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Horse Logging

Started by dirthawger, October 06, 2017, 03:29:25 AM

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ronnie tucker

I use mules to log. I can not get to all of the timber that people want me to cut. I need help to cut and drive the truck. I live in middle tn.i only cut saw timber no pulpwood.

mike_belben

I really think the easiest way in is with a dozer. I didnt even want to log, but when you got a dozer people with trees want you to doze stuff.  The trees are almost automatically yours 100% with no split.  No one ever said to me i want a pond and you pay for the trees itll take out.  No.. Pond, pad and pasture means any tree is in the way and needs hauled off, and its completely mine no argument.  Plus you owe me money to boot.


This gives you A) money to operate from your dozing fee and B) trees to drive around trying to sell.  You need trees of all sorts to find out which mills pay and what timber produces for a rate.  Its much better to get stiffed by the mill on free trees than on trees you bought (stumpage.. Very very risky for a noob) or logs delivered with a 50/50 split to landowner. 

You will find very quickly that only way for a slow guy to do good is in big nice timber and thats what every logger is sniffing for and every landowner is awful proud of (read: pay me.)   Small diameter scraggly pulp.. Forget it.  I just refused a 48 acre pulp clearcut today. No way i can move it fast enough because its tremendously time consuming and low rate.  But i can break my back for free on it no question.

In pulp, you will handle 3000 stems to make what veneer will pay in 30.  Which job sounds easier?  When your machine springs a 5 gallon per day leak that you cant get at until its back home.. you might be able to finish off the 2 acre job with 30 good trees.  But not the 40 acre pulp deal.  Its all about the rate of pay per hour.  Meanwhile that leak dont care, its sprayin your money into the dirt.  No machine, no pay.

Start with a 6 way dozer and winch that you can move with your ton truck.  Get a dual tandem pintle trailer with removeable bunks, not too tall so you can load it with a bobcat.  Learn the game.

If you still want in, let the dozer buy you an old grapple skidder with cable when that first big logging job finally does arrive.  A grapple will let you move fast enough to do okay in low grade timber (remember its stems per hour onto the trailer that counts.)  Keep the dozer around, youll surely need to build haul roads, cut drainage and get things unstuck or flipped back over.


The owner of the biggest mechanized outfit in my region told me theres only two ways to make money at timber.  Be huge or stay tiny.  I prefer tiny.  Tiny doesnt get audited or sued like huge does.
Praise The Lord

dirthawger

yea I've thought about the dozer route, but im thinking of going ahead and jumping in with my tractor and 1 ton, but I'll at least need a forwarding trailer. As far as work goes most loggers just put an ad in the paper?

Horselog

No I would say that most loggers do not put an ad in the paper.  There's a lot of ways that work comes in, and most of them require you to be in the middle of the logging industry and having lots of contacts. 

I have a website that I get a fair amount of work from.  I present what I do that sets me apart from the competition, which in my case is horses and low impact harvesting.  In your case it may be low impact harvesting, but you need something that you specifically define that sets you apart from the big outfits.  Maybe personal service, handling smaller sites, low impact work or some combination.  But I set it all out on my website and organic web searches yield a part of the work I get, maybe 30%-40%. 

I also make friends with the log buyers and foresters at the local mills and they send jobs my way that they know fit well with my operation. 

I also put road side signs at the jobs I'm doing, often that's the best advertising.  They can actually see my work as they drive by and see how little it looks like it's been logged.  I've gotten some of my best jobs from signs. 

I also get in with the local foresters that put harvests up for sale and get on their mailing lists so that if they have a sale coming up I get the info on it.  Theses are usually lump sum sales, and are better to get into after you get more experience under your belt.  But when you do, they can be a cash cow if you do it right.

And good old fashioned word of mouth is still probably my number one way I get work.  The key to keeping this working is good customer service.  Make sure your customers are happy before, during and after the job you do, and if they're not try to work it out for them.  Happy customers are your best advertising.

What size tractor do you have?  I recommend some kind of attachment that would allow you to get the front of the log off the ground.

Are you talking about hauling logs with your one ton?  If so, I would recommend you get a bigger truck, at least a 2 ton, maybe one just under CDL.  They really don't cost any more per mile to drive and you'll easily haul twice as much or more, and you'll have better brakes.  I've always found trucks under CDL that have air brakes, they stop the best.

Benjamin Harris
Appalachian Mountains of Virginia
horse_logger@me.com

mike_belben

Find out if you can log on "farm tags" in your area.  In rural regions logging and farming are still tolerated but "under CDL" doesnt mean anything anymore to leftern states and counties.  Especially to DOT.  Air brakes is automatic cdl no matter the GVW to fmcsa.

Theres my $3000 lesson in progress.  Juice brake, 23k truck and 14k trailer weighing less than 19k, all registered and insured, hauling nothing.  Not for hire all over it.



Got a criminal charge for driving it without a CDL-A. 


If youre in a big govt state or have to drive past some scales or a significant distance down the interstate to get to the mills.. Id say dont quit your day job.  DOT can break anyone they want. 
Praise The Lord

TKehl

Dude...  That sucks.   :(
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

grouch

Quote from: mike_belben on October 10, 2017, 09:02:51 AM
Find out if you can log on "farm tags" in your area.  In rural regions logging and farming are still tolerated but "under CDL" doesnt mean anything anymore to leftern states and counties.  Especially to DOT.  Air brakes is automatic cdl no matter the GVW to fmcsa.

Theres my $3000 lesson in progress.  Juice brake, 23k truck and 14k trailer weighing less than 19k, all registered and insured, hauling nothing.  Not for hire all over it.



Got a criminal charge for driving it without a CDL-A. 


If youre in a big govt state or have to drive past some scales or a significant distance down the interstate to get to the mills.. Id say dont quit your day job.  DOT can break anyone they want. 

What's with the political preaching?

When I add 23k and 14k, I get 37k, which means pretty much all them "leftern" states like Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, gee, might even be most of them, are going to require you to have a CDL.

Might be that vehicles of a gross GVWR over 26,000 lbs handle a bit differently than a SUV. Do you want the stereotypical soccer mom or unhandy dad hauling freight, tailgating, hopping curbs and running lights while texting and watching the game?
Find something to do that interests you.

TKehl

Quote from: mike_belben on October 10, 2017, 09:02:51 AM
Find out if you can log on "farm tags" in your area.

This is still a good point made.  Some states make allowances, others don't. 

FWIW, in MO, 42k and under with farm tags is allowed and exempt from federal regs as long as it is in state, within 150 miles of the farm, and it is farm related.  Farm related is where it gets grey as hauling logs is not defined.  If hauling logs or lumber from land you own within 150 miles, you are probably ok here.  Buying logs to haul on farm tags greyer.  A for hire log hauler on farm tags = trouble, but it's all subjective and hard to prove... 

This is why I sold my IH S1900 and dropped to a F350.  Decided I was in the business of producing things, not the transportation industry. 

Of course some get away with murder like the local guy who runs an F450 hauling scrap metal with _____ Scrap decals on both sides, ...running farm plates. 
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

killamplanes

If you have learned one thing from this topic. Is that there's alot that goes into "logging". Not as a hobby but a sustainable income worthy of calling it a career. Starts at buying timber thru delivered to a mill. And a whole bunch of things in the middle. My2cents
jd440 skidder, western star w/grapple,tk B-20 hyd, electric, stihl660,and 2X661. and other support Equipment, pallet manufacturing line

dirthawger

Oh no, i never considered this as a hobby, i almost got a job logging right before i got hired at the mines. I know there's a ton that goes into logging,  which is why I'm in no rush,  i don't even know what legal documents id need to get started.  Just trying to get started.   Ive been thinking about maybe putting my 1 ton to work hauling logs just to get started.  Id also like to work part time for a logger but having trouble finding any logging companies in my area.  I have talked to a guy named Tim Carrol that runs cedar river horse logging and offers classes on horse logging,  altough I'm not sure how much one could learn just taking a class.

mike_belben

Quote from: grouch on October 10, 2017, 03:16:25 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on October 10, 2017, 09:02:51 AM
Find out if you can log on "farm tags" in your area.  In rural regions logging and farming are still tolerated but "under CDL" doesnt mean anything anymore to leftern states and counties.  Especially to DOT.  Air brakes is automatic cdl no matter the GVW to fmcsa.

Theres my $3000 lesson in progress.  Juice brake, 23k truck and 14k trailer weighing less than 19k, all registered and insured, hauling nothing.  Not for hire all over it.



Got a criminal charge for driving it without a CDL-A. 


If youre in a big govt state or have to drive past some scales or a significant distance down the interstate to get to the mills.. Id say dont quit your day job.  DOT can break anyone they want. 

What's with the political preaching?

When I add 23k and 14k, I get 37k, which means pretty much all them "leftern" states like Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, gee, might even be most of them, are going to require you to have a CDL.



Life is political, accept it. If DOT was about safety theyd be confiscating phones, not trucks.


Ive worked on quite a few triaxle dumps this year. Most of them not even tagged.  You dont need a cdl to have a driving job here.. Just show up every day. Theres interstate and theres county.  Two different worlds.
Praise The Lord

MbfVA

 In VA, 26,000 and under GVWR is non-cdl, regardless of airbrakes, I think.  If you're driving with farm use tags legally (there's that grey stuff), no CDL required, regardless.    You really have to read the rules in your state.  And some state troopers here in Virginia are stricter than others, from what I hear.   For example they may come in and talk to anybody parked at a restaurant with a farm use tag, though that does not constitute a problem under my understanding of the rules.  Like he said, those gray areas.

I took the CDL test, and got my learners, but not my final license. Pretty basic stuff, easy to learn from books on the subject & studying the trucks themselves a little bit. Understanding airbrakes was a big part of it, for example, I never realized that air keeps the brakes unengaged, that pressing your brake pedal lets off the air pressure to let the brakes engage.   That's why they call the foot brake the emergency brake.   Took the test about 15 years ago, hope I'm remembering all that correctly.  We bought two Mack dump trucks, but I never drove them on the road.

How many of you knew that George Westinghouse invented airbrakes, and that using them on trains in the late 1800s cut the death rate from accidents by a  whopping amount?  Learned that from a radio thing called "a moment in time", locally produced from Richmond Virginia.

That's one reason why I never have completely understood the line in the "wreck of the old 97" about losing the airbrakes.  Lose the air, and the brakes go on, stopping the train, but maybe the writer was imprecise.  The railroad salvaged that locomotive and had it back on the road within a couple months, from what I recall.

Things got hairy around here about 10 or 15 years ago when somebody driving carelessly, tho' probably with a CDL, cannot recall, took a curve too sharply and turned a big trailer & bulldozer over, killing a woman in a car.
www.ordinary.com (really)

MbfVA

By the way, more to the original subject, horse logging in Virginia seems to be going out of fashion.  Other than a guy in Floyd County who gets himself on television once in a while, I can't think of anyone else doing it.  Word on the street is, or perhaps the word on the farm or in the woods is, horse logging can be harder on the land than usual methods.

And as has been observed above, it is not the low-cost form of logging.

My own opinion: it's more the methodology, the mindset, and in some cases the education, of the logger that determines how messed up things are when they leave.  For example, Justin LaMountain, who used to log for the rich and famous in Northern Virginia (that's a crowd that it is heavily influenced by the kinds of things represented as good by horse loggers) was also a conservation minded guy, who talked in scientific detail about things like only taking out the trees no longer contributing to the forest, making good use of that masters degree in forestry he had from Duke University.  I think the truth was he just happened to be a horse logger as well.  Whack em cut them, leave no tree standing is the working philosophy of some guys around here.  Some of them well educated.
www.ordinary.com (really)

mike_belben

Youre a little rusty on airbrakes.  The brake chambers have springs that apply full lockup to the rear brakes for parking and emergency.  To move the truck takes about 50 psi against those springs to release them on truck and trailer.  If you lost air, poof, springs would redeploy and lock the truck up.  You dump the air to park the truck too.

The foot pedal is your service brake and that is applying air to the chambers in proportion to how much you press the pedal.  The service side does not work by venting off air.   Theyre a pretty complex system when you first look at the schematic for a whole truck and trailer.  Lotta valves with lotta names.    you cant flub one little bit of the brake portion of your skills test. 
Praise The Lord

MbfVA

I didn't express myself clearly, and I made a quick edit on the post. My basic understanding is in keeping with what you said, but, right, I don't know all the tech side.

I did double check, and airbrakes or not has nothing to do with CDL in Virginia-- it's the GVWR.  I'm looking now for a crane truck with a dump body, and I prefer to stay with class 6 so that's not even an issue (and a lot easier for me to handle as a non-every day big truck driver).
www.ordinary.com (really)

Crusarius

I jump in our 80,000 pound air braked ladder truck and take off as fast as she will go with nothing more than a class D license. Gotta love volunteer fire departments :) If the red lights are on it adds at least 20 mph to your top speed. ask anyone who thinks we drive to fast.

Babylon519

I have no interest in becoming a logger, but this has been a very interesting thread to read. You guys sure bring a lot of good info to the party, and always with a helpful attitude even when the message is one of caution or "looking before you leap". That's what makes this forum indispensable. Happy Friday The 13th!   - Jason
Jason
1960 IH B-275 - same vintage as me!
1960 Circle Sawmill 42"
Stihl MS440 & a half-dozen other saws...

MbfVA

 whether we talked you into it or out of it, maybe it'll be your lucky day after all👌
www.ordinary.com (really)

dirthawger

Nope, hard or not im still very driven to horse log. Though im not sure how im going to do it. Im looking at either Cedar River horse logging or healing harvest forest foundation. They both offer an apprenticeship. Even with that it will still be hard i know.  I don't want to get rich just a living for my family one day.

TKehl

I'm a fan of "follow your passion."  Followed by "don't quite your day job".  At least until you have a bunch of work lined up and it looks sustainable. 

Many will say something can't be done.  It may be true or they may not have looked at it in the right light...

I've accomplished the most by using time and money in this order:

Needs
Dreams
Wants

Many people get distracted by wants and then lack the resources to chase dreams. 

I do hope you keep us updated on your journey.
In the long run, you make your own luck – good, bad, or indifferent. Loretta Lynn

mike_belben

I definitely say go for it.  One guy runs a marathon, why shouldnt the other one draft log?   

Life isnt about the money.
Praise The Lord

rjwoelk

What is your experience with horses?
Ridin enough to go by your self?
If not then find some one local that has horses and see if you are comfortable around them. Drafts are big animals and if you are unfamilar around them a steped on foot will not feel good. You should learn how to be around smaller horses first. The drafts are a lot more docile but 2 to 3 times as heavy.  Then if you cannot get comfortable with them you save yourself the expense of the schooling. 
Lt15 palax wood processor,3020 JD 7120 CIH 36x72 hay shed for workshop coop tractor with a duetz for power plant

dirthawger

No I have 0 experience riding horses,  only experience i have is riding mules down grand canyon about 12 years ago, haha so yea no experience. Of course there would need to be a market in my area for this and im not sure how to see if there is one.  I believe an apprenticeship would be a good idea but there like 10 weeks long and while i do get a week off at a time i couldn't take off that much time.  And on top of that im not sure how to market this or how to advertise. So I definitely have a lot of work ahead of me.

maple flats

Going back to air brakes and brake failure, they are fail safe, in that if the air pressure suddenly fails, the brakes are applied. But on the other side, if you use them incorrectly you can lose your brakes.
I have a CDL (however it's only good for school buses). If you pump your brakes too much on a long hill, you can use air faster than the pump replaces it, then the brakes got over heated, making you pump more and harder, BINGO, brakes fail. In CDL classes (instruction) we are taught not to pump the brakes, either hold relative steady pressure or minimal peddle movement as you vary the peddle pressure.
I believe that big train wreck was the result of a leak in the air tanks or the tank supply hoses which was faster than the pumps could replace it, the brakes over heated and failed. That was before the simple warning device all air brake vehicles now have, a wig wag, which drops to warn the operator that the air pressure is getting low. Without that visual warning an operator who is not paying proper attention to all of the gauges and meters might no notice low air pressure until it gets too low. Weak air pressure makes the brakes drag and they can get super hot. Overheated brakes do not work. This is why on many long steep hills you will see signs for a run away truck ramps. If a big truck loses their brakes on that hill , they pull off and come to a rather abrupt stop, but if the driver hit the ramp right, they are still alive and the rig is stuck but upright. In those, there is a very loose, usually round stone deep enough to allow the tires to sink down enough to stop the rig.
On horse logging, I've done a fair amount of it, but only for firewood and only in the winter. That's another story, in another thread from a few years ago. Long story short, I felled the trees and bucked them, while a single horse pulled the logs out without a driver. At the landing, my brother unhitched him and headed him back in, then he piled the logs on the landing using a tractor FEL. If I wasn't yet ready when the horse got back in the horse stopped about 100-150' away and waited. When I shut off the chainsaw, and called the horse, he came the rest of the way. I put a chain on the log while he came in, then I backed vhim to the log and quietly hooked the chain to the whiffle tree. I say quietly because as soon as the horse heard the chain drop he was off, ready or not.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed, Woodland Mills HM130Max , maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

teakwood

National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

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