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Author Topic: Steep cable logging question  (Read 4028 times)

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Offline mike_belben

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Steep cable logging question
« on: December 29, 2017, 01:50:11 PM »
Im considering setting my dozer up for retrieving prime hardwood from over the steeper hollars where it has been passed over in prior cuts.  Deep draws always have the biggest oaks here and im around a lot of them.

I guess my question is how much height does it take to notice a difference?  Lets say a dozer parked as close as possible to the edge with a standard low mount winch, vs that same location but with the cable being looped up over a pulley say 12ft high. 

A fair comparison would be a winch on the stick of a shovel with the bucket anchored on edge.  I see videos of excavators turned into mini yoders this way but theyre all running dual drum for a skyline and a carriage. Ive not seen one with a single cable pulling from up on the boom.  Is getting that fairlead up 10-15 feet pointless or will it help?

If itll help, how much.  10% ... 50%  ?  Is it worth the effort?

Leafy clay slopes, not too craggy.  Generally not too much exposed ledge to get the butts hung up on, just too steep to drive over. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline dgdrls

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 02:31:15 PM »
Hi M.B.

IMO the benefit will be to have the cable pull the log at a steeper angle
than the slope your pulling up, if that makes sense.
 You'll want the hitch end of the log up off the ground as it gets yarded up the slope.
The more its off the ground the less friction you'll have to pull against. 

Seems its landing and slope specific.

D





Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 02:43:45 PM »
 

 

I settled on building this mainly to be able to get logs across a creek easier.   

 

To have pulled that log with a winch down low, it would have hung on the bank.  I have thought about using a crane boom point that I have to do just what you are talking about.

 

Lots of ideas... Banjo
Cooks AC 36--Prentice 210C--Morgan edger--Kubota M7040 with loader--Case 580 K with extendahoe--Case 850C dozer--Int 1700 series twin cylinder dump/log/flatbed truck--logging arch--2 Logrite mill sp.--Cat claw sharpening system--And a bulldog to make sure it all stays here.

Offline BradMarks

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 03:13:04 PM »
A pulley 12' off the ground might be good enough, 15' could be better, Depends on line distance and load.  Rig pulley behind you so log can be brought on landing instead of just to the edge. I know, but needed to be said! I have easily pulled loads with a chainsaw winch equipped w/ 3/16" aircraft cable or 1/8"?? (anyway, rated 2000 lbs) of 1000lbs or more. Piece of cake with a pulley system.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 03:19:58 PM »
It depends on the area and amount of trees you have to do.
The logging arch was often used for backing up to small ravines, so you did not need to get the dozer too close to the edge of the drop. (Modern radio comms or a remote camera on the arch to lookover the edge etc should make it better than when the dozer operator could not see over the edge when on the machine and could not see what is happening when the log was being pulled up the slope)
5_-_Picture_080.jpg" rel="nofollow" onClick="recordOutboundLink(this, 'Outbound Links', 'http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/File:Caterpillar_with_logging_arch_at_GDSF_0 5_-_Picture_080.jpg'); return false;" class="bbc_link new_win" target="_blank">http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/File:Caterpillar_with_logging_arch_at_GDSF_0 5_-_Picture_080.jpg

The willamettes etc used to be double drum dozers. https://www.shapeways.com/product/RQDNL4MWM/logging-sixty-crawler-tractor-double-drum-winch

Tong tosser/ track loaders can throw a good distance with power out on the winch.





Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 04:19:44 PM »
ahhhhhhhhhhh... not that easy. As you lift the cable away from the ground you also change the angles of leverage etc etc. If your fairlead is directly above the winch it cancels but if its offset horizontally at all you are creating a fulcrum point.

I've done a fair bit of REAL steep country logging. IMHO the best way (lacking a helicopter) is just have a whole whack of blocks on your line so you can go tree to tree for steering, and more dozer then you think you need. And a helper to engage/disengage the winch or follow the log up unhooking blocks as required. You need lots of dozer because the time cost of working that type of country gets real high if you cant pull them pretty quick, and that means enough winch power and weight to either pull the log or snap the log... no time to waste arguing with every mound of dirt and tree root on its way.

It really only pays for veneer and high value primary species. When those old guys left those logs behind they did it because they were either unprofitable to retrieve or quite marginal. Running costs were cheaper then. You really got to watch the clock doing this stuff because you end up with logs worth a thousand a pop real quick that cost you $1100 to put on the ramp.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 06:11:25 PM »
Dozer is paid for and its just me so slow going only costs diesel fuel.  Its a lot less labor on my body to fell one fat oak and wait for the winch to pull it up the hill.. Vs breaking my butt in pulp.  I dont care if its pulp on the edge of a parking lot, that stuff breaks me and pays squat.  Im trying to be set up for when my son is old enough to help for a few years before i give him the boot.


Anyone ever seen a log arch winched down over a hill? 
Revelation 3:20

Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 06:46:26 PM »
Mike i thought about converting a cable skidder to a mini yarder at one time. a two winch system would save alot of work for the one man band. my idea was to mount a hydro winch just to hold the high line, use the regular winch to ull back a weighted carriage. i figured a 12-16' folding boom. of course a couple guy lines would be needed. the way they have cracked down on smz and long buffers here, it wouldnt be feasible for me now. any thing at all steep here is an smz......that timber will die and fall over now, we cant cut it.

Online Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 07:42:57 PM »
What lengths of logs are they going to be Mike? I get your dozer is paid off but it's still not set up for this job one way we've done steep ground is to yo to or tether our forwarder up and down the hill side with our D7.

The tong tossing is about 300 to 500 ft of redneck fly fishing it's interesting to watch the guys do it but I personally wouldn't want to be the guy on the ground setting chokers something about a line flying at me doesn't sound nice.

Offline quilbilly

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2017, 12:20:26 AM »
Skeans I don't think they're looking for a set up like we have out west here with tong tossers, Yoder's, or a decent size yarder, I could be wrong though. I think his best bet though is to  look for a little trailer mounted tower or a skidder already set up with a tower. If you keep your eyes peeled you can usually find a complete set up that just needs a little work for under 50k.
 
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Online Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2017, 12:51:21 AM »
There tongers east of Denver, a guy that has come we eat with CTL stuff  has said so I'll take his word  for south Dakota.

Online Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2017, 12:59:58 AM »
Skeans I don't think they're looking for a set up like we have out west here with tong tossers, Yoder's, or a decent size yarder, I could be wrong though. I think his best bet though is to  look for a little trailer mounted tower or a skidder already set up with a tower. If you keep your eyes peeled you can usually find a complete set up that just needs a little work for under 50k.
Heres this with company work there's no more guys setting chokers coming 2018, most guys can find a setup for a cheap price but can they afford the cable or the crew who can hint why why a setter is dead besides companies. A couple local companies are hanging 1500' no guy on a radio with all camera or GPS pin  a setter is dead so is a tower. A guy I know has a tethering setup he pulls everything up or down the hill no more towers.

Offline Spartan

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2017, 01:31:27 AM »
Mike i thought about converting a cable skidder to a mini yarder at one time. a two winch system would save alot of work for the one man band. my idea was to mount a hydro winch just to hold the high line, use the regular winch to ull back a weighted carriage. i figured a 12-16' folding boom. of course a couple guy lines would be needed. the way they have cracked down on smz and long buffers here, it wouldnt be feasible for me now. any thing at all steep here is an smz......that timber will die and fall over now, we cant cut it.

have you ever seen those Ecologger Yarders?

To the OP, how far down the hill are you going with the cable?
I assume your not allowed to put a trail through the middle of it, or to the bottom and skid down?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2017, 01:40:11 AM »
There are plenty... Probably a hundred other threads, to talk about $50- 500k machines.  Can we not make this another one of them please?  The poor guys with stick welders and drill presses need somewhere to conjugate.  I cant see the point in spending upfront more than i stand to make at it, i wanna retire some day, not work for a bank til i die.  We have ravines maybe 200ft max elevation change.  Its just not west coast logging.  Not enough hill to make it worth setting up a skyline and carriage. We dont even have that equipment out here to be honest.   With a mast on the blade i just drive up to edge, set it down and pull cable a few times then move again. 

Im not buying any more iron.  The dozer is what i got.   So if i can modify it to do more jobs or do them faster i will be moving forward without spending backward.  This is the machine.  It has new finals, sprockets, rails and rolls so i plan to keep it a long time.




In good conditions on pretty flat ground i can pull 1 or 2 full length prime oaks, chained off the blade in reverse.




 Steepest hill i ever pulled a big (by east coast standards) log up was this next photo sequence but it was a major challenge due to stumps right where i needed to be and a hard offcamber that kept pulling me over into it and the timber not wanting to budge.

This hill drops off just after the stump pictured in center.  That middle log butt is 5 or 6 feet off the ground at that end. 




That straight white oak to the right is the tree im talking about and id say the cut was another 5-7 feet below the brushline shown here



This pic should be my helmet and 395 leaning against it.  Landed maybe 5 more feet down off the stump, id say 50' from how close i could get the blade. I had 3  chains together initially if i remember right



It took forever to get up the hill and snapped a 3/8 chain cresting the ridge because the whole log had to pivot over the top.  Cut one heck of a furrow before it finally teetered up.  way to much work and abuse on the machine for what it produced.  However i do believe if i had a line over a high pulley she woulda eased right up to the landing.  Ive seen many hollar bottom oaks 3ft on the stump and tall as can be.  Almost as high as the canopy lid on top of the ridge.  Ravine trees also seem to be gunbarrel straight with hardly a limb or fork.  They have to compete for sunlight with the trees ontop the hill on both sides


So this is what ive got in mind, and i have all the parts.  The winch is from a 1990s 5ton military 6x6 and it has freespool, can also route the 5/8 cable out nearly anywhere from the drum.  I believe its considered a 20 ton.  It can power in and out, but the hydraulic motor is huge.  It totally prevents mounting in back and would also have to come off to troubleshoot nearly any drive issue.  The winch would be forever in my way.  Not to mention i have a fused vertebrae in my neck and turn like frankenstein, so i prefer driving out in reverse with the hitch on my 6 way blade.  It lets me roll logs around obstacles with great precision.  I never snag a stump and i can avoid rubbing keep trees because of the blade.  Without moving at all, i can sweep an entire stem over 5 feet if its all chained up right by just angling the blade.



So the cab on my machine is nearly as stout as the chassis and even with winch on roof itll still be under 13'6 on my trailer.  I can pull from front or back, and with a pin on pulley also from down low in back as well as over the top of my brush bar to bring logs to the blade all nice and even.  In my mind this machine will eventually be bunching logs trailside for a forestry trailer to come round up so that would be nice.  I think my crawler loader will be what drags that around since its more suited to a bit of a road and on skinny triple grousers its not gonna do well in the woods like how the dozer does.  Backhoe is removeable.




The mast idea only makes sense for substantial ridgeline work, its not something id keep on most of the time.  The high pulley would probably be a space saver car rim for a kind cable radius, and it'd go atop an A frame that tabs onto my root rake mounts. It'd be raised up or down by an ATV winch with a remote fob so i can unpin and swing down the drop leg brace and set the feet with ease.  I can tilt and angle the blade as necessary to position things nicely.  Firewood cookies will make decent foot pads. 

While drawing it i realized that i could make that dropleg brace also swing out 180 and pin straight exactly like a ladder.  I clear near a lot of dwellings and typically have to gaff up a tree to set a line if its leaning the wrong way.  With "rungs" welded up this 75hp tracked 30 foot ladder id be able to drive it up against a tree, climb up, and set a bull rope in minutes without lugging all the extra gear  Or use as a light duty pusher, have done so many times with my forklift.

The other bonus, it would make an ideal rigging to put up the second story timber frame of the house i promised to build the wife.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Spartan

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2017, 01:53:20 AM »
200ft, thats not far at all.  We have logged all kinds of roadside where we just back the skidders up to the edge and pull 200ft of cable down and skid them up.  Standard winch arch and 5/8 cable, nothing fancy.
The trick is in the leave of the trees and the hook so they don't get stuck behind a stump. you'll get in shape too :D

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2017, 02:00:52 AM »
How many good sized trees are you able to pull up at once?  Im just figuring winch up high is gonna work better than winch down low over hillsides regardless.  If it means pulling up doubles instead of singles or having less grief from big single logs, id be pleased enough.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2017, 02:22:45 AM »
Not a pretty video by today's standards - ravine with old D7 and arch. I suppose snapping the logs off saves a bit of chainsaw fuel.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2017, 09:16:02 AM »
That was reassuring.  If they can justify it for pine, i can justify it for stave white oak.
Revelation 3:20

Offline luvmexfood

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2017, 09:56:55 AM »
Nice drawing.
Give me a new saw chain and I can find you a rock in a heartbeat.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2017, 10:17:06 AM »
Thanks.

Sadly it was by memory.  Thats how married ive been to maintaining that stupid machine this year.  Ive scraped oil-mulch out of every nook on it looking for a leak.
Revelation 3:20


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