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Author Topic: Building with field stone, and site wood framing  (Read 3903 times)

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Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing; rubble stone basement?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2017, 11:54:31 PM »

Is there anyway to waterproof a rubble stone foundation below grade?   It looks like the front part of our planned basement on the hillside will be below ground but walk-out at the rear.  From the preceding discussion I get that rubblestone can be a good supportive foundation "material" & definitely has a nice rustic appearance;  possibly there will even be material savings, rebar and concrete  smiley_thumbsup

I am also curious as to whether or not this use of rubble stone would be compatible with ICF, or would dropping in large stones tend to tear up the insulating material?   I have little working or technical knowledge of ICFs.

Online Don P

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 05:40:24 AM »
Incompatible with ICF, that needs a strong pumped mix that can flow within the cells and around the considerable rebar grid. It is tough enough to get them to fill.
You can slip form rubblestone below grade or where it isn't seen then parge and dampproof or just dampproof if the finish is good.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2017, 03:15:28 PM »
Thanks Don, I am checking out some googled links on slip forming.  I'll have some thoughts and questions to post soon.   Definitely my first time hearing of that.

First one I found is this one:
http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/Rehl_Stone_House.htm

Working through that one will take time to take in all it has to offer!  Lots of OJT and out of the box thinking in it, so far.  That is definitely one "extreme" stone project.

If you have any other good links, happy to have them.  Thanks again.

Offline badger1

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 01:09:56 PM »
Thanks Don, I am checking out some googled links on slip forming.  I'll have some thoughts and questions to post soon.   Definitely my first time hearing of that.

First one I found is this one:
http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/Rehl_Stone_House.htm

Working through that one will take time to take in all it has to offer!  Lots of OJT and out of the box thinking in it, so far.  That is definitely one "extreme" stone project.

If you have any other good links, happy to have them.  Thanks again.

Check out the books by Scott Nehring and his wife, they lived a simple life and wrote several interesting books...they were huge proponents for slip form building. The house was done this way, several very high garden fences etc. Some interesting info in their books regarding building, sustainability and life in general, interesting good reads, you can find them on Amazon.

I like the aesthetic look of slip form, however I've always figured if I went through the trouble of building plywood forms I'd just fill the entire thing with concrete, much quicker. It would save a little money and you could do smaller sections rather than one complete pour, some advantages, but depending on where you build I don't know how an inspector would feel about it. My guess is if they were sticklers, it would probably be a no go.

Contact me via PM, willing to help with projects for more experience

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2017, 02:14:57 PM »
 Thanks for the thoughts and for ref on the slip form proponents.   I suppose one advantage over conventional forms & pours is the slip form can be reused, and is not as large to build.

 One thing I think I see in all this is that slipforming requires mixing one's own concrete, since it would be hard to justify having the truck sitting around for the time it takes to do slipforming.  I knew there be a use for that mixer I own!   However I'll have to consult my orthopedist about me vs a bunch of 80 pound bags, or even 60 pound bags.

 As far as saving time versus saving materials, sort of like sawmilling your entire framing lumber set.  Assuming of course that grading doesn't get in the way.  How much is your time worth?

Also, I suppose that we are at another one of those engineer versus building inspector turning points.  If our (proposed) engineer likes it, I think it will pass since the building inspector & he have worked together a lot.  We shall see.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2017, 02:22:44 PM »
One of the slip formers websites I found referred to using fly ash to augment the concrete.  There is a major coal fired power plant about six or 7 miles from us on the James River (yep, not good for the air), so that got my attention.   I also recall that a Home Depot being built not far from here years ago suffered a major problem when fly ash enhanced concrete was used in its slab, and a bunch of racks collapsed when the floor gave way under them right before opening.

 Anyone have experience with that?

Online Don P

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2017, 04:58:00 PM »
it is used as a superplastisizer, reduces water. Do not try this at home, if they muffed the chemistry chances are not in your favor. There are spectacular concrete mix failures very occasionally. We had bad aggregate in a run here, the quarry got into rock that popped concrete on a bunch of work.

Speaking of flyash, making charcoal has made my mind wander. Using wood waste to run a gasifying generator while pulling the biochar off that process would mean that where coal flyash is a problem, folks have been emailing asking for biochar for their gardens. I did some research on application rates, up to 10-20 tons/acre would be of benefit. The waste from wood fired electric production would be a nutrient rather than a pollutant, and it sequesters the carbon that the tree captured from the air.


Scott and Helen Nearing from the old Mother Earth News days, yes they were big proponents. I have used the technique for simply extending concrete the way country folk across the world often do... stuff as many rocks in while you're pouring. IIRC concrete standards limit aggregate to 1/3 wall thickness. If the rocks get bigger you are sort of crossing over from concrete to masonry work. If the inspector wants to stickle call it rubblestone and the 16" thickness rule comes in. I've slipformed at 12", so there is room for judgement calls.

You can haul bags of quickrete but I order the sand and gravel by the truckload each and just haul Portland cement by the bag, then mix it by 5 gallon bucket ratios. I've probably fed my mixer for the last time, but they make money and young'uns every day.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2017, 07:54:15 PM »
 if they make the wall requirement too thick, then the economic advantage of using rubble-stone and or slip forming goes away.  Slips away.   Of course the wall could still be a good looking wall if the right rocks are used.

Online Don P

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 07:43:08 AM »
That's where veneer comes from, a non structural face on a concrete or masonry wall.

I'm no mason so a 16" thick wall using the rocks laying around isn't that hard. If you tear down an old stone foundation they are at least that thick. I've cut holes in the form to let big rocks poke through in a crawlspace.

here's that cite;
R404.1.8 Rubble stone masonry.
Rubble stone masonry foundation walls shall have a minimum thickness of 16 inches (406 mm), shall not support an unbalanced backfill exceeding 8 feet (2438 mm) in height, shall not support a soil pressure greater than 30 pounds per square foot per foot (4.71 kPa/m), and shall not be constructed in Seismic Design Categories D0, D1, D2 or townhouses in Seismic Design Category C, as established in Figure R301.2(2).


With ashlar, coursed, stone masonry the wall thickness can drop to 12" IIRC.

I'm actually not a real fan of slipform for the finished face of a wall, I don't mind it for a serviceable side. That's just taste, there's nothing wrong with it. That's where the form on the backside and laying the face came from. That's all part of the time, resources, money equation.


Offline samandothers

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 07:59:03 AM »
That equation and one related to size, quality and money are to be obeyed!

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2017, 09:51:40 AM »
considering that the earthquake of a few years ago was a total surprise (Building site is about 25 miles west of here, but we got damage here), I'm going to check what seismic zone we are in.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2017, 09:52:41 AM »
 I certainly wouldn't want even the veneer stone to fall off during one of those. Wood is starting to look better.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2017, 02:05:46 AM »
 Photos of a property on the market in the Charlottesville area, called Neve Hall by its builder.  I believe it qualifies as at least partly a rubble stone build; circa 1924, though I think the oldest part may be older:

 

 
Owner is a retired UVA art prof; convenient to C-ville but with challenges.

 

 
Fairly small scissors trusses used in old chapel section; how old? 1924?  Metal used in joints, so it is post & beam, not TF.

 

 
Lightened this one a bit, shows direct connection of truss to top of the stone wall; or is that really masonry it is anchored in?  Looks almost like brick or even wooden wainscoting material?

 

 
Rubble stone by appearance, and possibly slip formed?  Opinions?

 

 
Rubble, Rubble--stones in trouble
Did they quit in mid-job?
Or "...Where has all the mortar gone...When will they ever learn?
(To pay the mason on time!!)
[I heard a Kingston Trio song on the radio as we left the house]

Actually I think that may have been a sloppy attempt at repair and much more modern.

They want $850K for this place on 20 acres.  Major rail line about 200 ft behind and US 29 in front.  The inside is a complete need-to-gut job, trust me.  Thomas Jefferson designed & installed the kitchen, I think.  Not sure he got paid, either.

On topic, wondering if this is typical of rubble stone and/or slip form masonry.  Comments?


Online Don P

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2017, 07:42:10 AM »
Look at the pic with the window and leaves on the exterior, that is ashlar, coursed, masonry. One over two, two over one, level by level, interlocked. The joints are struck not cast, this is neither rubblestone nor slipformed  :)
The truss heel looks like later mud birdblocking... I'd get a moisture meter into that wood before purchase!

I suspect you are in seismic B, might scratch C, I'm running too slow to check, chapter 3 of the IRC has that map.

Offline samandothers

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2017, 09:30:26 AM »
MbfVA
What process/materials will you use to water proof your basement area?

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2017, 09:37:57 AM »
 interesting, thanks Don. I wasn't sure that was a real pattern that I was seeing.   they certainly did not do it with Gerber stones.

 it was just an open house, we went by out of curiosity  with the primary reason being to see the Stone work. I salute the person who's willing to take on the renovation job that is required there.  I wish I'd taken more interior pictures--it was truly weird in places.  Owned by an art professor, that's the story, completely backed up by the inside.  Wahoo.

 The search for viewing a Rubblestone/slip form job continues. At the same time, we're going to look at superior wall.

Waterproofing still concerns me.   I think someone made a suggestion above.  A wet basement is not something I want to deal with.

Offline samandothers

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2017, 09:58:41 AM »
I have avoided Wahoo comments thus far.  I am down in SW Va and a Hokie!  That is an amazing old home. 

I am not familiar with methods to water proof but need to research for our poured basement walls.  Thought you might have some thoughts/opinions.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2017, 10:08:00 AM »
 Probably best for both of us to look to higher authority there.  My father always found basement waterproofing to be something requiring a lot of care and attention.  I am very concerned as well, since we will be building into the side of a hill in front.

I have always been told that the primary way to avoid basement water problems is to keep the water away from the wall to begin with--planning, drain tile, proper grading, etc.

Companies like b dry make a lot of money when mistakes get made  in the building process.

Offline landscraper

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2017, 09:55:59 PM »
I've seen that house plenty of time heading north from Red Hill on 29.  The parish house at St. John the Baptist Church on Dick Woods Road (5 miles or so west) is maybe a nicer example of that "style" of stone construction from the same era. 

Firewood is energy independence on a personal scale.

Offline MbfVA

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Re: Building with field stone, and site wood framing
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2017, 12:16:19 AM »
Thanks, probably passed it many times.  I'll check it out.  This one, or at least the rear part, was apparently a church at one time.  I am seeing more n more converted churches in the area.  Combination of shrinking church activity and old buildings being cast off for newer and often larger ones (enter the MEGA church).

Earlier this year a local church was auctioned (soon to be replaced by a new and larger one elsewhere) and brought almost $600K, but the buyer could not perform.  It resold a few mos ago for $235K.


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