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Author Topic: New Toy (Tool)  (Read 8048 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2019, 07:02:06 PM »
I thought that was YH responding and I know he bought his machine from a dealer in GA.  I didn't see it was actually Tule timber Peak responding.  By info I mean info about what they look like, how they work etc. to have an understanding of how they differ from a normal straight knife.   I'm not asking about experience per say.  Now I actually know tule timber peak's name!
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2019, 07:04:57 PM »
That and a dime will get you nothing at Starbucks !  LOL :D :D :D :D
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2019, 01:10:52 AM »
I looked real hard at the Teresa vs Xylent cutterhead since SCMI offers both.  Ive attached a SCMI video on both.  Teresas are excellent cutters, and one of the shops I visit uses them.  Looking at sound tests done by SCMI, and talking to my dealer, they told me the Xylent head has about a 10 dB drop over their other knives.  Remember that dB is a logrithmic scale so a 10 dB drop is very significant. They are named Xylent for a reason, from my experience they are incredibly quiet, and put on a surface that is glass smooth, with none of the tyical Byrd spiral head streaks.  Smooth enough that it makes it slippery to grip.  Ive never had boards just fall out of my hand when handing, until I got the Xylent head, and Ive seen other folks drop boards, too.  Its that good.
https://www.scmgroup.com/en_CA/classical-machines/scm-and-minimax-devices/tersa-cutterhead

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/classical-machines/scm-and-minimax-devices/xylent-cutterhead

The Xylent spiral heads are a second generation design, not to be confused with the first generation Byrd style spiral.  The Xylents have an extremely aggressive spiral, and if you will look at the second video still picture, you can see that there are dead spaces between the spirals in the cutterhead where the board is not engaged.  So unlike conventional spirals where one of the cutters was always engaged in the board, the Xylents wide spacing allows a periodic disengagement of cutter, lowers the average load on the cutter and allows it to keep its RPM up, much like a conventional cutter.  The 8 hp 3 phase motor doesnt hurt, either.  

I dont know how many tens of thousands of bdft Ive faced and jointed though mine since Ive bought it, but I just faced a thousand bdft of rough sawn KD 4/4 walnut last Thursday, and its a routine occurrence on high value wood for us.   Many thousands of bdft of 8/4 slabs, we do clean up of bows boards in packs of slabs every week, which was its original intent.  

We are thinking of buying one of the finger power feeds designed for these types of machines, as in Tule Peaks photo, but they start at $2K and have a three month delivery, last time I called.  

The SCMI will easily hog off a quarter inch when jointing an 8/4 boards, and not even care.  I do that quite often when a customer asks me to face a board or slab and then wants a straight edge on a rough sawn edge. Face one side at 1/8 quick drop the spring assist table to 1/4 hog the edge, then run it through the planer.  I had one customer say that a joiner shouldnt be able to do that, it just wasnt fair.  

Ive owned three jointer machines, a Jet, a Grizz, and a SCMI and without doubt, the SCMI is better than all by 10X.  The Xylent head is better than a Byrd spiral, which I have in my planer, by 2X and is also about half as loud.  Its a truly amazing machine.

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2019, 01:25:57 AM »
YH, how is feeding that many board feet through it doing on you physically?  I would assume you might be using two pad blocks or something with your arms spread wide to push it through?  I'm thinking you'd be physically beat if you're sitting there doing a whole pallet of boards at once?

As you probably know, I have an MP100 for my mill, which helps with flattening certain width slabs.  My plan is to build a new wide mill track and head frame (like Matt Cremona's) for the MP100, so I can easily joint wide slabs.

I've been looking at various brands and I don't see any smaller jointers like a 12" that have the long bed, or the ribbed bed surface.  I wonder if Grizzly will do this in the future?
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2019, 08:02:43 AM »
In short, it isnt much fun.  Actually, it is less than fun.  A couple hundred bdft is OK but after that, Im ramming them through as fast as I can.  It will eat as fast as I can push, so that helps. It a one pass an done, which helps, and it produces dead flat boards which helps.      

I run most 4/4 with one push block and one hand.  I run them smile up, bowed legs up, with the center of the bow down, with the grip pad dead center of down spot, so I can push down as hard as I need without having to worry about flexing the board.  I know this is against conventional wisdom, but there is no doubt it will leave a dead flat board when speed jointing.  I set the machine to 3/16 or 1/8 and if the board has more bow than that, it wont clean up after planing to 3/4 so its a one pass and done.  Running smile up totally eliminates push down flex and, it least with longer thinner boards that flex, makes a flatter surface.  It also only loads up my arms once per pass, as opposed to bowed ends down, where the arm load happens twice each board as each end gets flattened.  So that helps.
I dont know exactly how the effect happens, but the pushing force is about half of what it was on my 12 Grizz planer.  Maybe its the Xylent cutters, maybe its the huge cutter head diameter, maybe the grooved deck, maybe something else but although my Grizz worked, I called it the most hated tool in my shop, a necessary evil, and I would have run away screaming to the hills if I had dropped a forklift load of wood in front of it.    Now I just do it and send out a Twitter feed of the stack of wood to my customers so they know how hard I am working to get them flat wood.  
I use el cheapo Amazon purchased push blocks, but by far the most important thing is to run a dozen screws though it, maybe 1/16 sticking out through the face.  These cleats dig in to the board face and reduce the amount of down force required to push the board forward.  There are a few dimples in the board face, but those get cleaned off when the board goes through the planer.    
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Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2019, 02:58:23 PM »
I have a Tersa in a 12" Griggio ribbed bed jointer equipped with power feeder.  The cut is glass smooth and I can change knives in 30 seconds.  I planed some extreme curly maple last week.  I thought it interesting that I could hear the cutter head cutting through the curl but no tear out.

What I don't like is the noise and the HSS knives dull after a few thousand feet.  Carbide are available but expensive.

I also have the Byrd Shellix in my planer.  Its a much rougher cut than the Tersa.  I've never considered a planed surface to be a finished surface so the smoothness of the cut makes little difference to me.  I'll start finishing after either head with 150 grit sandpaper.

So....I would rather have a Shellix in my jointer because of the lack of noise and they run a long, long time before I have to rotate.  I'm not about to open my wallet to change, but I might buy some carbide knives for the Tersa some day.
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2019, 08:53:01 PM »
Does Griggio have a distributor in the US?  Where did you get yours?  First time i've ever heard of them.  Looks like they are I-talian.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2019, 09:18:39 PM »
Yes, Italian.  Been making machines since 1946.  A lot of there stuff is re-labeled.  My jointer is labeled Laguna.  They have been making some of the lower end Martin machines, probably have ties with other companies also.

| Griggio S.r.l
Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #108 on: February 07, 2019, 07:26:01 AM »
I just went to the link provided and sent them a request to see if they still sold power feeders for their surface jointers.  

I've seen some of their older feeders, they look nice, but I've not seen any built recently.

Larry, what year is your machine?  Are you happy with the feeder?  Do you have a picture?

Thanks.

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #109 on: February 07, 2019, 02:46:29 PM »
On their respective websites I don't see any jointers with the ribbed beds got Laguna or Griggio.  Laguna 12 and 16" jointers don't appear to be relabeled Griggio's.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #110 on: February 07, 2019, 07:39:12 PM »
The feeder is a HP Grizzly equipped with dual tires (like a tractor rear). When edge jointing I run it at its fastest speed which is 43' a minute and normally a 1/4" - 3/8 cut gives me a clean/perfect edge with one pass. It works great edge jointing.

Face jointing is a different story. Its a step up from hand feeding but I have to slow it way down to maybe 15' per minute. The feeder is too light, and not enough horsepower for face jointing but like I said its still better than hand feeding.

Mounting a feeder is also a problem on most jointers. I made a mount to bolt to the jointer framework which is really not heavy enough for a bigger feeder. I'm helping a friend that is bolting a post to the floor to carry a 1 HP feeder on an old restored 16" Oliver jointer.  The idea will also allow the feeder to be shared by a shaper behind the jointer.  We think its going to work.....

Some jointers, such as Martin are equipped to bolt on a feeders. I imagine SCMI have bolt on mounts also. The actual feeders used from the manufacture are quite different from normal 3 and 4 wheel feeders.


 

 

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Online tule peak timber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #111 on: February 07, 2019, 08:22:38 PM »
Larry, I like your mount-well done.
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #112 on: February 07, 2019, 11:08:21 PM »
Nice rig.  I haven't been able to find a SCMI feeder, or any other modern jointer feeder except the Shop Gear one.  I have a Powermatic 3 roll 1 hp feeder, but I've tried it face joining and it requires too much down pressure to get traction and press flattens the boards.  The feeder Tule Peak used has spring loaded fingers, which give much more lateral traction without undue down pressure.

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Online tule peak timber

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #113 on: February 08, 2019, 10:01:00 AM »
You can also switch to the blue (sticky ) tires which will require very little down pressure, allowing you to increase feed speed to reach the maximum the tooling will take.

 Sorry I don't have a better pic of the super soft blue colored wheels. I switched all the feeders in the shop to blue wheels several years ago , picked up speed and MUCH better performance from the different machines.The blue wheels don't distort the wood with pressure- ---Rob
persistence personified - never let up , never let down

Offline Larry

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #114 on: February 08, 2019, 10:24:29 AM »
Thanks for the complement Rob.

Shortly after I took the picture I replaced the tires with Western Roller soft blue ones. More traction with less pressure.

Four kinds of warp. Crook, cup, twist, and bow. I can correct crook and cup 100% and easily using the feeder. Twist is a problem but I see very few boards with that defect. Bow is a matter of choices. I could hand feed and get a perfect flat board. More than about 3/16 bow in a 8' board and I will start dropping below the minimum thickness. I could cut in half and use the feeder. The feeder will take out a small amount of bow dependent on how heavy of cut. I have the feeder positioned over the outfeed table which helps. If a small amount of bow I could just use the feeder and ignore any left over bow.

If you know the end user making those choices is easier. Any cabinet shop will make a sort as soon as they receive a bunk of lumber. The most visually perfect and straight lumber goes to rails, styles, and panels. Next is face frames and toe kicks where any bow can be eliminated by the carcase. Final sort is the ugly which might be used in french cleats, bracing, and other hidden parts. A perfect 12 drawer front can be cut from a board with lots of bow.

Larry, making useful and beautiful things out of the most environmental friendly material on the planet.

We need to insure our customers understand the importance of our craft.

Offline opticsguy

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2019, 10:36:35 AM »
Very cool machine, awesome!!

I must admit, I do not understand electricity.  In older times, an electric motor had wires going to an on-off switch and then to the outlet on the wall.   Your photo shows many complicated electrical components to run a motor.  Why the complexity?   

Thanks for sharing your new machine!!
TK 1220 band mill,  1952 Ford F-2, 1925 Dodge touring, too many telescopes.

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Re: New Toy (Tool)
« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2019, 01:23:42 PM »
Dual tires and blue wheels.  Looks like I have some web searching to do.  Great tips, thanks.  Where do you get the blue wheels? 

Seems like more than a step up from what I'm doing.  

I was even thinking of switching to some sort of inflatable wheel, so I could adjust the down pressure.  

Do the blue wheels work bette than the finger wheel feeder? 

The jointer has a surprising amount of switches, but mostly because of the electric safety brake, which is energized any time the machine has power.  Another button releases the brake to manual roll the cutterthead too check for damaged teeth.   
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