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Author Topic: Wheel Harvesters  (Read 2947 times)

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Offline Skeans1

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Wheel Harvesters
« on: November 29, 2017, 09:28:05 AM »
We do commercial thinning in NW Oregon with a JD 653 with a fabtek 4 roller for 20+ years and the time has come to finally replace the old girl. We've been back east to see the Barko 240 with a Skidmore, we had a fabtek 153 out for demo in 06, this last year I spent part of a day running a Komatsu 931 6 wheel, then not long ago I tried a Rottne H14 with a sp 561 on it. What are your guys experience with different machines as well as the pros and cons.

Online Gary_C

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 10:13:20 AM »
If I were you, I'd take a serious look at the Ponsse machines. I know Ponsse has a service center in Oregon and because they have had record sales of new machines in recent years, they have a good supply of good used trade ins.

Without knowing more about what terrain, type of trees, etc it's hard to give pros and cons about different machines. Plus I've only run Ponsse machines plus some older Valmets.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 10:51:59 AM »
Hi Skeans1 . Welcome I used to live in Clatskanie and still have a friend that retired out of Wana.
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 10:52:56 AM »
If I were you, I'd take a serious look at the Ponsse machines. I know Ponsse has a service center in Oregon and because they have had record sales of new machines in recent years, they have a good supply of good used trade ins.

Without knowing more about what terrain, type of trees, etc it's hard to give pros and cons about different machines. Plus I've only run Ponsse machines plus some older Valmets.
Terrain here can be steep, timber is mainly Doug fir, hemlock, true fir, spruce, then some hardwoods like alder. We looked at the ponsse down in Coburg they were ok a local company has one set a scorpion king as well as a Buffalo king that I know they've busted a few times but these guys can break anything plus the price is way out of line.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 10:54:05 AM »
Hi Skeans1 . Welcome I used to live in Clatskanie and still have a friend that retired out of Wana.
Nice I'm actually working up on the old Fibre Clatskanie heights 100 line beautiful area to live in.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 11:01:42 AM »
You can see Dave's house from there . He lives on top to the hill from the Grocery store . I ran an old KW for Evenson in 68 an69 .
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Online Gary_C

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 01:01:17 PM »
There is always a reason why some companies sell more machines and they cost more.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 03:40:49 PM »
There is always a reason why some companies sell more machines and they cost more.
In a clear cut you can justify a higher expensive on equipment but with thinning can you justify a 100k+ for the harvester?
I don't disagree they're nice but they're new out here still the standard for years was track machines, TJ 1270, and komatsu 931 have become super popular.
Rottne has a parts program like no one I've ever seen or heard of before.
There's a 1270G 8 wheel out here as well as a 931xc 8 wheel then two Rottne H14 & a H21.
On the scorpion with the boom all the way down can you get out of the cab? How have the heads held up back there in the hardwoods?

Offline barbender

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 04:34:18 PM »
If you can't justify more than $100k for the harvester, all you're going to find is wore out junk, I think. There are quite a few Ponsse machines working thinnings out there, not just clearcuts. I was under the impression that most of the machines were in thinnings.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 06:10:23 PM »
If you can't justify more than $100k for the harvester, all you're going to find is wore out junk, I think. There are quite a few Ponsse machines working thinnings out there, not just clearcuts. I was under the impression that most of the machines were in thinnings.
I know the prices of the new machines but what I meant is the 100k to 250k over say the quotes of the others. Yes there's some ponsse's out here in thinning as well as clear cuts, Miller has 4 set, L&L has a set, C&C has a set one of which we know personally and probably could try his scorpion but it's hard to justify the extra when the prices are as high as they are. We've been down to the Coburg facility with decent parts and people but that's almost 3 hours one way for parts for us.

Offline barbender

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 08:19:46 PM »
Gotcha. They are definitely an expensive machine, and take my opinion with a grain of salt- I just sit in a seat of one for someone else. You know your markets and margins. They have made the machines a lot more robust over the years, when they first showed up in North America they took a pretty bad beating getting thrown into hardwood. They hold up much better now.
Too many irons in the fire

Online Riwaka

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2017, 08:58:54 PM »
Why is there a shift from the tracked machines for thinning? Is there a directive from the land owners/ managers that they want wheeled machines to be used on their land?
New machine evaluation - look for the positives in your old machine and try and find them in a new machine.
Cat 501 HD track machine, 163 hp, good visibility.


John Deere 1170e 6x6 (how far off are Deere from bringing out a g series?) bigger crane than the 1070, 10 000lbs lighter than a 1270 8 wheeler, 1170e similar weight to the JD 653? but with more power.  John Deere Forestry Oy in Joensuu, Finland manufactures log forwarders, wheeled harvesters and harvesting heads.


1270e 8 wheel

The TCs new and used - a new TC 1135 wheeled, 228 horsepower,(big dollars)    Tigercat LX822C used 600 miles from pdx. put a pierce harvester boom/ arm on it with processing head of choice. TC has the steep ground trans and levelling, cummins etc. (Is it legal to bring low tier engines across the border or bring it across the line engineless?) Is California dumping the old low tier diesel trucks in Or still?
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/list/category/31437/forestry-equipment-feller-buncher/manufacturer/tigercat/model/lx822c


TC H820D   (Even title in the video is incorrect    http://www.tigercat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/H820D-LH820D-6pg-FINAL-web.pdf) Contact TC and see if any smaller machines are in the plans if 280 hp is too much)







Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2017, 10:55:24 PM »
Why is there a shift from the tracked machines for thinning? Is there a directive from the land owners/ managers that they want wheeled machines to be used on their land?
New machine evaluation - look for the positives in your old machine and try and find them in a new machine.
Cat 501 HD track machine, 163 hp, good visibility.


John Deere 1170e 6x6 (how far off are Deere from bringing out a g series?) bigger crane than the 1070, 10 000lbs lighter than a 1270 8 wheeler, 1170e similar weight to the JD 653? but with more power.  John Deere Forestry Oy in Joensuu, Finland manufactures log forwarders, wheeled harvesters and harvesting heads.


1270e 8 wheel

The TCs new and used - a new TC 1135 wheeled, 228 horsepower,(big dollars)    Tigercat LX822C used 600 miles from pdx. put a pierce harvester boom/ arm on it with processing head of choice. TC has the steep ground trans and levelling, cummins etc. (Is it legal to bring low tier engines across the border or bring it across the line engineless?) Is California dumping the old low tier diesel trucks in Or still?
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/list/category/31437/forestry-equipment-feller-buncher/manufacturer/tigercat/model/lx822c


TC H820D   (Even title in the video is incorrect    http://www.tigercat.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/H820D-LH820D-6pg-FINAL-web.pdf) Contact TC and see if any smaller machines are in the plans if 280 hp is too much)

One reason I'm thinking of switching is there's wind of us being required to tether thin so other then a 725 leveler which is honestly on the heavy side for good stand quality as well as width a track machine is out.
John Deere has been a good machine but the issue becomes parts after 10 years which is one reason I have to get rid of this 653 there's a section in the valve that is unique to only that machine.
Tigercat is a great machine but the issue is weight as well as width would make it a no go from the start.
Cat has the same issue as Deere and personally our dealer out here isn't good for much other then big equipment such as a 568. But I'm done with the 4 roller yes Robin designed a great head but the hoses and maintenance gets old as well as no bottom knife kills production right now yes we push 3 to 4 loads a day easy with a 2 man crew but having to pull the top knives over the butt is a time killer.
The Barko and Skidmore would work but the requirements that they put on us for row spacing have made it tough plus the weight of a 22" head has gotten a little out of hand.
Sp Maskiner heads look like a good tough head, ponsse look like a good head, komatsu c144, as well as the Deere 480.

Offline 1270d

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2017, 11:03:09 PM »
You can get out of a scorpion with the boom down.  Terry from L&L did a very good comparison vid eo of 1270g vs scorpion king.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2017, 11:04:29 PM »
Gotcha. They are definitely an expensive machine, and take my opinion with a grain of salt- I just sit in a seat of one for someone else. You know your markets and margins. They have made the machines a lot more robust over the years, when they first showed up in North America they took a pretty bad beating getting thrown into hardwood. They hold up much better now.
We are a complete in house set up with 3 guys total myself cutting, one guy on a forwarder, then the other owner the truck driver, I don't have anything against them other then the price and what I've heard from around the grapevine about them which has good as well as bad. If I wasn't an owner operator I wouldn't care what I had to run as long as it ran and preformed the task at hand, but being one it makes you think about everything from fuel to parts to what the dealer is like.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2017, 11:06:36 PM »
You can get out of a scorpion with the boom down.  Terry from L&L did a very good comparison vid eo of 1270g vs scorpion king.
I saw that and have seen that 1270 in person it's a big girl now for height which makes me wonder about moving the machine around on our ground bearing lowboy for both machines or even a komatsu.

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2017, 11:07:01 PM »
There's a newer Valmet 931.4 ? Working next to my house, operator says in redpine its great but dont get into much hardwood. We "used to" have a weight limit and width limit on state jobs here, I've heard region 6 is trying to deter guys from rubber iron, supposedly because of compaction but I don't get it.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2017, 11:16:25 PM »
 

 
Here's some of the fir we can be in down to dog hair stands, our alder is a softer hardwood it's different almost never grows straight but loves to pop or chair out.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2017, 11:19:23 PM »
There's a newer Valmet 931.4 ? Working next to my house, operator says in redpine its great but dont get into much hardwood. We "used to" have a weight limit and width limit on state jobs here, I've heard region 6 is trying to deter guys from rubber iron, supposedly because of compaction but I don't get it.
Isn't that the 931xc 8 wheel if so there's one out here.
There's no real weight limit out here maybe on state wood but company thinning we don't, I know they prefer us to stay under 50k for weight. For compaction I'd think a forwarder would be worse for that with how many trips you make over the same area.

Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2017, 06:53:33 AM »
I've heard region 6 is trying to deter guys from rubber iron, supposedly because of compaction but I don't get it.

That doesn't make any sense a rubber tire machine with bogie axles has less ground pressure and much less ground disturbance than a tracked machine.... Through a set or two of over the tire tracks on the bogies and the ground pressure can be less than that of a pickup truck.

Offline Gearbox

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2017, 10:19:19 AM »
Skeans1 I talked to my friend Dave and he said he may be able to stop up and see you . He said he met one of your trucks going up the mtn out of town .  Is the wood going to Longview ?
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 03:38:09 PM »
Skeans1 I talked to my friend Dave and he said he may be able to stop up and see you . He said he met one of your trucks going up the mtn out of town .  Is the wood going to Longview ?
Yeah it's all going to Longview since the pulp/old sort yard closed last year.

Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2017, 11:04:44 PM »
I've heard region 6 is trying to deter guys from rubber iron, supposedly because of compaction but I don't get it.

That doesn't make any sense a rubber tire machine with bogie axles has less ground pressure and much less ground disturbance than a tracked machine.... Through a set or two of over the tire tracks on the bogies and the ground pressure can be less than that of a pickup truck.
I kind of wondered when j heard it, these guys buy ALOT of wood, probably one of the biggest softwood producers in NY state, got talking about iron and he said they have 4 on track and 1 rubber machine.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2017, 12:10:29 AM »
I've heard region 6 is trying to deter guys from rubber iron, supposedly because of compaction but I don't get it.

That doesn't make any sense a rubber tire machine with bogie axles has less ground pressure and much less ground disturbance than a tracked machine.... Through a set or two of over the tire tracks on the bogies and the ground pressure can be less than that of a pickup truck.
I kind of wondered when j heard it, these guys buy ALOT of wood, probably one of the biggest softwood producers in NY state, got talking about iron and he said they have 4 on track and 1 rubber machine.
It may depend on how they are thinning one bonus to a track machine like a 415, 653, 608, 501, 240 is they're narrower then a wheel machine so you can zip into your thinning from a row or do ghost thinning rows. Also how long is a track frame vs the tracked up tire I've never measured our 1210 but I wouldn't be surprised if it's not shorter then our 653 track frame.

Offline chevytaHOE5674

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2017, 09:12:56 AM »
If you worried about compaction the harvester isn't a real concern the forwarder is. An 8 wheel harvester with tracks all around will float more than any comparably sized tracked carrier I've seen, but no matter what the forwarder is the same and heavier than anything.

Benefit of a rubber tired machine in a thinning is the boom reach. The ponsse I ran had a reach of close to 30 feet so in a row type thinning you could thin multiple rows from one spot.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2017, 11:17:04 AM »
If you worried about compaction the harvester isn't a real concern the forwarder is. An 8 wheel harvester with tracks all around will float more than any comparably sized tracked carrier I've seen, but no matter what the forwarder is the same and heavier than anything.

Benefit of a rubber tired machine in a thinning is the boom reach. The ponsse I ran had a reach of close to 30 feet so in a row type thinning you could thin multiple rows from one spot.
A buddy has a 415 with 34 like a ex10 but the longest I know of is a Rottne H14 with 39 which would be nice as well as a good way to break something.

Offline barbender

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2017, 02:37:05 PM »
Yep, the width of your harvester doesn't matter much, if your forwarder is wider. It's always longer, our processors can cut narrower strips and tighter corners, I tell them don't bother. What's the point if I can't get in there to pick it up?
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2017, 03:42:39 PM »
Yep, the width of your harvester doesn't matter much, if your forwarder is wider. It's always longer, our processors can cut narrower strips and tighter corners, I tell them don't bother. What's the point if I can't get in there to pick it up?
We'll go in and cut a yarding row then either walk in to thin the area more shooting out to each yarding row. The ghost thinning is you have two yarding rows on each side of your cutting row well shooting the wood to either yarding row.

Online Riwaka

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2017, 05:27:09 AM »
Be interesting to see if the 'Eltec' company grows market share. Stayed with Cummins and plenty of power for the machine.  Eltec 220 series - zero tail swing.
Light thinning or heavy thinning? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3RFON8omFI&feature=youtu.be

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2017, 07:13:57 AM »
I've been following this thread gathering any info I can store in my noggin.  If all goes as planned I will have my tracked harvester paid off very soon and am considering another machine as there seems to be lots of wood available locally.  The wood basket however is going to be largely managed stands with lots of smaller diameter wood.  I'm thinking a wheeled harvester may be my next purchase. 
Skeans1 good luck with whatever you decide
Lots of toys for working in the bush

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2017, 08:05:15 AM »
We traded in our cat 501 on a Ponsse ergo, and in my opinion, the operator comfort alone makes up for the difference in price. I feel so much better at the end of the day now, itís almost unbelievable. I hope I never sit on tracks again
2016 Ponsse ergo 8w
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2017, 09:56:56 AM »
We traded in our cat 501 on a Ponsse ergo, and in my opinion, the operator comfort alone makes up for the difference in price. I feel so much better at the end of the day now, itís almost unbelievable. I hope I never sit on tracks again
If I wasn't probably going to need a leveler of some sort I'd probably go with a barko 240 and with an ergo that'd be an issue in the northwest with the new rules coming out. One big reason we're thinking wheel is weight, width, and easy of tethering if I have to go that route.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2017, 10:04:19 AM »
Be interesting to see if the 'Eltec' company grows market share. Stayed with Cummins and plenty of power for the machine.  Eltec 220 series - zero tail swing.
Light thinning or heavy thinning? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3RFON8omFI&feature=youtu.be
Out here where I am they won't take hold with the weight and being non leveling plus it's almost 11 feet wide not good for thinning.

Offline 1270d

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2017, 10:40:22 AM »
There's always write ups in the different magazines loggers world, timberwest etc about wheeled machines thinning out there.   Is it just a publicity push or are some of the guys noticing benefits over tracked carriers.    My harvester measures 10'2" wide

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2017, 12:09:24 PM »
There's always write ups in the different magazines loggers world, timberwest etc about wheeled machines thinning out there.   Is it just a publicity push or are some of the guys noticing benefits over tracked carriers.    My harvester measures 10'2" wide
It's a more of a push since out here by the manufacturers like Deere ECT to get rid of the smaller track carriers, the 415, 608, & 653 were super popular out here for thinning even when the 1270's and valmets were out here. One reason a lot of us ran that stuff is our ground and how wet it gets where a wheel machine you can slip till this assist came out. At one time the tree farm I'm on had 5 sets of fabteks heads all of us cutting long wood in thinning 3 of which were 653's, one was a 490, and a 425 leveler other machines were one 1270 and a 608 all they did was cut short wood.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2017, 06:18:11 PM »
I've got a question for the guys running scorpions and komatsu harvesters how are the rotex bearings holding up under the cab? My only thought is that's a big long leveler with weight on a small bearing for the mass from looking at it.

Offline 1270d

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2017, 07:23:18 AM »
I only have 5500 hours on mine so not surprising there hasn't been any issues.   

I also run an auto greaser so it's greased constantly instead of once a day.

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2017, 01:36:11 PM »

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2017, 06:45:13 PM »
Ponsse tethered harvester Oregon.
http://troutmountain.com/forestry-blog/2017/9/26/tethered-logging-steep-slope-options
 Tethered Ponsse

That's Miller timber service, one of the foresters for trout mountain use to work for them they mainly do government type work. I don't have an issue with ponsse but the price doesn't show the difference for an ergo vs say a H14 or a 1270G. Here locally they're talking about setting up rentals of another system.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2017, 08:28:19 PM »
I think forests would benefit a lot from harvester and forwarder rentals.  Would take a lot of pressure off the mechanized crew to cut cut cut no matter what what what.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2017, 08:53:37 PM »
I think forests would benefit a lot from harvester and forwarder rentals.  Would take a lot of pressure off the mechanized crew to cut cut cut no matter what what what.
Problem is out here would be the stuff is mainly used for thinning which honestly isn't something everyone can do or make it profitable. The winch systems is what I was told they were going to rent, could you imagine what a 500k+ machine would look like if you let just any crew rent it?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2017, 09:36:54 PM »
Oh i didnt say the lease corporation would survive long.  Im sayin the forest might

 :D

Offline 1270d

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2017, 10:21:15 PM »
That would be slick to rent/lease the tether system.  Better than shelling out a couple hundred grand for a setup if you don't use it much

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2017, 11:05:32 PM »
That would be slick to rent/lease the tether system.  Better than shelling out a couple hundred grand for a setup if you don't use it much
We were looking at some of our personal thinning ground that's due we could use the system there's no way to get to the bottom otherwise, plus it's only one machine for both yarding and cutting which makes more sense to me.

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2017, 07:28:33 PM »
John Deere g series smaller wheel harvester 1070G (4 and 6 wheel ) 1170G 6 and 8 wheel.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 12:56:57 AM »
John Deere g series smaller wheel harvester 1070G (4 and 6 wheel ) 1170G 6 and 8 wheel.

Thank you, if we go Deere it would most likely be a 1270 one reason is the capacity of the head they can handle for the wood we see here in some of the thinning we do. The 1170 far as I know hasn't been sold out here before one reason could be the crane not being strong enough on the slopes we see or for the wood we see out here for weight.

Online Riwaka

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2017, 02:31:24 PM »

Logset from Finland, heads look fairly robust, power to weight ratio could be better than John Deere. Logset standard with Mesera crane.
https://www.logset.com/harvesters/logset-8h-gt

log set  8h gt  (300hp Agco engine?)
 

john deere 1470e h290 haas winch(mesera 280 crane)





Offline Skeans1

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Re: Wheel Harvesters
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2018, 08:21:30 PM »
Had this H14C show up today it's interesting having leveling after so long of a non tilting machine, I will say I wouldn't do a machine without a turning cab just for backing up as well as having it follow the crane is worth it.
 

 

 


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