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Author Topic: My walnut thread  (Read 6311 times)

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Offline nativewolf

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My walnut thread
« on: December 02, 2017, 08:38:24 PM »
Ok, thought I'd post a bit about the topic of walnut.  First I have been having a terrible time with my phone, lost lots and lots of photos after to reboots.  Sigh.

Here's a picture of the 4th load getting moved onto the deck.  In this load we have to unload logs from my small flatbed (24' Hino flatbed) onto the deck where my logger can then load them onto his truck.  Mostly buck up at this point.  Not a great day today as 3 great great logs went south on us by 4-7 inches and we lost maybe $3K going from veneer to really good sawlogs. 

This was the first; thought we'd cut out of the metal and the log had barely enough room for 2 logs.  Sigh, hit stain again.  I won't even sell that one, just keep it for my personal use.



Not all lost though because the next tree (which also had 2 flaws right where they killed veneer grade) had limbs that were sawlogs.  18" sawlog at the small end of the second log cut off this branch, 7' logs is mostly what I cut at this diameter.



Maybe I can post a few logs that will make veneer next week, one is a great tree, question is 9 or 8' veneer.  Any longer and it will move into a crotch.  I'll keep the crotch and sell the log.  Another was a powerline neighbor, had to cable it high up the trunk and pull, but it is 16' to 24" DIB.  Not a single flaw. 
Liking Walnut

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 08:57:06 PM »


30" walnut coming down.  Very difficult cut this was, gutted out center and still cracked a bit.  The real problem was a small open rotten spot in the base, could not cut it out as there were large knots up the trunk.  Potential big payday gone.  However, our cutter did superb job getting it down safely and quickly with only 1 branch busted and no save trees touched.

Here's a typical situation in Walnut, every 6" counts so if we still have crotch double branch showing we'll shave 6" off til we get a single pith, this was perfect, 6" cut with flipped to show we got out of the crotch.  It saved this log at 10'6" and we'll ask for veneer for this one.



That is the log, a bit wide sapwood but today we can still get veneer on this, maybe just $5/bdft but we'll take it after a rough rough day and very inaccessible logs.
Liking Walnut

Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 09:24:55 PM »
Nice
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2017, 09:26:12 PM »
https://www.buyvatrees.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?preadd=action&key=WALNUT__BLACK_1-0

Virginia State Dept of Forestry sells seedlings, out of stock right now but 1000 for $315 is a good price.  Commercial nurseries are about 50% more but that is still cheap cheap.

You can also plant seeds or just put a bunch of seeds in some old composting sawdust and keep it wet, they'll sprout and you can plant viable seedlings right where you want them. 
Liking Walnut

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2017, 09:32:22 PM »
Nice

We got the truck load, 2.5k bdft but it was a full 8 hour day for 3 of us.  We'll be lucky if that is a $6k load and quite a bit of that is costs.  Thursday was an amazing day 6 hours and 4 of 8 were veneer trees.  Haven't even bucked them yet.  Twice the net and less effort. 
Liking Walnut

Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2017, 09:46:39 PM »
If its any consolation, ill split wood all year for less.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2017, 10:15:43 PM »
Man we are lucky as pigs in swill, flys on honey, or TN football with a 1 game winning streak.  Yep, no complaints here.  Need to fix our broken down skidder...no other complaints.  Wish I could mechanize the felling somehow, need a large machine to properly hold and drop 30" hardwood, even walnut (which is light). 
Liking Walnut

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 08:45:34 AM »
Ok, had several private messages.  In the interest of this forum I'm going to respond globally but I completely understand if the message is private.

So, Walnut pricing.  I don't really have super special logs there in those pictures.  The picture where we chased the crotch out moved that from $2.5/bdft  to maybe 4 but I hope $5/bdft.  Really the question is how to slice the log to maximize the grade and small end diameter given that we can sell down 4' and 7' increments can pay 3.5. 

We get, at a minimum, $1/bdft for anything walnut, even firewood.

We sell down to 4' increments.  I sold a leftover chunk of 20" 5' long walnut for $130 last week.  Any other species it would have been in the burn pile.

Veneer rejects question: if it does not make veneer and is a large log, like some pictures I'll post later today, we will get at least $3/bdft but maybe $3.5/bdft. 

If it is really a crotch piece they will slaughter the crotch and leave one stem as the DIB that they are buying and then only pay 1.X or maybe 2.  Sigh. 

I have the most amazing crotch log to mark today and I'm a bit torn, I'm chasing a 9' veneer grade log (requiring 9'6") but I will likely still have a double stem.  In which case I am going to make a decision to leave it or cut
back 6" to get the double stem out.  However, I'm going to leave a crotch that is 4' wide.  Very flat and nice.  Wish I had a slab business built up I'd buy the log from the owner and keep it and slab it myself.  That's a story for 2 years down the line. 
Liking Walnut

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 07:35:33 PM »


well we got it loaded this morning, rolling first thing Monday and then get the last of this property bucked and loaded by the afternoon.
Liking Walnut

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 08:20:19 PM »
Ahh, one more thing.  This is going to be about 2500 bdft, walnut is crooked when you are shipping tops and branch pieces.  This was from 9 trees.  I'm finding that in our neck of the woods (n va) this is about average.  So 280 bdft per tree? 
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Offline NWP

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 09:30:36 PM »
Why would someone pay $1/bd ft for walnut firewood logs?
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 06:50:20 AM »
Well they aren't using them for firewood obviously!   We aren't sure what the deal is and neither is our exporter.  In China they are doing something with them.  We all have seen someone salvage firewood and turn it into table legs, etc.  I guess that is what they are doing.  We ship down to a 8" top even though there is hardly any scale.  Where we really come ahead is sending fat cull pieces 4-6' long leftovers, maybe when we cut a sweep out or a bad knot, etc.  Then we still get paid for that footage and end up with a much higher grade log (just giving example).  Point being, 8" top any amount of curve,knot, sweep, etc it pays at $1/bdft. 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 08:33:30 AM »
Wow. I hear about people feeding it to the stove all the time.

Our church pews have thick walnut millwork with a heavy sweep on the arm rest, almost an S bend.  Few hundred of em.  Someone made a few bucks on them twisty limbs. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 09:03:25 AM »
Wow. I hear about people feeding it to the stove all the time.

Our church pews have thick walnut millwork with a heavy sweep on the arm rest, almost an S bend.  Few hundred of em.  Someone made a few bucks on them twisty limbs.

I know, I see guys advertising walnut in firewood postings.  Heck, I know a logger didn't even want to bother bidding on a stand that was part of a sale close to me that had 8 merchantable walnut trees and 2 of those probably veneer.  So he basically is saying, yeah I don't want to bother skidding out $4-5k in walnut.  I mean I would drive over for just that walnut.  Cut them and winch them with a tractor if we had to and parbuckle onto a trailer.  1 day work as it is very easy access some so close to the field that they'll fall in the field.  So, go figure, I don't get people in the business who don't understand walnut value/pricing.  I thought ok, if there is that level of misunderstanding..then I'd start this thread. 

Everyone on the forum has been great and very helpful and I didn't want others making the same mistake by leaving money on the table.
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Offline TKehl

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 10:16:31 AM »
I know what you mean.  I have to watch my OWN FAMILY!  Saw that dad had some small walnut on the back of the truck (under 4") where he was cutting in to some bigger firewood.  After I interrogated him  :D, it turned out to be just a dead limb that blew down.  I've tried to make sure they know not to cut even dead walnut of any size.

Have to mark firewood trees for my uncles and cousins.  They like to take nice straight White Oak about 10-12" diameter because, "it's easier to split" than the junky ones I mark.    >:( ::)
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2017, 10:25:49 AM »
I know what you mean.  I have to watch my OWN FAMILY!  Saw that dad had some small walnut on the back of the truck (under 4") where he was cutting in to some bigger firewood.  After I interrogated him  :D, it turned out to be just a dead limb that blew down.  I've tried to make sure they know not to cut even dead walnut of any size.

Have to mark firewood trees for my uncles and cousins.  They like to take nice straight White Oak about 10-12" diameter because, "it's easier to split" than the junky ones I mark.    >:( ::)

Ha, nice young WO firewood, nothing as nice.
Liking Walnut

Offline Resonator

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2017, 12:50:51 PM »
New guy question. Just curious, what is the "shelf life" of cut walnut logs? Worked with guy last summer that some cut along his property, and he had been burning them for firewood. He said they had been down for a couple years, and I wondered how fast walnut decays/attracts bugs and if it could be still usable. I would just be sawing them with my mill, not trying to sell logs. Thanks.
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Offline TKehl

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 01:03:31 PM »
Can't speak for commercial buyers, but I have some I'm itching to cut up that have been dead 5-10 years with all the sapwood rotted off.  The heartwood is what most people are after and it stays good a very long time.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 05:59:00 PM »
As long as just want the heartwood I think that forest floor aged walnut is the prettiest.  It just looks like dark milk chocolate. 

As Tkehl says the sapwood is gone but the heart remains.  Try some and post!  I have one I'm going to get sawn from my own property.

Got some more pictures I'll post tonight.
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Offline Resonator

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 07:05:59 PM »
It would be a road trip (to a neighboring state) to get to the logs, and I'm still running the numbers (fuel/time) if its worth the trip. It would be at least next year before I could get to them, but at least now I know the wood keeps for a long time, and could still be good. A relative, much closer to home, has a tree he plans to remove next to his house. That will probably the first walnut I run through my mill. Thanks for the info!
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 08:05:34 PM »
It would be a road trip (to a neighboring state) to get to the logs, and I'm still running the numbers (fuel/time) if its worth the trip. It would be at least next year before I could get to them, but at least now I know the wood keeps for a long time, and could still be good. A relative, much closer to home, has a tree he plans to remove next to his house. That will probably the first walnut I run through my mill. Thanks for the info!

Wonderful milling wood, drying can be more a challenge according to the drying experts. I have only air dried. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2018, 11:59:15 AM »
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240419

Instead of growing pine maybe you guys should plant one of these, 20 acres, almost pure Walnut.


http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240418

One of the nice ones.
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240417
Looking up the same trunk.  34" and 50' to first limbs. 

That one tree could be worth 3 acres of pine plantation. 

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240416
Just one more photo...about the average tree we'll cut off this grove.  Almost all are 16' to limbs, some 32, some more. 
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Offline samandothers

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2018, 01:34:40 PM »
Wow, nice!

I am having to cut some walnut for a house site.  Most is smaller than should be cut but it is in the way.  A few trees are 16" or so dbh.   Fortunately there will still be some after the site is cleared to grow on!

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2018, 07:55:06 PM »
If someone could fix my photos I'd be so appreciative.  I've got the links to the gallery but says I don't have permission to put photo in post?  Could do it before, sort of strange
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2018, 10:27:16 PM »
Chaching.
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Offline VirginiaFarm

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2018, 11:47:17 PM »
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240419

Instead of growing pine maybe you guys should plant one of these, 20 acres, almost pure Walnut.


http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240418

One of the nice ones.
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240417
Looking up the same trunk.  34" and 50' to first limbs. 

That one tree could be worth 3 acres of pine plantation. 

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240416
Just one more photo...about the average tree we'll cut off this grove.  Almost all are 16' to limbs, some 32, some more.

Haha I wish. Some beautiful wood. That one tree seems exceptional for the walnut I have seen around here. Most big trees here go up 8-14 feet and then fork in a myriad of directions. Our better trees are smaller (16"-24") and only straight for 20-30 feet.

Offline Ianab

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2018, 01:15:34 AM »
While it's true that the Walnut is worth WAY more, the time it takes to grow is also a lot longer.  A big tree like that might take ~100 years to grow?

Now if you have an existing forest, and can harvest a % of the trees every 10-20 years, and let the best ones grow to that size, you have a decent commercial basis.

But if you are establishing a forest on bare land the maths doesn't work as good. First off, the payback is longer than your lifetime. Maybe a retirement fund for your grandchildren, if you can keep the taxes etc paid for the next 100 years. Now if you plant pines you might have 3 or 4 paying crops. So if you (or your descendents) take that and reinvest it for the next 75 - 50 - 25 years, at the eventual hardwood harvest time the $$ have really built up.

So to the bean counter types, the short rotation / get a return in your lifetime system makes more sense.

And yes that's a pity, as it would be fantastic to be able to commercially grow trees like our Rimu and Kauri pine. It's beautiful wood, could be grown in a plantation system, and it's very valuable now as most of it has been logged. The few remaining trees on private land are heavily protected, and can only be cut by permit. And to do that you have to have a "sustainable management plan", for trees that take 200-400 years to mature. A local guy has ~1,000 acres of bush, and his harvest is about 4 or 5 trees a year. 

I'm also surprised by the low value of the pine. Good PRUNED logs are fetching almost $200 a ton locally, which even with the exchange rate is about US$150. Regular saw logs, more like $100-150 ton.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2018, 07:14:31 AM »
Here in Virginia Walnut grow quickly and pine grows..ok.  Not like you lucky Kiwis or WDH.  The return on all the super intensive work is crushed when you loose the market for the pulp.  Then you are growing sawtimber and that's a very different game and longer rotations.  I can grow a small timber walnut in 40 years, the difference is waiting the extra 10 years to get prime pricing. 

Still 50 years at $20,000/acre vs 2 25 year rotations yielding $1200 net/rotation.  Not doing a complex PNV because ....

The key is that people don't value the young walnut stands appropritately.  That lady in MO who had the young plantation , 12-14" diameters, and needed to get rid of it, wanted money.  She had no market for a stand that would be worth quite a penny in 20 years.  If someone in GA would  take equal money and go to MO and buy her walnut I am pretty sure which would be the better investment after 20 years. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2018, 07:24:34 AM »
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240419

Instead of growing pine maybe you guys should plant one of these, 20 acres, almost pure Walnut.


http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240418

One of the nice ones.
http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240417
Looking up the same trunk.  34" and 50' to first limbs. 

That one tree could be worth 3 acres of pine plantation. 

http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=240416
Just one more photo...about the average tree we'll cut off this grove.  Almost all are 16' to limbs, some 32, some more.

Haha I wish. Some beautiful wood. That one tree seems exceptional for the walnut I have seen around here. Most big trees here go up 8-14 feet and then fork in a myriad of directions. Our better trees are smaller (16"-24") and only straight for 20-30 feet.

We'll be collecting walnuts there and hopefully get a good crop of regeneration, I want to plant some of that stock on my farm.  The whole stand, 20 acres looks amazing.  The key to walnut is to have competition, they need to race for sunlight.  Yellow Poplar, Sycamore, Oaks, all do a good job of keeping them honest and self pruning.  That is why walnut in river bottoms look so nice, they had to race for the sunlight. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2018, 07:48:21 AM »
Native,
Since you can't get your pix to post, thought I'd sprinkle some walnut porn here from sawing yesterday!  :D ;D :D

Almost 5' across at big end. Will post more on Sawing thread.



The log was frozen so the color didn't even out yet. Each slab is appx 80bf!  :o
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2018, 07:49:02 AM »
Dang thats pretty

Ive been looking really hard lately and came up with a fact.  Trees growin in the hollar are taller. 

  If theres a 20ft vertical bluff, and one grows ontop but the other just over the ledge down bottom and theyre close enough to touch crowns, the one on the bottom achieves same height as the one on top.

  Its kinda like being tricked by google maps.  The forest roof looks to just roll gently, but the forest floor can be violently steep peaks and ravines.  The trees kinda smooth the topography by varying their length in that race for canopy.  I guess thats another virtue for those willing to log in craggy steep ground.  Every tree you winch up carries an extra log or two. 


Economically, im starting to have a hard time denying the virtue of hay. 

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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2018, 08:07:42 AM »
Mike, yes Site Index...is a wonderful thing to understantd.  Neat how the forest conceals much of the topographic variation because the higher site index of the moist soils in ravines, lower spots, and the added benefit of soils eroding down slope depositing nutrients downslope. 

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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2018, 08:09:10 AM »
Native,
Since you can't get your pix to post, thought I'd sprinkle some walnut porn here from sawing yesterday!  :D ;D :D

Almost 5' across at big end. Will post more on Sawing thread.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

The log was frozen so the color didn't even out yet. Each slab is appx 80bf!  :o
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Lovely crotch.  I have request for hundreds but man...equipment challenges abound.  Crane went down, skidder blew tire, etc  sawmill stuck in a mudhole we can't get logs to...sigh.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2018, 08:36:54 AM »
That sounds about right. It's always something. Last week loader hydraulic line failed (not due to anything in contact with it). Went for a replacement and no one had it. Hydraulics place couldn't match fitting. Finally got it replaced. Very first log went to pickup with grapple, hydraulic hose fitting came loose and sprayed me in the face with fluid.  >:( :-[

In spite of it, I have a decent amount of walnut 4/4 - 10/4 and slabs. If the going gets too rough, look me up!  ;D
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2018, 09:02:54 AM »
Aint that the truth.  I brought my dozer home for maintenance and then got my forklift stuck with no dozer to pull it out.  Go through dozer steer controls and other stuff,  get it fired up to pull forklift out,  one push and reverse goes.  Week later ground freezes just enough to drive forklift out, get truck stuck.  Dozer is in just the right spot to pull truck forward, go to start, solenoid sparks and fails. 

This is just trying to get out of my dang yard!  LOL
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Offline cbay

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2018, 09:13:36 AM »
Great thread.   I'm realizing i don't know enough yet to be hitting our walnuts for a while.    So far the only thing i've done with some we had laying around is make some beehives. 
If i can learn to maximize them then it would be much easier to take the proceeds and hopefully find some softwood for making the hives.

Offline TKehl

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2018, 09:50:37 AM »
Neat how the forest conceals much of the topographic variation because the higher site index of the moist soils in ravines, lower spots, and the added benefit of soils eroding down slope depositing nutrients downslope.

Not to mention the wind protection in the hollers...

I feel for you guys with equipment.  Was selling feeder pigs last weekend and the truck and trailer was blocking the drive and wouldn't start.  Should have seen the look on my wife's face when I jumped the ditch in the minivan.   ;D  Made it to church on time though.   :D 

Sucks having to fix three things before starting on the thing you wanted to start fixing.   ::)
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2018, 10:56:03 AM »
I have discovered that bourbon is a suitable remedy to most equipment failures. (well, generally failure of any sort including, people failures, business failures, disobedient pets and children failures, weather failures, motivational failures, on and on...)  ;D :D

This little friend rides in the back of my RTV! (as demonstrated by it's worn/tattered look)

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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2018, 04:34:06 PM »
I employed a fella named jim beam for a while until i ran out of money and he quit showin up for work. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2018, 10:44:32 AM »
Great thread.   I'm realizing i don't know enough yet to be hitting our walnuts for a while.    So far the only thing i've done with some we had laying around is make some beehives. 
If i can learn to maximize them then it would be much easier to take the proceeds and hopefully find some softwood for making the hives.

Glad you like the thread.  Can't believe someone in MO is making beehives with it...your bees are the bees knees of bees. 

Ok, so in MO you have the best buyers market around, literally could get 10 loggers to bid on a walnut job there.  Or, 10 log buyers to look at logs.  Very competitive. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2018, 10:49:28 AM »
Some updates on pricing.  We hear...we hear...have not verified that the top walnut veneer logs could fetch $10/bdft to the right buyer. My issue is finding the right buyer, we keep doing better and better but with this large walnut job we have to put more effort into it.  Not many trees but from 7 to 10 is worth a bit of effort. 
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2018, 12:00:30 PM »


Nice old tree, found 20 others close to it but this was the king of this old field.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2018, 12:11:19 PM »


So can post this now, this tree was spectacular,  30+" and straight up 2 logs

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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2018, 01:15:01 PM »
Man you really are good at finding those dang things!
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Offline Wudman

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2018, 01:27:06 PM »
Are you seeing any issues with Thousand Canker Disease?  We have a quarantine in place in the Greater Richmond area and surrounding counties.  I know there is a quarantine area around Prince William County, Falls Church, Fairfax, & Manassas.  One more thing to wipe out our resources.  By the way.....nice walnut.  I have a couple of small ones in my pond that sunk.  I need to fish them out.

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2018, 02:00:39 PM »
"Highly valuable Black Walnut tree!" :laugh:
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2018, 11:08:56 PM »
Are you seeing any issues with Thousand Canker Disease?  We have a quarantine in place in the Greater Richmond area and surrounding counties.  I know there is a quarantine area around Prince William County, Falls Church, Fairfax, & Manassas.  One more thing to wipe out our resources.  By the way.....nice walnut.  I have a couple of small ones in my pond that sunk.  I need to fish them out.

Wudman

I haven't seen any TCD yet.  Sure I will.  Just going to monitor for now.  Yeah this one tract makes me feel like I am in S Indiana or N Missouri  or something.  Crazy nice.  Going to take 50% of the stems and see if the younger stems release.  According to my contacts in MO they should release and grow quickly.  We'll see.  Maybe come back and do it again in 10 years.  Surprised no one on here is a walnut logger from there.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2018, 11:09:52 PM »
"Highly valuable Black Walnut tree!" :laugh:

Sometimes...sometimes they are right.  In this case, the logger tried to tell her she had scrawny walnut; "not worth much".  Some people give us all a bad name.
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Offline VirginiaFarm

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2018, 01:00:36 AM »
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Nice old tree, found 20 others close to it but this was the king of this old field.

Another beautiful specimen. So for the scrawny trees nearby and perhaps the one right next to this tree- are those being taken out because of their crooks and defects or left in the hopes of encouraging younger ones to grow straight?

Offline SW Oh Logger

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2018, 09:51:29 AM »
Are you seeing any issues with Thousand Canker Disease?  We have a quarantine in place in the Greater Richmond area and surrounding counties.  I know there is a quarantine area around Prince William County, Falls Church, Fairfax, & Manassas.  One more thing to wipe out our resources.  By the way.....nice walnut.  I have a couple of small ones in my pond that sunk.  I need to fish them out.

Wudman

I haven't seen any TCD yet.  Sure I will.  Just going to monitor for now.  Yeah this one tract makes me feel like I am in S Indiana or N Missouri  or something.  Crazy nice.  Going to take 50% of the stems and see if the younger stems release.  According to my contacts in MO they should release and grow quickly.  We'll see.  Maybe come back and do it again in 10 years.  Surprised no one on here is a walnut logger from there.
  I'm not from MO, but S/W Ohio where we cut preety good walnut at times--some really big old trees also that have been passed over yrs. ago. The farmland is rich here, a different type of soil than MO.  I've cut walnut for nearly 40 yrs. now, still cutting. We have fairly good competition for our logs--maybe your area isn't know for walnut primarily although those youv'e look great! Hows the peck, the sap, any pins on that big one--is that a "wing" there to your right or just a small seam? Hope it cuts good--don't give up on buyers, keep looking further away from your main area. By the way, are you in the greater Warrenton area? Our youngest son lives in Arlington, we are often up there visiting him. Maybe I could contact you  up there sometime?
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2018, 08:00:56 PM »
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Nice old tree, found 20 others close to it but this was the king of this old field.

Another beautiful specimen. So for the scrawny trees nearby and perhaps the one right next to this tree- are those being taken out because of their crooks and defects or left in the hopes of encouraging younger ones to grow straight?

That's a hackberry to the side of it.  We'll leave it as in this forest we have a lot of hackberry/walnut and since the hackberry are not dominate and not too competitive it seems to do little harm to leave it.   Our hope is that we'll see more young walnut regeneration once the dominant tree is removed and we get sunlight.  Worried about grape vines, wild rose and spice bush crowding out regeneration.  I hope to do some mechanical treatment here and gently mulch the brush and hopefully bury some of the walnut on the ground.  They have lots of fruit, fruit is good, I've eaten several so I hope they sprout like crazy once they get some light and pushed into the ground a bit. 

We are doing a veneer cut, most trees over 21" will be cut and any with problems.  We'll replant 10 for everyone we cut, something I encourage everyone to do, the seedlings are cheap.  Plus we'll hopefully have that regeneration.  I plan to be cutting these stands again in 10 years.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2018, 08:09:35 PM »
Are you seeing any issues with Thousand Canker Disease?  We have a quarantine in place in the Greater Richmond area and surrounding counties.  I know there is a quarantine area around Prince William County, Falls Church, Fairfax, & Manassas.  One more thing to wipe out our resources.  By the way.....nice walnut.  I have a couple of small ones in my pond that sunk.  I need to fish them out.

Wudman

I haven't seen any TCD yet.  Sure I will.  Just going to monitor for now.  Yeah this one tract makes me feel like I am in S Indiana or N Missouri  or something.  Crazy nice.  Going to take 50% of the stems and see if the younger stems release.  According to my contacts in MO they should release and grow quickly.  We'll see.  Maybe come back and do it again in 10 years.  Surprised no one on here is a walnut logger from there.
  I'm not from MO, but S/W Ohio where we cut preety good walnut at times--some really big old trees also that have been passed over yrs. ago. The farmland is rich here, a different type of soil than MO.  I've cut walnut for nearly 40 yrs. now, still cutting. We have fairly good competition for our logs--maybe your area isn't know for walnut primarily although those youv'e look great! Hows the peck, the sap, any pins on that big one--is that a "wing" there to your right or just a small seam? Hope it cuts good--don't give up on buyers, keep looking further away from your main area. By the way, are you in the greater Warrenton area? Our youngest son lives in Arlington, we are often up there visiting him. Maybe I could contact you  up there sometime?

Warrenton is our county seat, I am about 20 mins n west of there.  Arlington is nice, very popular with younger folks due to the trains, food, ..and other young people.

  We get ok pricing, for logs this nice I hope to do better, you guys in S Ohio, S Indiana, MO, S IL man you guys have some pretty walnut stands.  Great stands along the floodplains down there. 

If you could send me a PM with any big buyers I think we'll have an easy 150mbf for sale within the next 8 weeks.  Quite a lot of that is going to be veneer and the difference between a $12/bdft and the $7/bdft we can get locally is huge, basically months of salary. 

If you don't mind the question, what's the price range you guys see ?  Log exporters are our best bet here, $3/bdft for common saw logs, 5 for prime and up to 7 for veneer.  They take anything and everything down to 4' chunks and down to 8" in diameter though there is no scale at such small diameters. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2018, 08:53:13 AM »
"Replant 10 for ever 1" is a fabulous idea. I need to do that on my own land!
Where's a good place to buy seedlings?
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2018, 09:14:09 AM »
Thanks for the compliment.  Easy to buy them, the state forest services raise them, just contact them and let them know you'd like xxxx many for next year.  They'll start planting soon and if anything like VA they are sold out pretty quick, VA is sold out, MD too.  You can also a   from commercial nurseries but they maybe a bit more.  In quantity they are less than a buck each.  Also you can sprout your own, wet compost manure and 1000 walnut seeds will do the trick.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2018, 09:17:42 AM »
Cool. I'm always trying to be a good steward of my land. This seems like a nice way to give back. I don't have a lot of walnut, but had to recently harvest some HUGE ones due to excavating. Neighbor has a huge one hanging over his house that he's giving me if I take it down. Have to get my climber to get up there and do it right.

My woods has been poorly managed for the past 3-4 decades (or more). Tons of wild roses, monkey vines, thicket and crap. Resulting in poor and unhealthy trees. (also due to being on a mountain). Looking at getting someone from the Forestry extension to come in and help me get it righted.

I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline cbay

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2018, 10:16:12 AM »
A lot of people don't know but the MDC (Missouri Department of Conservation) nursery is available for out of state ordering as well.   
The 2018 seedling order form can be found here:  https://mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/downloads/SeedlingOrderForm.pdf
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2018, 10:31:23 AM »
Thanks Cbay, many states do the same.  If I could find another 2k seedlings for this year I'd be happy but I don't want to spend 4-5 bucks each. 

The other thing though is I like to use local seed sources unless I'm getting improved stock.  It might be fun to trial so of the MO or Indiana seedling vs our local and see if there is a difference. 
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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2018, 11:30:37 AM »
I'll have to look,  but I read somewhere about moving seedlings from different areas and it's recommended to only move seed sources so many degrees of latitude and longitude,  but I can't remember how many degrees it is.. I'll try to find it..
But there was some phragmitese that was planted in eastern nc that was grown from seeds from New Jersey and they go dormant many weeks earlier in the fall and green up later in the spring. They're doing fine but it's noticeable when there's hundreds or thousands of acres of brown vegetation and the same species surrounding it is still green.
And we have a landowner that planted northern red and white oaks from a mountain seed source in the piedmont and the trees are always 2-3 weeks behind in the spring compared to the "native" trees. They're doing fine,  but I notice it every year....

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2018, 01:47:04 PM »
A brief search netted a local source of ALL kinds of seedlings, including walnuts. Since I'm only going for like 25 or so, $3 or 4 ok each.

I need to get a forester in to help me figure out a control policy for all the brush and scrub down low.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2018, 06:46:22 PM »
I'll have to look,  but I read somewhere about moving seedlings from different areas and it's recommended to only move seed sources so many degrees of latitude and longitude,  but I can't remember how many degrees it is.. I'll try to find it..
But there was some phragmitese that was planted in eastern nc that was grown from seeds from New Jersey and they go dormant many weeks earlier in the fall and green up later in the spring. They're doing fine but it's noticeable when there's hundreds or thousands of acres of brown vegetation and the same species surrounding it is still green.
And we have a landowner that planted northern red and white oaks from a mountain seed source in the piedmont and the trees are always 2-3 weeks behind in the spring compared to the "native" trees. They're doing fine,  but I notice it every year....

Yep best to use localized seed unless you have a special reason not to.  But for the what the heck, I might try some of the Indiana/MO walnut saplings.   I can say that the walnut on our last job had huge growth rings, you could be looking at pine.  Still paid $.
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2018, 07:13:48 PM »
No deal on MO walnut saplings. All sold out. I got some white oak from them though.
Gonna give it a shot!  8)
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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2018, 09:15:16 PM »
Nativewolf,
What spacing are you planting walnut on? I usually plant oaks on some of our upland sites,  but I work with some landowners that have some sites that would grow good walnut. Some of our river and creek bottoms would be well suited for this,  and could give some diversity in management. I've planted oaks anywhere from a 10x10 to a 14x14. I let our poplar sites reseed naturally,  but I've never done much for walnut management.

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2018, 09:54:41 PM »
I like to plant the walnut wide, 10 10 is good.  I let the natural YP, sycamore regen keep them honest and growing straight.  Nice to get 20' clear  or so on a 15 year old walnut.  Then you can start girdling the other trees and the walnut will respond nicely and add diameter.  You just want to try to get a couple of nice clear saw logs with minimal issues.  Today we sent a load of crap to the buyer, 2/3 of trailer, 1900bdft due to small size.  Only 4 trees so lots of tops and crap.  Still got avg of $2/bdft but man it was terrible.  That's not what a well tended walnut grove yields.

Anyway, plant wide, but don't let them branch out so you'll need some way to keep growing straight up for a few years.
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Offline Autocar

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2018, 12:10:30 PM »
Sad thing about these high walnut prices is in my area there won't be a tree left for the future. I always try to think about the future but when you see eight inch walnut in sawmill yards and landing's I just shake my head . Every now and then I will talk to the buyers but like they say If I don't buy them so and so will and I am in the sawmill business. I would like to see the prices come back to normal then a lot of these company's would disappear with to much work for the reward. Don't get me wrong I like the high prices also but if you truly had saw dust in your blood you would be thinking about the next young fellow that gives logging  a try and falls head over heals for the job !

Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2018, 09:49:06 PM »
Well I guess I like the trees more than the sawdust, I really enjoy a wonderful forest.  That's why I plant.  Every contract of mine has regeneration discussions. 

That said, lots of landowners just don't care.  For them, its just..oh that's nice.  The grandkids may care but the current owners often just want $. 

I frankly love the high dollars and we have a typical cut limit of 22".  Now I take lots of 8" limbs, but the limbs may have quite a bit of taper and be 20' and started at 12-16".   My buyer credits appropriately. 

We're sending about 6-8k bdft a week this month, ok trees, 3-500 or so bdft/tree.  Place is a grapevine covered mess and lots of young leave trees (feller keeps shaking his head as we leave 18" trees).  I'll get a picture or two up tomorrow.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2018, 09:32:40 PM »
So the tract with the really nice walnut is closer to harvest and I'm a bit nervous.  We lined up a great feller, he's been cutting for over 35 years.



He had never seen such a dense stand of walnut.  Then there are the outliers not even in the stand, like this one.  You can see the machete below the tape.  That crotch is going to drive me crazy.  Cut 4' below it for a gun stocks or 6' below for tables or cut the crotch out to max the scale of the log; seems like it is still 30" at 32' clear.  Oh well.  First we have to take it down.

This week I am taking half of every day to mark and scale, super thick underbrush, wild rose, spice bush, grape vines, etc and we're doing a limit cut or 22" or greater and every tree with issues.  This means quite a bit of walking and looking to get to the walnuts and sometimes you get there and it is 21", on to the next.  Can only get 30 or so trees yesterday and today and I don't know if I'll be finished the main stand by Sunday.  Cutting should start Monday of next week.  Average tree is scaling about 400bdft, we try to get a bit more by taking limbs and all so we might end up with 450/tree.  Veneer logs are common, about 1/2 the butt logs a few 2nd logs too.  

Good news is I also found 2 40" Oaks that are nice and clear for 2 logs  so they'll be a bonus bit of $.  Not white oak unfortunately, some sort of red oak and not Northern Red Oak at that.  SRO or Black Oaks.  Still very very nice logs.  If I can't get the right price I'll hold them back and have them milled for QS materials.  
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Offline Autocar

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2018, 07:27:12 PM »
Enjoy this thread a lot,everyone talking about getting seedlings I wonder if the nurserys are checked for walnut canker ?  Right now we arn't aloud to truck walnut across the Indiana  state line do to the canker scare. I think everyone should give it some good thought before bringing seedlings from out of state. Just my two cents !  
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2018, 09:03:35 PM »
Really good point, I hope no one ships Walnut seedlings cross border.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2018, 10:44:38 PM »
Will you grow or cull that twisty coat hanger next to the biggn?
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #69 on: March 28, 2018, 08:13:55 AM »
It's a hackberry so it will likely get sacrificed to help keep the trunk from popping the ground so hard that the trunk cracks.  

These big walnut trunks have a real tendency to crack in half.  Can still sell them but you cut value by 75%.  We sacrifice a lot of poplar, hickory, maple, hackberry etc to save walnut.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #70 on: March 28, 2018, 08:48:40 AM »
On a lottery ticket like that i would probably climb and top the whole dang tree down to a single stem and rope it over onto a limb mat, just to be sure it went perfect.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #71 on: March 28, 2018, 06:24:22 PM »
It is a beauty.  We might put a crane there and top it and rope it down with the crane.  But, we've got many like that and the crane makes quite the rut.  This site is wet.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #72 on: April 23, 2018, 09:45:12 PM »
So, finally got to cutting, weather has not been our friend as this is a rocky wet site, have to be very careful.


That's the first full day and half of big game kill on the ground, ready for bidders next Monday.

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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #73 on: April 23, 2018, 09:47:43 PM »
 

Just how nice are those trophy trees, when the walnut looks like decent yellow poplar...it is pretty darn nice walnut!

Some of these walnut are 18" in diameter 50' up the trunk to the first crotch.  That's a nice one for sure but not unique.  Some have crotch's 11 or 13 ' up the trunk.  What slabbing trees.  I mean they would be amazing table tops.  
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #74 on: April 23, 2018, 09:50:39 PM »
 

Just posting how nice the forest looks, almost pure walnut in this section.  

The goal is to get 50 or so on the ground and then do sealed bids, while we cut the next batch.  Up to about 30 after 2 days.  By Friday we'll be there, 2 days off due to rain tomorrow.  
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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #75 on: April 23, 2018, 09:56:42 PM »
So may wonder about leaving in log form vs bucking.  We hope by leaving in long tree form we'll get more as the buyer can mark their own cuts.
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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #76 on: April 23, 2018, 10:03:48 PM »
In most cases we always do that--many buyers actually will prefer that they are left like that. We've even taken them in  on a non-bid ,haul to the mill basis in tree length first cut up to 25 ft. long. Your walnut looks great! Hows the sap and growth rings, good color?
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #77 on: April 23, 2018, 10:14:21 PM »
Just cut so give them a few days to color up, VA walnut has a decent color.  Sap rings are not too large.  Bird peek in a tree or two but not bad.  The fusiform cancers are the biggest issues, some are really nice and then a canker 20' up a perfect bole.  Makes you want to cry.  Hope to get to 100mbf on this auction.

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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2018, 09:03:17 PM »
Some grim news today.  Friday the Chinese govt started enforcing a ban on logs with bark unless fumigated.  Before it was not enforced.  Thousands of containers at sea full of logs.  Really throws a wrench into walnut sales for me.  

Vietnam & Germany should remain good markets at least.  We'll see what happens.

I should mention that we just started a week inspection for a sealed bid that ends this Friday, that notice was sent out Friday and today 3 hot buyers called to give regrets that they are not allowed to buy until they figure out what to do.  Huge amount of money at stake for me, thought I was going to leave the day job.   :(
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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2018, 03:20:51 PM »
Please keep us posted on any devopments with the exportation problems. We had just finished a sale and were going to wait til the late summer to cut more. Good luck with everything.

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2018, 08:35:45 AM »
X2

I don't think the fumigation requirement will really slow things down long term.  But temporary turmoil is sure possible.  The timing sure sucks for you.   :(  
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2018, 09:17:40 AM »
Yeah, it will be sorted out quickly ie in the next couple of months.  Frankly the Chinese have no other sources for this material so they are buying.  This is why China imposed tarrifs on Ag commodities...they can buy wheat and corn elsewhere.  Good walnut and oak is a US game right now.  Europe a net importer for the last 100 years, Siberia (east siberia that is like Michigan/ Ontario ) was raped in the last 25 years; Japan..raped itself; Korea, Japan raped it and Korean war burned off the rest.  No good sources of temperate hardwoods outside the US.  

Short term it disrupts my cash flow.  Veneer buyers so far have been very very bullish only problem is there have only been 3 instead of 6 and only 2 more coming.  

The biggest hit is going to be the small sawlog stuff I was getting $1.5 or more for small sawlogs and now we'll get $.90 or so.  That doesn't leave much if anything after timber costs and harvest costs.  
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2018, 06:21:30 PM »
Ok, well first auction done.  Results were not great as hoped.  Butt logs averaged $4/bdft, frankly I think if China had not done this sudden enforcement we'd have been closer to $5 or $6.  I canceled the sale of the tops, I'll hold them for a month and wait for the Chinese ports to sort out.  About 5.4MBF of seconds and thirds from 8.5MBF of butt logs.  Anyhow, thought people might be interested.  The next set of logs is cut and I'm not sure if we'll cut more this May or wait til September.  A lot is going to depend upon what we hear.  The winning bidder was from Ohio, FYI.  11 teams had registered to bid and I was turning people away.  After the announcement we ended up with 4 bids.  So, some of the froth went out.

This auction was for about 1/4 of the total forest walnut stems.  
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2018, 09:55:44 PM »
Why turning people away?
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2018, 08:17:39 AM »
Well I have to be there when they scale, it takes them 2-3 hours depending on what they were bidding for (butts or everything).  They are often late..so say 4 hours for each one.  That's 40 hours of sitting on my bottom.  No cell, can't call new clients, etc.  Thought 10 diverse buyers was plenty to get pricing right.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: My walnut thread
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2018, 08:55:07 AM »
Gotcha.
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