The Forestry Forum is sponsored in part by:

iDRY Vacuum Kilns


Forestry Forum
Sponsored by:


TimberKing Sawmills



Toll Free 1-800-582-0470

LogRite Tools



Norwood Industries Inc.


Sawmill & Woodlot Magazine



Your source for Portable Sawmills, Edgers, Resaws, Sharpeners, Setters, Bandsaw Blades and Sawmill Parts

EZ Boardwalk Sawmills. More Saw For Less Money!

STIHLDealers.com sponsored by Northeast STIHL


Woodland Sawmills

Peterson Swingmills

 KASCO SharpTech WoodMaxx Blades

Turbosawmill

Sawmill Exchange

Michigan Firewood, your BRUTE FORCE Authorized Dealer

FARMA


Council Tool

Baker Products

ECHO-Bearcat

iDRY Wood Lumber Vacuum Drying for everyon




Author Topic: Building with field stone, and site wood framing  (Read 4119 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« on: November 14, 2017, 06:54:10 AM »
My wife likes the look of stone and as with trees, we have lots of it, some in big piles, including some really nicely veined/colored limestone & quartz.  Yes, lots of labor involved in collecting & preparing and stone masons don't come cheap, but let's leave all that aside for the moment.  At least we know we have "free" material.

Local rate is about $9/sf for labor on the actual application (might include mortar, not sure).  Funny how that about hits the cost of Superior Wall systems, installed, materials and labor.

How does using stone for veneer affect Timber framing (including our intended mechanically fastened version, post n beam or whatever...) and SIPs?  Would we be advised to consider a different insulation system instead of SIP?  Foam in EPS or other closed cell, right on the stone?  Green on this as must be obvious.

One of our local guys who will be helping with the build mentioned something about leaving a channel at the bottom for ventilation or drainage or both; not clear to me.

Is there any cost synergy that can be achieved (yeah, I dream a lot)?  Any damning considerations to hold over my head, besides cost?  Sorry, I meant danging.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2017, 08:33:01 AM »
Look forward to answers.  We were planning poured basement walls with walk out portion framed 2x6.  The poured wall would have stone veneer or prepared for it and the walk out Hardie.  A lot of our stone is quartz and not sure they would be good for a foundation wall.

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2017, 04:40:38 PM »
I imagine you'd need to allow for 6" or so for fieldstone veneer.  Veneer cannot bear load, SIPs, decks, etc, it is carrying itself that is all. I don't see a problem with quartz, what are you seeing as the downside?

Rubblestone is a solid masonry wall of uncoarsed stone a minimum of 16" thick. Which works with our rock pretty well. I've made a plywood back form, laid up stone on the face with mortar and fill the back with rocks and pea gravel concrete. If the wall is of any size you can fit around a rebar grid as you go. This leaves a concrete inside and stone exterior.

Ed the stonemason on that job is hauling up one of our porch timbers. The stone is quartzite fieldstone from the farm piles on site. That is a Superior foundation under the house. It got the 2" thick natural lick and stick veneer stone in a complimentary look.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2017, 08:09:24 PM »
Don, that is a great looking wall.   We plan a poured wall and are checking into prepping for a lick and stick on the face in the future as a way to cut some costs currently.  Seems a lot of the old stone piles here are a white looking quartz.  I ' assumed' the stone would not work well in a load bearing wall.  Either way the pocket book will not allow for that much stone work now.

MbfVA I look forward to feedback on your project.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2017, 03:01:28 AM »
Nice, and I had not really gotten around to the idea of bearing versus cosmetic.  Lick n stick, quite a name.  Probably thought up by someone who was stoned himself.

I wasn't sure quartz had the same structural capability.

We 2 stone building prospects on this thread will have to consider what you said, Don, always full of good info, thanks.  I want to consider the pea concrete wall idea in more detail.

If we did a structural stone wall option, how would that affect the use of SIPs?  Would we then want to apply foam insulation directly to the inside face of the stones, instead of using SIPs?  Seems like that would avoid any moisture/condensation problem?  Then put drywall against the foam, in between the timber framing?  Layer of Osb or plywood in between?

Can you describe the P gravel pouring in a little more detail when you have time; I think I get it?

I can envision some REEEEAAALLLY wide window stools and frames, with a 16 inch stone wall.  3D problem?  Dangerously Dark Dwelling?  On the other hand stone walls don't shrink, split or crack,  so perhaps the windows could be structured into the stone rather than worrying about what's going to happen to the timber frame.  All that floating talk in the cabin thread was making me seasick.

Talk about your "thermal mass", my gawd.  We've experienced a minor analog of it with the solid masonry block home we now rent out next to our restaurant.  Holds onto its temp.  For a long time; especially nice in the summer.

Waterproofing if used for the basement portion?  Gotta love Superior's 5000+ PSI concrete 25 year warranty.  Probably the old fashion method of "Keep the water away!", mostly, along with some coating, French drains, etc, I would assume?

Footing, just a gravel trench, same as used for Superior, or?

I'm giving myself a bad attack of fear of biting off too much...too heavy a lift, or too many rocks to raise?  But maybe it's simplier that it seems.  Then we can go back to worrying about the cost.

Maybe the best option would be to only do a basement/first floor wall of stone then go veneer above that?  Or Superior or ICF with stone veneer there, too?  Choices.

You're not referring to faux stone when you say lick n stick, are you?  We saw that stuff on an 8000 ft McMansion outside Lexington VA in 2008.  The owners finally gave up trying to sell and turned it into the tackiest of tacky wedding venues.  It was actually photo printed stucco of some sort, or something like that.  I would not want to see what happens when one of their kids crashes his bike into it.  But maybe that image would be like one in the "Son of Flubber" film from the 1950s where in a proposed commercial for the professor's product a couple bounced their baby on the kitchen floor like a basketball.

Posting some photos of different rocks we have--limestone and sandstone I think.o I'll get some of the quartz later (some is milky, a little bit is more clear):



 

The one above is typical of a bunch we saw in one of our pine patches.



 

Farm kids pile, above, good ole limestone.  There are many, many such piles.

The several streams going thru our land are filled with stones, as it the river, though those are more brown and rounded, as one might expect.

A local concrete producer bought a nearby historic plantation of over 600 acres, old brick house designed by Jefferson, just before we bought ours which was once part of it.  He hoped to mine sand from the Rivanna River to develop a premium sand concrete mix.  The Board of Supervisors denied his special use permit, and that made him furious.  Our county is kind of protective of Mr Jefferson's favorite stream, and we concur with that.  A few pounds might not be missed, though.

I attended VA Tech, whose entire original main academic quad building complex is built with grey limestone.  That includes Norris Hall, where all but 2 of the 2007 shootings took place.

A heart surgeon built his stone encased home on the large farm next to our restaurant, using the skills of, literally, Indiana stone masons.  They stayed in the area for months doing the work.  20,000 sf home, overlooking the James River.  There's a 28,000 sf manse about a mile in the other direction.  And a 15,000 sf home in between.  It is on the market, 60 ac I think, reduced from $8 MM originally to a mere $4.9 MM now, brick not stone.  Inheriting son & his family dine with us about 3 times a month.  Coal money on that one.

The 28K ft one was offered at $15 MM with 90 acres but did not sell.  I think its stone exterior is fake, but as I recall the stucco underneath has a high R value.  Owner is an engineer who cofounded a Fortune 100 before selling out to Mead Westvaco.

We're going out tomorrow to get away from the TG reservation monster for a while (our biggest day of the year) and will be collecting some stone samples in the Polaris bed (not a powered dump :-\).

Good thing is that there are those big piles where farm kids of old cleared the fields.  We thank them, and being a bicentennial farm, some were kin to me, if distantly.

Offline Weekend_Sawyer

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 3523
  • Age: 58
  • Location: Laurel, MD
  • Gender: Male
  • Jack of all trades, master of fun
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 07:52:34 AM »
Here's what I'm doing.

The house I am building in WV will have a stone veneer on the block foundation. We poured the footings a little wider to accommodate a 6" block on the outside of the foundation to act as a shelf for the rock facing to sit on. I am going to use local WV sandstone. Every time I am in the woods I pick up rocks. I am looking for nice flat rocks that are 2 to 4 inches thick. I'll take some pix when I am up this week. In the picture to the left you can see the 6" block ledge and the block ties in the wall as the stone comes up to one of the ties it is bent up to tie in the facing.
 

 

The 6" block ledge was brought up to grade and waterproofed.

 
Imagine, Me a Tree Farmer.
Jon, Appalachian American Wannabe. ... and it looks like my dream will come true!

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2017, 09:49:21 AM »
Good pic, hope to see more as you work on it  8).
We just had something similar done on the barn job but with a 4" ledge. the mason laid 12" block stairstepping just below grade then switched to 8" block leaving a 4" ledge to set the stone on, weaving brick ties he'd left dangling out of the block into the stone as it came up.

I've only used rubble stone for uninhabited foundations and crawlspaces. If it were to be an occupied basement I think I'd stand a frame wall a little off the masonry and call in the sprayfoam guys. The insulated rubblestone basement wall is now 20" thick. I'd like to build something in stone up to windowsill height and then timber above but you see the problem. However in this wall system the SIPS on the timberframe can bear on the stone, it is structural to the outer face of the masonry wall.

This is a bad pic but the only one I can find. Superior walls with lick and stick veneer stone broken and layed flatways, a dry ledgestone look. They were set up for 4" veneer and brick ties in those panels from the factory. Ed broke the stone over a length of heavy angle iron and then buttered only the back of the joints, using chips to hold the gap at the front edge until it set. Beautiful but a ladybug condo. Since the stone is veneer the RDP created a bearing by drawing a 2x12 sill flatways that extended out under the SIPs. In a later discussion with an engineer he didn't care for that, he is correct the wood is in tension perp, loaded to split. I suspect the headlocks are doing the heavy lifting on holding the SIPs in place. I also suspect the veneer is structural... you can't fool mother nature  :D



This pic has 2 different kinds of masonry with the same finished appearance. The chimney is block, reinforced and grouted solid with a 6" brick tied wrap of the same fieldstone that is being used in a structural rubble stone foundation supporting the porch. On the chimney the same stone but with a different method is considered veneer. I can bear on the stone on the foundation, I cannot bear on the chimney stone.


Hauling up stone for the chimney. The box o rocks comes up inside a gap in the level of scaffold Ed is hauling from. He spins it 90 when it comes thru the floor and sets it down across planks on either side of the hole. Happily a neighbor dropped off an electric capstan winch soon after this pic was taken. That fellow had worked on the 600' smokestacks back in the day, I can't imagine.


Lick and stick can go over felt wrapped and expanded lath applied frame or SIP construction. I'm not sold on that.

I had forgotten, some mockernut hickory wainscot and trim inside.


A little muriatic acid poured on a rock will tell you if it is calcerous. Ed and I had a bet going, I was sure this was some kind of limestone, there are caves, limestone and sinkholes all around there. He was right, we were up on the old beach  :D

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2017, 01:09:25 PM »
Nice trim work w hickory, Don.  Is the finish natural or has it been stained?

  I'm looking to use some of the "less popular" wood in our woods for trim as well. We have Hickory Ashe beach etc.   even Hackberry, never know what we're going to get until we cut into it and see the grain.  Waste not, want not.  Afford yes.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2017, 01:10:55 PM »
 I  Think I get the old beach comment (given the elevation of Grayson), but what kind of rock was it?

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2017, 01:12:25 PM »
 I think it seems less like real work if you divide the job up, pick up a few rocks here and there, never come back from the fields/woods empty-handed, or empty back of Polaris in my case.

Offline landscraper

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
  • Location: The Old Dominion
  • Gender: Male
  • LT4H0DD47. Dyna SC14. Hudson Stake Sharpener.
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2017, 09:01:14 PM »




 (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

The one above is typical of a bunch we saw in one of our pine patches.

I would bet that the stone pictured there is not limestone, but instead Catoctin Greenstone, a granite.  The pile of rocks shown below that picture looks like more of the same mixed in a vein of Quartz.
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2017, 11:09:59 PM »
Very interesting Mr Landscraper (where in VA?).  I will post more photos of different ones from piles I find, perhaps scraping off the lichen for visibility.

The first photo was of a rock that seemed softer than granite, but I'll take a hammer & chisel with me tomorrow and see what it's really like.

Offline landscraper

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
  • Location: The Old Dominion
  • Gender: Male
  • LT4H0DD47. Dyna SC14. Hudson Stake Sharpener.
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2017, 09:22:51 PM »
Very interesting Mr Landscraper (where in VA?).

The first photo was of a rock that seemed softer than granite, but I'll take a hammer & chisel with me tomorrow and see what it's really like.

North side of Charlottesville.

Greenstone weathers heavily over time (eons) - eventually becoming a silty clay.  Surface rocks would likely be softer than the bedrock buried below.

It is quarried in Shadwell, and it is found all over Central Va.  If you take 64 West over Afton you will see a large face of it on North cut slope near the top of the mountain, the color is a giveaway. 
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2017, 10:37:26 PM »
We are not that far from Shadwell, 3 mi S of Palmyra (for those not into VA geography, near Charlottesville).  I see your point on the stones in the pile, think they are granite and I am now not so sure VT is built with limestone.  Wondering about the stone in the first photo, though.  It almost resembles sandstone.  I'll test it with a chisel soon.

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2017, 11:00:31 PM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokie_Stone
One engineer said its about 15 minutes shy of marble  ;D

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 03:57:34 AM »
hmmm, is it still sedimentary or is it metamorphic--certainly will read more.  The photo of the Norris lower door in Wikipedia almost got me, Don. 

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 07:23:22 AM »
This is a good website on VA geology;
http://csmgeo.csm.jmu.edu/geollab/vageol/vahist/PhysProv.html

And on greenstone;
http://geology.wm.edu/bailey/CatoctinFormation.pdf

You're northeast of me, our basement rock is Cranberry Gneiss, a metamorphosed granite formed from plutonic magma... underground lava. Mt Rogers and Whitetop are also that gneiss, I believe Grandfather is as well. That dome runs up as far as Sylvatus. There is all manner of stone layered above it, or variously worn through or tumbled down. South of it is the Roan Mt gneiss, I believe the oldest in the Blue Ridge. From the back porch as I look N I'm looking at the beginning of the Valley and Ridge country (basically the long valleys along 81) with limestone and dolostones... the beach. The New river was the Teas back then, there was no Mississippi, the Teas drained the heartland into an inland sea, that was the shore that formed those sedimentary, later metamorphosed, rocks. Along that NE to SW line just over the mountain from me is where Saltville, Leadmines, multiple iron furnaces are all lined up, the heavy or concentrated stuff flowing off the Blue Ridge. Our topsoil ran on down from Ohio to the Delta.

The sandstone in my previous pics I believe is quartzite, sandstone after heat and pressure from the border between those zones.  It was a resistant capstone that collapsed and laid on the surface of that mountain. I was sure we'd have to blast but we didn't hit any rock underground. It had apparently all ridden the surface as the mountain crumbled. In that neighborhood are iron mines and furnaces and a deep red sandstone. I've been told that shows that the sand was rich in iron, in a warm shallow oxygen rich pool, life had begun. Our gneiss on my side of that hill is quite a bit before that. My understanding is the dolomites are metamorphosed limestone with manganese.  It eventually metamorphoses to marble under heat and pressure. The limestone here runs between the gneiss and the dolomite and is softer than either, that is where the caves are. When you cross into the third, youngest, mountain building zone in the Appalachians you're into the coalfields. My understanding is they went through the temperature range that would leave oil, that got cooked and the coal made it through. Recognizable fossils show up in the coal and shales. Nothing is neat here though. I can climb above the house and be in foliated quartzite, mudstone and shale overburden and are included in the gneiss in places on the property.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 10:03:16 AM »
Don thank you for the links!  This is very interesting.  I need to do more reading on the Valley and the Blue Ridge sections.

Offline landscraper

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
  • Location: The Old Dominion
  • Gender: Male
  • LT4H0DD47. Dyna SC14. Hudson Stake Sharpener.
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 08:50:20 PM »
We are not that far from Shadwell, 3 mi S of Palmyra (for those not into VA geography, near Charlottesville).  I see your point on the stones in the pile, think they are granite and I am now not so sure VT is built with limestone.  Wondering about the stone in the first photo, though.  It almost resembles sandstone.  I'll test it with a chisel soon.

I know that area - I had a contract job in the quarry down in New Canton, used to take 15 South to get there.

There is a Dept. of Mines, Minerals & Energy office on Fontaine Ave. in Charlottesville, they have a wealth of info about the geology of the area.

Fun fact - if I'm not mistaken there was widespread gold mining from North of Fork Union down into Buckingham and Goochland in the 1800's.  Let me know if you strike it rich.
Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 09:07:41 PM »
You're right, there's a Goldmine Road in our county.  And there were gold mines in western Goochland County.  In fact one was reopened many years ago while I was on the board of supervisors. We had to give them a conditional use permit.

I went and picked up some rocks today, and one striking fact, no pun intended, was that almost all of them have some sort of flint like quality because as it was getting dark I saw sparks as I tossed them in together.   Gee, I wonder if that will affect my fire insurance  :P

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing; rubble stone basement?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2017, 11:54:31 PM »

Is there anyway to waterproof a rubble stone foundation below grade?   It looks like the front part of our planned basement on the hillside will be below ground but walk-out at the rear.  From the preceding discussion I get that rubblestone can be a good supportive foundation "material" & definitely has a nice rustic appearance;  possibly there will even be material savings, rebar and concrete  smiley_thumbsup

I am also curious as to whether or not this use of rubble stone would be compatible with ICF, or would dropping in large stones tend to tear up the insulating material?   I have little working or technical knowledge of ICFs.

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 05:40:24 AM »
Incompatible with ICF, that needs a strong pumped mix that can flow within the cells and around the considerable rebar grid. It is tough enough to get them to fill.
You can slip form rubblestone below grade or where it isn't seen then parge and dampproof or just dampproof if the finish is good.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2017, 03:15:28 PM »
Thanks Don, I am checking out some googled links on slip forming.  I'll have some thoughts and questions to post soon.   Definitely my first time hearing of that.

First one I found is this one:
http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/Rehl_Stone_House.htm

Working through that one will take time to take in all it has to offer!  Lots of OJT and out of the box thinking in it, so far.  That is definitely one "extreme" stone project.

If you have any other good links, happy to have them.  Thanks again.

Offline badger1

  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 42
  • Location: Twin Cities/NW WI
  • Gender: Male
  • 715 transplant to the Twin Cities
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 01:09:56 PM »
Thanks Don, I am checking out some googled links on slip forming.  I'll have some thoughts and questions to post soon.   Definitely my first time hearing of that.

First one I found is this one:
http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/Rehl_Stone_House.htm

Working through that one will take time to take in all it has to offer!  Lots of OJT and out of the box thinking in it, so far.  That is definitely one "extreme" stone project.

If you have any other good links, happy to have them.  Thanks again.

Check out the books by Scott Nehring and his wife, they lived a simple life and wrote several interesting books...they were huge proponents for slip form building. The house was done this way, several very high garden fences etc. Some interesting info in their books regarding building, sustainability and life in general, interesting good reads, you can find them on Amazon.

I like the aesthetic look of slip form, however I've always figured if I went through the trouble of building plywood forms I'd just fill the entire thing with concrete, much quicker. It would save a little money and you could do smaller sections rather than one complete pour, some advantages, but depending on where you build I don't know how an inspector would feel about it. My guess is if they were sticklers, it would probably be a no go.

Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2017, 02:14:57 PM »
 Thanks for the thoughts and for ref on the slip form proponents.   I suppose one advantage over conventional forms & pours is the slip form can be reused, and is not as large to build.

 One thing I think I see in all this is that slipforming requires mixing one's own concrete, since it would be hard to justify having the truck sitting around for the time it takes to do slipforming.  I knew there be a use for that mixer I own!   However I'll have to consult my orthopedist about me vs a bunch of 80 pound bags, or even 60 pound bags.

 As far as saving time versus saving materials, sort of like sawmilling your entire framing lumber set.  Assuming of course that grading doesn't get in the way.  How much is your time worth?

Also, I suppose that we are at another one of those engineer versus building inspector turning points.  If our (proposed) engineer likes it, I think it will pass since the building inspector & he have worked together a lot.  We shall see.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2017, 02:22:44 PM »
One of the slip formers websites I found referred to using fly ash to augment the concrete.  There is a major coal fired power plant about six or 7 miles from us on the James River (yep, not good for the air), so that got my attention.   I also recall that a Home Depot being built not far from here years ago suffered a major problem when fly ash enhanced concrete was used in its slab, and a bunch of racks collapsed when the floor gave way under them right before opening.

 Anyone have experience with that?

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2017, 04:58:00 PM »
it is used as a superplastisizer, reduces water. Do not try this at home, if they muffed the chemistry chances are not in your favor. There are spectacular concrete mix failures very occasionally. We had bad aggregate in a run here, the quarry got into rock that popped concrete on a bunch of work.

Speaking of flyash, making charcoal has made my mind wander. Using wood waste to run a gasifying generator while pulling the biochar off that process would mean that where coal flyash is a problem, folks have been emailing asking for biochar for their gardens. I did some research on application rates, up to 10-20 tons/acre would be of benefit. The waste from wood fired electric production would be a nutrient rather than a pollutant, and it sequesters the carbon that the tree captured from the air.


Scott and Helen Nearing from the old Mother Earth News days, yes they were big proponents. I have used the technique for simply extending concrete the way country folk across the world often do... stuff as many rocks in while you're pouring. IIRC concrete standards limit aggregate to 1/3 wall thickness. If the rocks get bigger you are sort of crossing over from concrete to masonry work. If the inspector wants to stickle call it rubblestone and the 16" thickness rule comes in. I've slipformed at 12", so there is room for judgement calls.

You can haul bags of quickrete but I order the sand and gravel by the truckload each and just haul Portland cement by the bag, then mix it by 5 gallon bucket ratios. I've probably fed my mixer for the last time, but they make money and young'uns every day.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2017, 07:54:15 PM »
 if they make the wall requirement too thick, then the economic advantage of using rubble-stone and or slip forming goes away.  Slips away.   Of course the wall could still be a good looking wall if the right rocks are used.

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 07:43:08 AM »
That's where veneer comes from, a non structural face on a concrete or masonry wall.

I'm no mason so a 16" thick wall using the rocks laying around isn't that hard. If you tear down an old stone foundation they are at least that thick. I've cut holes in the form to let big rocks poke through in a crawlspace.

here's that cite;
R404.1.8 Rubble stone masonry.
Rubble stone masonry foundation walls shall have a minimum thickness of 16 inches (406 mm), shall not support an unbalanced backfill exceeding 8 feet (2438 mm) in height, shall not support a soil pressure greater than 30 pounds per square foot per foot (4.71 kPa/m), and shall not be constructed in Seismic Design Categories D0, D1, D2 or townhouses in Seismic Design Category C, as established in Figure R301.2(2).


With ashlar, coursed, stone masonry the wall thickness can drop to 12" IIRC.

I'm actually not a real fan of slipform for the finished face of a wall, I don't mind it for a serviceable side. That's just taste, there's nothing wrong with it. That's where the form on the backside and laying the face came from. That's all part of the time, resources, money equation.


Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 07:59:03 AM »
That equation and one related to size, quality and money are to be obeyed!

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2017, 09:51:40 AM »
considering that the earthquake of a few years ago was a total surprise (Building site is about 25 miles west of here, but we got damage here), I'm going to check what seismic zone we are in.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2017, 09:52:41 AM »
 I certainly wouldn't want even the veneer stone to fall off during one of those. Wood is starting to look better.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2017, 02:05:46 AM »
 Photos of a property on the market in the Charlottesville area, called Neve Hall by its builder.  I believe it qualifies as at least partly a rubble stone build; circa 1924, though I think the oldest part may be older:

 

 
Owner is a retired UVA art prof; convenient to C-ville but with challenges.

 

 
Fairly small scissors trusses used in old chapel section; how old? 1924?  Metal used in joints, so it is post & beam, not TF.

 

 
Lightened this one a bit, shows direct connection of truss to top of the stone wall; or is that really masonry it is anchored in?  Looks almost like brick or even wooden wainscoting material?

 

 
Rubble stone by appearance, and possibly slip formed?  Opinions?

 

 
Rubble, Rubble--stones in trouble
Did they quit in mid-job?
Or "...Where has all the mortar gone...When will they ever learn?
(To pay the mason on time!!)
[I heard a Kingston Trio song on the radio as we left the house]

Actually I think that may have been a sloppy attempt at repair and much more modern.

They want $850K for this place on 20 acres.  Major rail line about 200 ft behind and US 29 in front.  The inside is a complete need-to-gut job, trust me.  Thomas Jefferson designed & installed the kitchen, I think.  Not sure he got paid, either.

On topic, wondering if this is typical of rubble stone and/or slip form masonry.  Comments?


Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2017, 07:42:10 AM »
Look at the pic with the window and leaves on the exterior, that is ashlar, coursed, masonry. One over two, two over one, level by level, interlocked. The joints are struck not cast, this is neither rubblestone nor slipformed  :)
The truss heel looks like later mud birdblocking... I'd get a moisture meter into that wood before purchase!

I suspect you are in seismic B, might scratch C, I'm running too slow to check, chapter 3 of the IRC has that map.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2017, 09:30:26 AM »
MbfVA
What process/materials will you use to water proof your basement area?

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2017, 09:37:57 AM »
 interesting, thanks Don. I wasn't sure that was a real pattern that I was seeing.   they certainly did not do it with Gerber stones.

 it was just an open house, we went by out of curiosity  with the primary reason being to see the Stone work. I salute the person who's willing to take on the renovation job that is required there.  I wish I'd taken more interior pictures--it was truly weird in places.  Owned by an art professor, that's the story, completely backed up by the inside.  Wahoo.

 The search for viewing a Rubblestone/slip form job continues. At the same time, we're going to look at superior wall.

Waterproofing still concerns me.   I think someone made a suggestion above.  A wet basement is not something I want to deal with.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2017, 09:58:41 AM »
I have avoided Wahoo comments thus far.  I am down in SW Va and a Hokie!  That is an amazing old home. 

I am not familiar with methods to water proof but need to research for our poured basement walls.  Thought you might have some thoughts/opinions.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2017, 10:08:00 AM »
 Probably best for both of us to look to higher authority there.  My father always found basement waterproofing to be something requiring a lot of care and attention.  I am very concerned as well, since we will be building into the side of a hill in front.

I have always been told that the primary way to avoid basement water problems is to keep the water away from the wall to begin with--planning, drain tile, proper grading, etc.

Companies like b dry make a lot of money when mistakes get made  in the building process.

Offline landscraper

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
  • Location: The Old Dominion
  • Gender: Male
  • LT4H0DD47. Dyna SC14. Hudson Stake Sharpener.
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2017, 09:55:59 PM »
I've seen that house plenty of time heading north from Red Hill on 29.  The parish house at St. John the Baptist Church on Dick Woods Road (5 miles or so west) is maybe a nicer example of that "style" of stone construction from the same era. 

Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2017, 12:16:19 AM »
Thanks, probably passed it many times.  I'll check it out.  This one, or at least the rear part, was apparently a church at one time.  I am seeing more n more converted churches in the area.  Combination of shrinking church activity and old buildings being cast off for newer and often larger ones (enter the MEGA church).

Earlier this year a local church was auctioned (soon to be replaced by a new and larger one elsewhere) and brought almost $600K, but the buyer could not perform.  It resold a few mos ago for $235K.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2017, 12:55:49 AM »
Following up on building into the hill, here is about the building spot and it shows the view we are trying to capture:

 

 

The stuff past the fence was cut days later but this was the last photo from the site that I had.

The Southwest Mountains which run from Albemarle up through Orange County and a bit beyond, are tiny at this distance but just visible in the photo if you look carefully.  They are not the "mountain views" I wanted (Don P has them), but they are the ones we will have.  The river valley almost makes up for it.

There is a maybe $6 MM home on 600+ acres hidden in the trees on the hump just off center of the view, maybe 1000 yards away and across the river.  Home of the engineer who invented Michael Bloomberg's "black box" used by brokers.  He will not like seeing our lights, since there will be few if any trees blocking the view between us.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 04:09:52 PM »
Really a nice setting for the view.  Sounds like the view will be fairly protected by the large parcels others own.  What is being you, are you on top of a ridge or off on the side somewhat?

When do you hope to start building?

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2017, 02:20:05 AM »
The land behind looks like this (taken from the same direction, abt 150-200 ft back):
 

 

Flat leading up to it, so access will be good.  We are sort of on a ridge, which overlooks the Rivanna River nicely.  That is the river valley in the background of the previous photo.

Should have started by now.  If we do not use Superior wall, I will be wary of pouring concrete in the winter.  The basement slab could most likely be done later without any disadvantage except not having the storage & access.

Offline samandothers

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 2535
  • Location: Charlotte NC To SW Va.
  • Gender: Male
  • Been learning on FF since 1/20/12
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 09:30:31 AM »
Very nice.  Will you contract/build or have someone perform that role?  We are gathering estimates at this time.  Man housing has gone up since we last built 25 years ago,  :D

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 11:22:55 AM »
Nice looking site!
Superior requires slab placement quickly, that is all that is holding the walls back from soil pressure. The same is true for a typical basement though. You do have a footer down providing resistance to fill but that wont hold it back if it gets saturated... roof sheathed, no gutters, big rain and there is a swimming hole behind the wall. Plan on putting the slab in and the floor above sheathed prior to backfill. Bracing the box.

There was a series of pics making the rounds a few years ago. One of the basement waterproofing companies had cut a trough out of the slab along the walls in a superior basement with the intention of installing a subslab drain and sump. The wall bottoms simply moved in to the new slab edge wherever they could. It was a tilted buckled mess.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 12:48:47 PM »
I was afraid you'd say that, regarding the slab.  Oh, well, we'll just have to be careful about the wx.

That sounds like B Dry, since their modus operandi is something along the lines you describe.  Do you recall if the instant problem was with the slab or with the Superior wall system?  Wouldn't that be hard to sort out if the water was coming in at the intersection of slab & wall?

Prevention
Prevention
Prevention

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2017, 12:56:05 PM »
Will you contract/build or have someone perform that role?

We will, with lots of help of 3 friendly Class A guys, including our designer.  If we can ever nail down a design and get started.  The distractions are constant, including a couple of big ones just up.

Online Don P

  • Senior Member x2
  • *****
  • Posts: 5010
  • Location: Southwestern VA
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Calculator Index
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2017, 06:38:39 PM »
I don't know the particulars of that case, more pointing out that there is nothing holding the wall bottoms in place until the slab is poured.

 If you go with Superior I would pitch the excavation to a drain rather than making it dead flat. Then level the gravel under the slab. Protect the perimeter drains with gravel wrapped in geotextile, convert to solid pipe for the run out to daylight and it looks like a long enough run that a cleanout or two might be in order. While those trenches are open run drains for the gutters as well. Avoid the temptation of dumping the gutters into the perimeter drain. They are trying to keep the subgrade dry, make the roof water go away in its own pipe.
Once those drains are away from the house and below it you can alternatively go to slotted pipe in a gravel bed trying to lose the water underground which is preferred to runoff. However run the pipe out to daylight so that it can get rid of major water when needed. rodent screen the end of the pipe!

Offline landscraper

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 401
  • Location: The Old Dominion
  • Gender: Male
  • LT4H0DD47. Dyna SC14. Hudson Stake Sharpener.
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2017, 09:49:10 PM »
Should have started by now.  If we do not use Superior wall, I will be wary of pouring concrete in the winter.  The basement slab could most likely be done later without any disadvantage except not having the storage & access.

Well we are not exactly in Fargo :) , plenty of good weather during a typical winter in Fluvanna for pouring concrete well within accepted temperature ranges, just might have to wait for a window in the forecast.  There is a civil geotech engineer who lives just down the road from you who offers testing and monitoring (soils, drainage, concrete, etc.) services for residential projects, cheap insurance in my opinion to have a trained set of eyes on the work as it goes in.  If your contractor is from Fluvanna or Albemarle odds are he will know this engineer already, if not let me know and I will PM his name to you, I have no pecuniary interest in doing so.  Pretty commonplace anymore around here to get third party inspection either in lieu of or in addition to some of the county inspections.

Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2018, 02:48:27 AM »
Clarification from the Superior Wall rep has helped me better understand things.  He says it's OK to wait on the slab (tho' as you all have cautioned, watch out for big rain, etc), but it has to be done before backfilling the walls.  I don't he means a long time.

I like Don's details regarding the slab (thank you as always!).  Trying to avoid gutters much as possible in our design--I hate 'em.  We have a nice downhill run coming off the proposed north end of the home which should make doing needed drainage easy without erosion.  Details to be worked out.

Offline kantuckid

  • Full Member x2
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
  • Age: 75
  • Location: Eastern KY
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2018, 09:28:11 AM »
I did exactly what MD based Weekender did above on my full basement foundation. Stepped off blocks above grade for a rock veneer below my logs. Mine runs from 2' to 4-5' high.
I used creek bed, limestone rocks from nearby Bath County, KY. Drove my log truck down into the creek and fetched them one at a time. The limestone cliff behind my house has many rocks below but wasn't enough for my house. I paid a guy to build my fireplace also using them, then I did the foundation myself after we moved in as I did have a day job too.
When I see a "rustic wood house" with an exposed concrete or block foundation, I cringe! :'(
Kan=Kansas;tuck=Kentucky;kid=what I'm not

Offline MbfVA

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Gender: Male
    • Share Post
    • Tanglewood Ordinary Country Restaurant
Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2018, 09:52:01 PM »
I used creek bed, limestone rocks from nearby Bath County, KY. Drove my log truck down into the creek and fetched them one at a time...
When I see a "rustic wood house" with an exposed concrete or block foundation, I cringe! :'(
With you.  Not sure I can drive my vehicle into the Rivah, tho'.  May have to pick 'em up in woods & fields  smiley_brick hits_hardhat


Share via delicious Share via digg Share via facebook Share via linkedin Share via pinterest Share via reddit Share via stumble Share via tumblr Share via twitter

 


Powered by EzPortal