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Author Topic: Steep cable logging question  (Read 3545 times)

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Offline mike_belben

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Steep cable logging question
« on: December 29, 2017, 01:50:11 PM »
Im considering setting my dozer up for retrieving prime hardwood from over the steeper hollars where it has been passed over in prior cuts.  Deep draws always have the biggest oaks here and im around a lot of them.

I guess my question is how much height does it take to notice a difference?  Lets say a dozer parked as close as possible to the edge with a standard low mount winch, vs that same location but with the cable being looped up over a pulley say 12ft high. 

A fair comparison would be a winch on the stick of a shovel with the bucket anchored on edge.  I see videos of excavators turned into mini yoders this way but theyre all running dual drum for a skyline and a carriage. Ive not seen one with a single cable pulling from up on the boom.  Is getting that fairlead up 10-15 feet pointless or will it help?

If itll help, how much.  10% ... 50%  ?  Is it worth the effort?

Leafy clay slopes, not too craggy.  Generally not too much exposed ledge to get the butts hung up on, just too steep to drive over. 
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Offline dgdrls

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 02:31:15 PM »
Hi M.B.

IMO the benefit will be to have the cable pull the log at a steeper angle
than the slope your pulling up, if that makes sense.
 You'll want the hitch end of the log up off the ground as it gets yarded up the slope.
The more its off the ground the less friction you'll have to pull against. 

Seems its landing and slope specific.

D





Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 02:43:45 PM »
 

 

I settled on building this mainly to be able to get logs across a creek easier.   

 

To have pulled that log with a winch down low, it would have hung on the bank.  I have thought about using a crane boom point that I have to do just what you are talking about.

 

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Offline BradMarks

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 03:13:04 PM »
A pulley 12' off the ground might be good enough, 15' could be better, Depends on line distance and load.  Rig pulley behind you so log can be brought on landing instead of just to the edge. I know, but needed to be said! I have easily pulled loads with a chainsaw winch equipped w/ 3/16" aircraft cable or 1/8"?? (anyway, rated 2000 lbs) of 1000lbs or more. Piece of cake with a pulley system.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 03:19:58 PM »
It depends on the area and amount of trees you have to do.
The logging arch was often used for backing up to small ravines, so you did not need to get the dozer too close to the edge of the drop. (Modern radio comms or a remote camera on the arch to lookover the edge etc should make it better than when the dozer operator could not see over the edge when on the machine and could not see what is happening when the log was being pulled up the slope)
5_-_Picture_080.jpg" rel="nofollow" class="bbc_link new_win" target="_blank">http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/File:Caterpillar_with_logging_arch_at_GDSF_0 5_-_Picture_080.jpg

The willamettes etc used to be double drum dozers. https://www.shapeways.com/product/RQDNL4MWM/logging-sixty-crawler-tractor-double-drum-winch

Tong tosser/ track loaders can throw a good distance with power out on the winch.





Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 04:19:44 PM »
ahhhhhhhhhhh... not that easy. As you lift the cable away from the ground you also change the angles of leverage etc etc. If your fairlead is directly above the winch it cancels but if its offset horizontally at all you are creating a fulcrum point.

I've done a fair bit of REAL steep country logging. IMHO the best way (lacking a helicopter) is just have a whole whack of blocks on your line so you can go tree to tree for steering, and more dozer then you think you need. And a helper to engage/disengage the winch or follow the log up unhooking blocks as required. You need lots of dozer because the time cost of working that type of country gets real high if you cant pull them pretty quick, and that means enough winch power and weight to either pull the log or snap the log... no time to waste arguing with every mound of dirt and tree root on its way.

It really only pays for veneer and high value primary species. When those old guys left those logs behind they did it because they were either unprofitable to retrieve or quite marginal. Running costs were cheaper then. You really got to watch the clock doing this stuff because you end up with logs worth a thousand a pop real quick that cost you $1100 to put on the ramp.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 06:11:25 PM »
Dozer is paid for and its just me so slow going only costs diesel fuel.  Its a lot less labor on my body to fell one fat oak and wait for the winch to pull it up the hill.. Vs breaking my butt in pulp.  I dont care if its pulp on the edge of a parking lot, that stuff breaks me and pays squat.  Im trying to be set up for when my son is old enough to help for a few years before i give him the boot.


Anyone ever seen a log arch winched down over a hill? 
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Offline treeslayer2003

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 06:46:26 PM »
Mike i thought about converting a cable skidder to a mini yarder at one time. a two winch system would save alot of work for the one man band. my idea was to mount a hydro winch just to hold the high line, use the regular winch to ull back a weighted carriage. i figured a 12-16' folding boom. of course a couple guy lines would be needed. the way they have cracked down on smz and long buffers here, it wouldnt be feasible for me now. any thing at all steep here is an smz......that timber will die and fall over now, we cant cut it.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 07:42:57 PM »
What lengths of logs are they going to be Mike? I get your dozer is paid off but it's still not set up for this job one way we've done steep ground is to yo to or tether our forwarder up and down the hill side with our D7.

The tong tossing is about 300 to 500 ft of redneck fly fishing it's interesting to watch the guys do it but I personally wouldn't want to be the guy on the ground setting chokers something about a line flying at me doesn't sound nice.

Offline quilbilly

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2017, 12:20:26 AM »
Skeans I don't think they're looking for a set up like we have out west here with tong tossers, Yoder's, or a decent size yarder, I could be wrong though. I think his best bet though is to  look for a little trailer mounted tower or a skidder already set up with a tower. If you keep your eyes peeled you can usually find a complete set up that just needs a little work for under 50k.
 
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2017, 12:51:21 AM »
There tongers east of Denver, a guy that has come we eat with CTL stuff  has said so I'll take his word  for south Dakota.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2017, 12:59:58 AM »
Skeans I don't think they're looking for a set up like we have out west here with tong tossers, Yoder's, or a decent size yarder, I could be wrong though. I think his best bet though is to  look for a little trailer mounted tower or a skidder already set up with a tower. If you keep your eyes peeled you can usually find a complete set up that just needs a little work for under 50k.
Heres this with company work there's no more guys setting chokers coming 2018, most guys can find a setup for a cheap price but can they afford the cable or the crew who can hint why why a setter is dead besides companies. A couple local companies are hanging 1500' no guy on a radio with all camera or GPS pin  a setter is dead so is a tower. A guy I know has a tethering setup he pulls everything up or down the hill no more towers.

Offline Spartan

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2017, 01:31:27 AM »
Mike i thought about converting a cable skidder to a mini yarder at one time. a two winch system would save alot of work for the one man band. my idea was to mount a hydro winch just to hold the high line, use the regular winch to ull back a weighted carriage. i figured a 12-16' folding boom. of course a couple guy lines would be needed. the way they have cracked down on smz and long buffers here, it wouldnt be feasible for me now. any thing at all steep here is an smz......that timber will die and fall over now, we cant cut it.

have you ever seen those Ecologger Yarders?

To the OP, how far down the hill are you going with the cable?
I assume your not allowed to put a trail through the middle of it, or to the bottom and skid down?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2017, 01:40:11 AM »
There are plenty... Probably a hundred other threads, to talk about $50- 500k machines.  Can we not make this another one of them please?  The poor guys with stick welders and drill presses need somewhere to conjugate.  I cant see the point in spending upfront more than i stand to make at it, i wanna retire some day, not work for a bank til i die.  We have ravines maybe 200ft max elevation change.  Its just not west coast logging.  Not enough hill to make it worth setting up a skyline and carriage. We dont even have that equipment out here to be honest.   With a mast on the blade i just drive up to edge, set it down and pull cable a few times then move again. 

Im not buying any more iron.  The dozer is what i got.   So if i can modify it to do more jobs or do them faster i will be moving forward without spending backward.  This is the machine.  It has new finals, sprockets, rails and rolls so i plan to keep it a long time.




In good conditions on pretty flat ground i can pull 1 or 2 full length prime oaks, chained off the blade in reverse.




 Steepest hill i ever pulled a big (by east coast standards) log up was this next photo sequence but it was a major challenge due to stumps right where i needed to be and a hard offcamber that kept pulling me over into it and the timber not wanting to budge.

This hill drops off just after the stump pictured in center.  That middle log butt is 5 or 6 feet off the ground at that end. 




That straight white oak to the right is the tree im talking about and id say the cut was another 5-7 feet below the brushline shown here



This pic should be my helmet and 395 leaning against it.  Landed maybe 5 more feet down off the stump, id say 50' from how close i could get the blade. I had 3  chains together initially if i remember right



It took forever to get up the hill and snapped a 3/8 chain cresting the ridge because the whole log had to pivot over the top.  Cut one heck of a furrow before it finally teetered up.  way to much work and abuse on the machine for what it produced.  However i do believe if i had a line over a high pulley she woulda eased right up to the landing.  Ive seen many hollar bottom oaks 3ft on the stump and tall as can be.  Almost as high as the canopy lid on top of the ridge.  Ravine trees also seem to be gunbarrel straight with hardly a limb or fork.  They have to compete for sunlight with the trees ontop the hill on both sides


So this is what ive got in mind, and i have all the parts.  The winch is from a 1990s 5ton military 6x6 and it has freespool, can also route the 5/8 cable out nearly anywhere from the drum.  I believe its considered a 20 ton.  It can power in and out, but the hydraulic motor is huge.  It totally prevents mounting in back and would also have to come off to troubleshoot nearly any drive issue.  The winch would be forever in my way.  Not to mention i have a fused vertebrae in my neck and turn like frankenstein, so i prefer driving out in reverse with the hitch on my 6 way blade.  It lets me roll logs around obstacles with great precision.  I never snag a stump and i can avoid rubbing keep trees because of the blade.  Without moving at all, i can sweep an entire stem over 5 feet if its all chained up right by just angling the blade.



So the cab on my machine is nearly as stout as the chassis and even with winch on roof itll still be under 13'6 on my trailer.  I can pull from front or back, and with a pin on pulley also from down low in back as well as over the top of my brush bar to bring logs to the blade all nice and even.  In my mind this machine will eventually be bunching logs trailside for a forestry trailer to come round up so that would be nice.  I think my crawler loader will be what drags that around since its more suited to a bit of a road and on skinny triple grousers its not gonna do well in the woods like how the dozer does.  Backhoe is removeable.




The mast idea only makes sense for substantial ridgeline work, its not something id keep on most of the time.  The high pulley would probably be a space saver car rim for a kind cable radius, and it'd go atop an A frame that tabs onto my root rake mounts. It'd be raised up or down by an ATV winch with a remote fob so i can unpin and swing down the drop leg brace and set the feet with ease.  I can tilt and angle the blade as necessary to position things nicely.  Firewood cookies will make decent foot pads. 

While drawing it i realized that i could make that dropleg brace also swing out 180 and pin straight exactly like a ladder.  I clear near a lot of dwellings and typically have to gaff up a tree to set a line if its leaning the wrong way.  With "rungs" welded up this 75hp tracked 30 foot ladder id be able to drive it up against a tree, climb up, and set a bull rope in minutes without lugging all the extra gear  Or use as a light duty pusher, have done so many times with my forklift.

The other bonus, it would make an ideal rigging to put up the second story timber frame of the house i promised to build the wife.
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Offline Spartan

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2017, 01:53:20 AM »
200ft, thats not far at all.  We have logged all kinds of roadside where we just back the skidders up to the edge and pull 200ft of cable down and skid them up.  Standard winch arch and 5/8 cable, nothing fancy.
The trick is in the leave of the trees and the hook so they don't get stuck behind a stump. you'll get in shape too :D

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2017, 02:00:52 AM »
How many good sized trees are you able to pull up at once?  Im just figuring winch up high is gonna work better than winch down low over hillsides regardless.  If it means pulling up doubles instead of singles or having less grief from big single logs, id be pleased enough.
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Offline Riwaka

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2017, 02:22:45 AM »
Not a pretty video by today's standards - ravine with old D7 and arch. I suppose snapping the logs off saves a bit of chainsaw fuel.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2017, 09:16:02 AM »
That was reassuring.  If they can justify it for pine, i can justify it for stave white oak.
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Offline luvmexfood

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2017, 09:56:55 AM »
Nice drawing.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2017, 10:17:06 AM »
Thanks.

Sadly it was by memory.  Thats how married ive been to maintaining that stupid machine this year.  Ive scraped oil-mulch out of every nook on it looking for a leak.
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Offline Puffergas

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2017, 01:36:54 PM »
I like the log cart and mount the hydraulic winch on the cart. You might be able to hitch the cart to the front blade. Nice dozers!
Jeff
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Offline Corley5

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2017, 02:17:45 PM »
  There was an ol' boy here in this country that raised the fairlead/arch on a C5 Tree Farmer and loaded the winch with cable.  He'd back it up to the top of the ridge and anchor it to his AC HD6.  His crew would pull the cable down to the logs, winch them up, unhook the chokers from the mainline and rehook them into the cable on a 132 Franklin for skidding to the landing.  He didn't use it all the time or even on a regular basis but he had it when he had a job that it was useful for.  We do have some rugged ground up here.
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Offline Spartan

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2017, 02:43:31 PM »
How much can you pull up at a time?  That's a completely relative question based on your equipment.
We use 10 -12 ton machines with a gearmatic 119s.  With 5/8 cable we could pull the machine over the edge or go til the cable snaps.  Neither do I recommend.  West coast perspective we could pull up 2 28"-30" dbh fir at about 80 ft tall each drag if not too limb locked or behind to many stumps.  Thats a pretty heavy haul but can be done at the right angle.  and those are pretty heavy trees in general.  The "Big Dogs" one at a time or bucked to log length.  But those are 2-2.5 ton single logs limbed, and come out pretty easy.

Offline Banjo picker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2017, 03:13:51 PM »
Cool video.  Banjo
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2017, 11:38:59 PM »
How much can you pull up at a time?  That's a completely relative question based on your equipment.


I dont know yet.  I was eventually able to do this with a 1400lb garden tractor and 2000lb atv winch.  I think an 18k dozer and 20 ton winch should do what im asking well enough.








Big lesson was the higher you set the pulley the easier the log came in but the easier the machine wheelies so the pulley had to go forward as it went up.  Traction was never a problem but front ballast was so i built a grapple to also carry a short log while skidding.


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Offline starmac

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2017, 12:03:31 AM »
We have a couple of pretty good sized equipment auctions here every summer. This summer a cummins powered 667 clark cable rig that ran well and was clean and straight went for 3500 bucks. I was not interested init, so didn't go further into checking it out, but something like that with some life left would be a money maker for some of you guys.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2017, 12:09:54 AM »
They bring 7-12k here.  Love to have but its not in my cards for the foreseeable future.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2017, 05:45:24 AM »
Mike, that was the cheapest I have seen one here, but there is not a very good market for logging gear here either, nor does many want a line machine. If it would have had a grapple on it, I would have checked it out a little better. If I had of known it wasn't going to bring any more than that I would have checked it out anyway, and built a fire fighting rig out of it if nothing else. Ofcoarse, if I would have bid on it, it would broke records on the selling price. lol
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2017, 06:56:01 AM »
mike,DanG.you got some nice land there. Some hills but even ones.  ;D  No rocks!! That little tractor would get a work out in Chesterville.  :D I have little knolls,big knolls,wet hole,big rocks.It's a challenge to get a road through it all at time. I have main roads,but branch off from them and have to figure out the best way to get around everything.
I just put one in and that took some rock hauling to fill in the wet hole and fill in between the rocks that was sticking up about 6 inches. I thought it was done,but one place I don't like after I came across a few times,4-5 buckets of rocks will make me happy.
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Offline ehp

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2017, 08:16:59 AM »
that's pretty much the ground I have been cutting all winter and big oak , you guys will laugh but I cut 10 big oak a day and do quite well at that . Pretty much the first 30 feet of tree is high grade . Its tough but once you learn how to get those big trees up the grade it starts getting abit easier

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2017, 09:16:57 AM »
Those videos were where i built the tractor in massachusetts years ago.  The land was a patch of woods the city owned and forgot about, i kept it clean so people always had room to dump.more trash.

During wet winter, the little tractor is crippled here in tennessee clay where everything is off camber.  If you manage to get started you eventually slide off sideways and get pinned into something then cant get anywhere.
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2017, 05:08:25 PM »
Please dont mount the winch on top of the dozer or you will die.

Well maybe not die, but you will be devoting more of your time to putting it track side down then you planned on. 31's are funny critters on that little fixed track frame. They hold and hold with your ass like a limpet on the seat but with no diagonals and equaliser bar to level them they just kinda lean over at angles that make you wonder how its still on its feet. Quite stable but when the go they fall hard and fast and theres no moment of warning where you might have saved it digging the blade tip in quick.
 

   and you'll be able to find that oil leak with some daylight in there for sure.

Mount the winch in the traditional manner. It'll help keep your Center of Gravity low. It will actually improve your balance front to back on that machine.
Build yourself an arch like Riwakas post had. That is exactly the way we did similar country around here. It works and its as safe as anything hill logging can be.
(the reason they snapped them off with the winch in vid was because you dont want to be in there sawing with cables hooked up, and you dont want them falling with cables not hooked up lest they slide down the hill and be lost BTW)

You arent chasing skyline volumes. Instead of thinking double drum if you've got a few logs to come up in one place all you need is a pulley mounted below your face, a coil of rope, and one of those man portable capstan winches with the little gas motor. " spectra is all you need for a messenger line and its a whole lot easier to live with then wire.
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Offline Puffergas

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2017, 07:39:23 PM »
Mike_belben, sounds like a hydro. I was surprised how well your brakes held when winching in the log nice JD 140 ! !



Yes, I corrected the rear tire direction.
Jeff
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2018, 11:18:48 PM »
I was thinking i recognized your sig from somewhere.  Ive seen your gasifier machine around.. Maybe youtube or MTF.  Pretty neat.  Did quite a bit of reading on gasification but got sidetracked from ever trying it.  Have done lots of veggie power, veggie heat, stoves and so forth.

Ive just finally gotten to watch all the videos, the dude in the linkbelt lasso-ing that tong was incredible.   Thanks to all who posted, lot to think about.




So heres the best winch i have, and the obvious reason why rear mount will be very difficult.  That hyd motor would push the winch so far back.  And then id be jamming limbs and slash up in between, snap the motor mount or fittings etc.  Im just not willing to deal with that thing blocking me every time i have to adjust brakes or get at batteries.   I do have another much smaller hyd winch with easier mounting that may work out for rear mount, but no freespool.  I also came up with a little better front pulley boom that could pretty much stay on and not take any setup, just put the blade down and feed out some line.  It wouldnt be quite as tall however. 

Im not really that convinced a winch on the roof will cause too much trouble with stability.  My forklift is narrower and sinks easier yet ive operated it on the same ground with about 10k on the forks at 8 to 10ft high and not flopped it yet.  Im ontop a big plateau.  30 miles in any direction and youre in steep steep country but up here ontop its mostly rolling terrain with furrows cut by ions of drainage off the plateau.  Stay out of the furrow/ravine/gulch/bluff/hollar/whathaveyou and its not too bad.   

I do own this 4pt pin on backhoe that looks like it would go right onto the case 450 loader which came with a factory extendahoe as pictured previously.  The factory hoe with bucket works fine and removes very easy.  I dont intend to do anything except adding a manual thumb to that unit.



This massey hoe however is kinda up for whatever surgery suits my needs, i dont have a bucket for it anyhow.  The loader is still in mass and the hoe is here in tennessee so ive not ever gotten to line them up, but if the mounts can work ive intended to set it up as a stumping attachment to go onback the 450.  Thats the job i get asked to do more than any other, and always have to turn down, D31 is too small for stumping.  But a root shear to snip and loosen around the stump and then the loader bucket or grapple fork to curl em out would be pretty efficient and keep hours off the undercarriage.  The proportion of the drawing didnt come out right but you get the picture.   




Meanwhile, im watching yoder vids and seeing that the swing function is pretty handy to get the log piled off to the side out of your way once it crests the landing.  Figured maybe something like this could work well.



 The tractor is obviously just a self propelled power unit for the yoderhoe.  Grapple not really necessary, a foot plate would be fine so that the stick serves as a stabilizer leg to resist tipping.  Wouldnt be hard to anchor the bucket to a stump either.   If the hydraulics werent strong enough to keep the mast up a chain could be clevised from the winch end to the cab roof.  Whether dual drum with a carriage or single, i dunno.  Didnt cost anything to draw it in there. 

The winch post would be an easy bolt/pin on to the massey stick's pivot gusset plates.  A sling from the forklift or bobcat would make putting winch on or off pretty straight forward. 
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Offline 47sawdust

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2018, 06:45:36 AM »
I think I would follow LongtimeLurker's advice and use an arch behind the dozer with the winch mounted in the traditional way.
 Here in Vermont that set-up was used a lot and arches still come up for sale on CL,Not A difficult build either.
 I enjoy your posts and hope you come up with a safe and affordable approach that works well for you.

 I can see the gears going in your brain all the way up here,my wife would think we're related,

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Offline teakwood

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2018, 06:55:46 AM »
X2. Although i don't know your markets, i can't imagine such an arch to be expensive
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Offline TKehl

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2018, 09:04:55 AM »
Anyone ever seen a log arch winched down over a hill?

Seen it, but haven't done it... yet.  Smaller arch than what has been discussed.  The kind of thing a guy with a stick welder and some scrap metal could build.   ;)

http://timbergreenforestry.com/page234.html
http://timbergreenforestry.com/page235.html

When I build one, I will make it a little bigger with mobile home or steel tires and put a removable dolly wheel in front to help steer it downhill.  Think like the front dolly wheel(s) with tongue of a bar type hay rake.
Lucas 6-13+slabber, Mr. Sawmill bandmill, orange chainsaws, JD SSL, Case Backhoe, farm tractors, trailers, and 150ish acres of trees.  Fledgling woodshop with CNC router, laser engraver, Woodmaster 712, and a Berlin 108 moulder (project).  Oh, and a lovely (patient) wife and four offbearers.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2018, 10:59:43 AM »
Anyone ever seen a log arch winched down over a hill?

Seen it, but haven't done it... yet.  Smaller arch than what has been discussed.  The kind of thing a guy with a stick welder and some scrap metal could build.   ;)

http://timbergreenforestry.com/page234.html
http://timbergreenforestry.com/page235.html

When I build one, I will make it a little bigger with mobile home or steel tires and put a removable dolly wheel in front to help steer it downhill.  Think like the front dolly wheel(s) with tongue of a bar type hay rake.
The arch in the links given was a Future Forestry Arch, Future forestry arches ARE Logrite arches now. Logrite bought the arch line several years ago from Mark Havel.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2018, 11:47:06 AM »
Well, id love to have a normal forestry winch in the normal forestry spot, but ill say it again, i really cant do it with this one.  It would have a fairlead 4feet behind the machine and would wheelie.

Putting an oem winch onto this would cost more than i can come up with.  Selling this to buy a factory winch machine with 6 way, full cab and good undercarriage would result in an even bigger deficit, so im stuck with what ive got for now.  It'll take a few pieces of iron, some bolts, a valve and hoses (all of which i have) to try it up topside.  If it dont work i just take it off.  I'll have no trouble admitting it didnt work out.


I do have a pretty suitable collection of stuff to build a walk behind steerable arch, pallet jack style, to dether down on a cable but i still need to be on a cable so thats a second project ontop the first.  Plus it'd require two guys to operate. 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2018, 11:52:05 AM »
That RC arch is pretty epic.  Im impressed.
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Offline Puffergas

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2018, 12:26:19 PM »
As long as the cable goes to a lower mounted snatch block, the roof mounted winch should not be more prone to tip the cat over than where the down low snatch block is mounted.

If the snatch block is higher than the winch the cat will be more tippy.
Jeff
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GEHL 5624 skid steer, IHC 300 Utility, Timberjack 225D, Burg Bandsaw mill, Steiger Bearcat II

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2018, 01:16:53 PM »
It would add about 500lbs to the roof and move the COG up, but the stability triangle on the thing is pretty darn good and im not much of a risk taker.  If i had to do a pond or 2:1 grade i could pull the winch off and plug the hoses. 

Im considering the lower fairlead as the only skidding location so that the forces acting on the chassis are normal, and any upper rollers as an option for yarding from stable stationary positions.  I mean, i wouldnt consider operating a yoder or yarder before it was rigged up with guy wires or stabilizers on a level pad.  I imagine those are pretty easy to flip if you set up wrong too. So ..dont set up wrong then.
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Offline Puffergas

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2018, 07:47:43 PM »
That is a good point. The weight of the winch would adjust the center of gravity .
Jeff
Somewhere 20 miles south of Lake Erie.

GEHL 5624 skid steer, IHC 300 Utility, Timberjack 225D, Burg Bandsaw mill, Steiger Bearcat II

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2018, 05:06:14 AM »
 Looking at your winch would it be possible to make a spacer plate to go between the current mounting bolts and the mounting points on the back of the machine? That would also require swinging the fairlead 90 but would mount the hyd motor vertically up. Its a hydraulic motor... it doesnt care which way is up.

Seen a study once: Would you believe that in 87% of dozer rollovers other then fluids the machine can be righted and walk off. The odds arent so good for the monkeys in the seat). I've tipped a few myself. Other then some bruises and the shakes and a lunchbox upside the head I've been pretty lucky. I knew some guys who weren't.  Lot of that country we used to work was more brown than green on a contour map though.

I'm hearing ya about the $ Mike, and know you arent going to go looking for trouble with it but still... I'm concerned.
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Offline starmac

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2018, 05:39:22 AM »
Well guys, from what I have seen on what he is looking at doing, the blade will be buried to keep the cat from pulling forward and the winch will be pulling on the dog leg, how is it going to flip the machine unless that little winch can flip it end over end. I doubt seriously the rops would stand that kind of pressure.

Now the weight of the winch will change the center of gravity a bit for general dozer use, but we are talking a very small percentage in the grand scheme of things.
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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2018, 06:49:47 AM »
ummmmmmmm... thinking outside the square.

its a hydraulic winch and aside from line restriction/flow drop (and you got plenty flow on that girl if you put a diversion valve off the angle rams  - mount directly behind the spool valves and the lever comes up beside the right armrest then a pair of quick couplers at the back because I've done this on a D31 afore ) it doesnt need to be hooked to the machine at all.

Build an arch and mount it on that. Keeps it nice and low. Drop two hoses and your drawbar pin and its gone.
Which leads to the next observation that the back half of a wrecked skidder would be worth keeping an eye out for.

The one thing I can tell you for sure Mike is that having done the D31 backwards skid trick myself a time or 500 if you can get an arch she'll tow more going forward with an arch then you ever could off the blade and you wont be cricking your neck all the time doing it, or beating the idlers to death when shes got the drive sprockets off the ground and still pulling like a train. I got a lot of respect for those little tractors, wish I had pictures of some of the things I dragged out with mine.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2018, 01:44:44 PM »
I looked at clocking the winch so that the motor is vert/horizontal.  Its do-able with some vent changing and maybe having to drill and tap a new oil fill for the worm, but then it either puts the freewheel lever in harms way or blocks it, and moves the fairlead down bottom under the winch.  And still is totally in my way.

  Im not saying it couldnt be done, im saying i want it on the roof.  Why? because i believe that is a superior location for my needs with only one small drawback.  Now i could be wrong.  Until someone shows up to say they tried it and went back to conventional mounting because its limits outweighed its merits, we are all kinda guessing and i tend to be stubborn enough to need to see things for myself (and a lot of times conventional wisdom doesnt concur with my results)  I dont dispute that winch on roof will reduce roll stability, but i do believe that is easily compensated for and does not pose a very large hindrance to me personally.  If so, just unbolt and fork it onto the pallet until needed again.

 Can i mount it on an arch?  Certainly, but i dont want to just yet.  Thats 2 pieces of equipment to move to my little jobs and a lot more looking backwards IMO.  If some experiences changes my mind, its not a big deal to build an arch and move it to there.  Well.. It is a big deal right now while most of my machine shop is stuck in mass.  What equipment i have here is how i earn the money to fund trips back up for more of my stuff.  I was never supposed to be a logger, or even have a dozer.  just happened that way.  Gotta make the most of it.

Thanks for all the input. I will probably stick to my guns anyway but if my plan sucks ill probably heed yours eventually so keep em coming.
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2018, 09:10:55 PM »
Atta boy!

i tend to be stubborn enough to need to see things for myself

 :D i'm exactly the same!
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2018, 05:17:27 AM »
Ive learned the most by screwing things up, and ive screwed up a LOT of stuff. 


If it works, ill call it the DODER.  Dozer Yoder.  Backoff Caterpillar, beat it Link-Belt, outta my way Madill!  The Doder is trademarked!
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2018, 07:55:29 AM »
Skagit beat you to the punch https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qSfMEWTLCK0/hqdefault.jpg
Here's another idea
https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/10977231/1996-cat-525
Also don't forget if you decide to put the winch one top to brace the heck out of your ROPS they werent designed for that kind of pulling forces.
https://steepslopelogging.events/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/P1120327-B-846x635.jpg
Another idea is a side mount winch like this one for tethering one of the reasons towers and choker setters are becoming antiques out here.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2018, 10:07:20 AM »
Nice finds!

The cat doesnt look like it was ever finished, no fairlead and cutoff hose stubs.. But i like it.  I did consider winch on back side of the blade (i dont wajt it infront) but it would hit the nose on full lift and i cant give up an inch there.  Plus with a brush bar on there and logs hitched up im pretty toe heavy and wanted some rear ballast.  My blade has been fully reskinned right over the last one with heavy plate also.  I am gonna try a reciever mounted DC truck winch i have on the blade this spring to see if i like it.  Light easy cable to pull for twitching small pulpy stuff.

What theyre doing with the liebher is how i picture the setup.  Push up a mound in front of you to make a flat pad and have no chance of rolling down the hill, then pull everything up to the mound.  Winch up a pile then relay to a skidder/forwarder/forestry trailer from there.


The cab will get 3x3 tube diagonal bracing.  Fwiw, my buddy before me broke a final on this machine and picked it clean off the ground to drive it back to the shop with a cat 330 excavator.  Chained from the rops.  So it held about 17k.  Im thinking most trees will be lighter!  I will set the relief valve so that it cant rip itself apart. 
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Offline coxy

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2018, 03:16:05 PM »
but you where also picking it straight up not pulling back on it if you know what I mean not saying it wont hold

Offline Puffergas

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2018, 06:52:06 PM »
By George the ideas are starting to flow now ! !

http://www.cambrianequipmentsales.ca/images/Dozer/Dozer4.jpg

http://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/EP1057777A2/00320001.png

https://d2uhsaoc6ysewq.cloudfront.net/27387/Pipelayers-Caterpillar-D5N-LGP-8055717.jpg



If it is against the forum rules to post links I can delete them and you all will need to search for dozer side boom.
Jeff
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2018, 10:42:05 PM »
Here's a video of that Skagit, there use to be one around my area I'd bet it's now a pop can or a Toyota Prius.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Steep cable logging question
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2018, 10:32:36 AM »
Yeah id seen a few of those pipeline side boom cranes on auction listings over the years.  The way theyre set up is a cantilever that relies on the counterweight exceeding the line pull resistance to not fulcrum onto their sides.  In my first drawing the double A frame is sort like that in travel mode but then you swing down the other A frame drop leg and now have a 4 post tower on its own legs with a parked dozer for a counterweight.  I think youd break something before flipping the machine.  And hopefully before any of that the log simply gives up the fight and complies with my demand to rise up and walk to me.


I didnt realize how big that crawler yarder was in the first pictures.  275 gallon gas tank.  Thirsty! 

I tried to sell a complete D8 engine of that vintage for years at scrap price with no luck.  Even the export world had no use for it.  Times have changed.   
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