 USD to extract a cord of timber?

Am i getting that right?
Revelation 3:20

Offline Duramax3500

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Lake Nebagamon,Wisconsin
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm new!
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2017, 03:06:28 PM »
Me,no I have an 8 thousand dollar skidder and chainsaw, what I'm saying is they are paying more for stumpage than I can get paid from the mill,example,say I get paid 75 a cord for pulp, stumpage is going for 55 a cord, that's how I would only make twenty,CTL is out of control in my area, it's the same 4 or 5 companies who get the state and county sales weather they are 200 cord or 8000 cord sales,that's what I'm saying,unless it's an awful sale ,which we all know are real money makers :)

Offline nativewolf

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 918
  • Location: Delaplane, VA
  • Forester
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2017, 10:39:23 PM »
Wish I could get 55/cord here in VA for pulp (as a landowner). 

 
Liking Walnut

Offline mike_belben

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2373
  • Location: Middle TN
  • Pulp Friction
    • Share Post
Re: New vs. older harvesters?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2017, 11:47:42 PM »
Alright, thanks for clearing that up. 

Theres a never ending flow of pulp trucks driving off this plateau, all day every day.  Pays around $30-32 per ton.  Hows that compare?

There must be some CTL operators here but i havent seen one.   Every person ive known to have timber cut has been a split payment.. Ive been wanting to hear how a stumpage bid compares to a 50/50.  Just seems really risky to gamble on a trees soundness.  I know id be ruined by it.
Revelation 3:20


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

xx
Cut to length harvesters

Started by Jenneville on Forestry and Logging

51 Replies
8899 Views
Last post May 25, 2015, 10:35:52 PM
by JLeBouton
xx
Wheeled harvesters?

Started by gman98 on Forestry and Logging

9 Replies
572 Views
Last post June 10, 2017, 10:17:03 PM
by wannaergo
xx
Hahn Harvesters

Started by Bobus2003 on Forestry and Logging

4 Replies
4175 Views
Last post May 29, 2010, 10:15:14 AM
by gunman63
xx
Wheel Harvesters

Started by Skeans1 on Forestry and Logging

47 Replies
3784 Views
Last post February 09, 2018, 08:21:30 PM
by Skeans1
 


Powered by EzPortal