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Started by mitchstockdale, December 31, 2017, 11:53:00 PM

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mitchstockdale

Hey Everyone,

I Plan to do a future OWB install in the next couple of years for my new house, currently under construction.  I want to get all the radiant tubing installed now since it will be inaccessible once the sheetrock is installed.

The question is... do you think i should install radiant tubing on the underside of the second floor?

I have been leaning towards not doing the install of the second floor tubing since i will have a large woodstove (jotul f600) and ductless heat pump units (needed for insurance) heating the centre cathedral sections of the house (all rooms are accessed from this center cathedral section).

My thought is if i install radiant tubing under the first floor only, coupled with the wood stove and ductless heat pumps there would be enough heat from those sources to heat the rooms on the second floor. 

Basement is only A crawlspace and will be insulated and heated once the OWB is installed most likely with a fan radiator of sorts, and electric backup.

Has anybody come across this predicament before any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks
Mitch



KamHillbilly

After you get use to the heated floor on the first floor I think you'll be disappoint you didn't do it on second floor while you had the chance . The tubing isn't the expensive part put it in while it's easily done
Homemade Bandmill ,Clark 664b ,Case 780b ,Jonsered 670,630

50 Acre Jim

I agree wholeheartedly with KamHillbilly.  We put radiant heat in all our rooms except the bedrooms.  The thought was that we sleep in a cold room so no need to heat it.  Wrong decision.  Now we have a granddaughter and the room is too cold for her.  Install it now cuz as you noted, you won't be able to go back and add it later.  Radiant heat is awesome, you'll love it! 

Edit:  Add as many zones as you can afford.  That's what we should have done for the bedrooms instead of leaving them out of the loop.  Also, our kitchen and living room are on the same loop but the kitchen has more windows than the living room so on a cold night, the kitchen is always a few degrees colder than the living room.  If we had put it on a loop of its own we could have just raised the temp in that room a few degrees. 
Go to work?  Probably Knott.  Because I cant.

peterpaul

We have radient in my basement slab and first floor.  The second floor we went with Radsen Radiators which are individually controlled.  We have 7 zones, each with either power heads or zone valves controlled by a thermostat.  The entire second floor (3 bedrooms and bath) is controlled by a thermostat located in the bathroom.  Works well, allows us to shut down 3 bedrooms when not in use, keeps the MBed cool, Mbath warm by keeping door closed.  In the basement, I did not run tubing in one small storage room (cold cellar) and insulated from the heated space.  We have a lot of south facing glass, so get good solar heat gain as well.
Zones are: basement, hearth room(first floor), liviing room/dining room/kitchen (open floor plan), master bedroom (incl. master closet), master bath, second floor, attached 24 x 26 garage.
We have a masonery heater to reduce propane consumption.  I'm please with the performance.  FYI, -12 this morning, if your feet are warm, your warm.

Woodmizer LT15, Kubota 4330 GST, Wallenstein FX 85, Timberwolf TW6, homemade firewood conveyor

KamHillbilly

I agree with lots of zones I have my bedrooms and bath zoned individually , kitchen and living area zoned together . My walkout basement is unfinished but pipe is laid out so it is easily zoned in future .
Homemade Bandmill ,Clark 664b ,Case 780b ,Jonsered 670,630

mitchstockdale

Thanks for the insight guys..looks like i should be getting geared up to install the second floor tubing.

What is yours guys opinion of installing the aluminum heat transfer plates to hold the pex tubing...I have read things  arguing installing them and not installing them.  The way i see it is if I install adequate insulation to direct the heat upwards the transfer plates are really only to hold the pipe, which can be done with those black pipe clamps.

There seems to be various ways to install the tubing, I see 250ft of pipe is max for a loop.  Do you guys know of a good comprehensive source that you could point me towards for the install and what equipment is typical.  I have had some exposure to this stuff but that was a few years ago now and cant seem to remember anything.

Thanks

Crusarius

I have radiant floor in the downstairs of the house. It is a concrete slab. That and a wood stove downstairs is how I heat my house.

I like having just the downstairs heated cause all the bedrooms are upstairs and I like it cold when I sleep. There are very few times I want heat upstairs. The primary times I do is when it has been below 0 for a week. Then it starts to get kinda chilly in my room. When that happens a well placed fan in the open loft area will warm the room right up.

The wood stove just heats the air since I have a loft area that is open right to the roof. Without the wood stove I get a cold draft rolling off the loft floor onto the couch. It really is not bad but the wood stove makes it very nice.

sprucebunny

I skipped the transfer plates and glued down vinyl plank floor for best heat transfer. Tile in bathroom.
I used the special clips that keep the tubing 1/4" away from subfloor as it is recomended and I would be nailing 1/4 smooth plywood before vinyl. It works well even with quite a few windows.
MS193, MS192 and an 026  Weeding and Thinning. Gilbert Champion sawmill

John Mc

When we built our house, we did radiant in the basement slab, and radiant on the first floor. On the first floor we poured a lightweight concrete slab under hardwood floors in most areas, with tile in the entrance hall and kitchen. (The tile transfers heat much quicker, but the radiant heat still works well under the Ash wood floors.) We wanted to get a little thermal mass, so these zones weren't cycling on and off all the time.

The upstairs we used baseboard hot water. Our thinking here was that we wanted a quicker response time than on the main floors, since the bedrooms would be turned down when not in use. The concrete slabs do take a while to warm back up if we turn them down (but then that's what thermal mass is all about).

This is all fired by a propane boiler. However, we have a wood stove in the center of the first floor that is our primary heat unless we are away, sick, or we get a really frigid spell. We have a cathedral area that is open to the second floor, if we open the bedroom doors, we can heat the whole first & second floors with the woodstove in all but the coldest weather (we've been below 0˚F for about a week - the wood stove keeps up for my comfort level, but my wife kicks on one of the radiant zones on the first floor occasionally - she likes the warm feet).

If you are doing radiant heat in a slab, be sure to include provisions for a thermocouple in the slab. Our thermostats for the slab areas have two inputs: one has the normal air sensor, the other senses the slab and keeps it above a minimum temperature. (This basically keeps the slab from going stone cold in between times when the air sensor is calling for heat.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Crusarius

The thermal couple in the slab would be great. I get quite a bit of temperature fluctuation with just the air sensor. Especially with the wood stove running.

John Mc

Quote from: Crusarius on January 01, 2018, 01:32:36 PM
The thermal couple in the slab would be great. I get quite a bit of temperature fluctuation with just the air sensor. Especially with the wood stove running.

Yeah, that slab thermocouple really helps prevent the large swings. It is possible to add one after the fact, but you need an infrared device to see where the radiant tubes are - and then just drill into a spot where the tubes aren't. It's a whole lot easier to just do it when you are pouring the slab, since you can run the wiring in the slab as well (we capped the end of some tubing and used it as a conduit for the wiring and thermocouple - that way if the thermocouple brakes, we can just pull the wires back and replace it.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Crusarius

I do have access to thermal imaging cameras. That thought had just crossed my mind. Just not sure how I would wire it into the system.

I really need to learn alot more about electronics and controls. Especially with what I am dreaming of for my mill. Lets just say arduino cutset v1.0? :)

John Mc

Quote from: Crusarius on January 01, 2018, 02:13:22 PM
I do have access to thermal imaging cameras. That thought had just crossed my mind. Just not sure how I would wire it into the system.

When I finally get around to adding the one that I should have put in my basement slab, the wiring is going to run down a column in the center of the basement. It's a metal column enclosed in wooden trim, so it will be easy to hide the wires. Once it gets into the ceiling, would be easy to run it over to the wall to the utility room. That wall is where my air thermostat is mounted. However, I'm thinking I may put the air sensor thermostat out on that column as well.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

50 Acre Jim

I bought some infrared night vision 5-6 years ago.  Everyone asks about the floor heat and I break them out and let them see the loops under the floor.  That's always a hit!   ;D
Go to work?  Probably Knott.  Because I cant.

E Yoder

Back to whether or not to run the tubing now or not I would agree do it while you can. And as long as you loop it so each room is as much as possible on its own then you can run multiple zones or at least throttle flow to adjust temps from your main manifold.
Running suspended tube v. transfer plates means you'll need to run hotter water (suspended) but that's not as much of an issue with an wood boiler that runs constant hot anyway. If you have storage then low temp water is important. Definitely insulate underneath.
HeatMaster dealer in VA.
G7000

shinnlinger

I installed pex in my second floor but have yet to hook it up, but this past week I wish I had!  As for the aluminum plates, I bought a 4 foot roll of armafoil, which is basically aluminum tyvec and cut it into 8 inch lengths on my metal cutting chop saw.  I took those small rolls and use them to staple the pex to the underside of my main floor.  It was quite fast as the roll would cover the whole width of the house and pretty inexpensive.  The main floor heats well.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

mitchstockdale

Quote from: E Yoder on January 02, 2018, 05:00:04 AM
Back to whether or not to run the tubing now or not I would agree do it while you can. And as long as you loop it so each room is as much as possible on its own then you can run multiple zones or at least throttle flow to adjust temps from your main manifold.

Ok, I figure I need approximately two loops of 300ft for each third of the floor area... total of 6 loops for the second floor. 

What is most common practice for getting to the second floor?  Have a central set of 1/2" manifolds in the crawlspace to run the loop lines back to?

Is there any benefit to installing electric valves vs the manual valves at the manifold?  other than convenience of temperature control via a thermostat.

E Yoder

You could run 1" Pex up to manifolds in a closet or pull them all down to the bottom. Insulating the lines down to the bottom will help keep the heat only where you want it.
Electric zone valves v. manually throttling each loop would depend on how many zones/thermostats you want upstairs. If the loops are planned carefully you can adjust a particular room cooler just by throttling it down.
I'm curious what other guys think.
HeatMaster dealer in VA.
G7000

Crusarius

you are correct about the throttling I have 1 thermostat in the house and throttle all my rooms.

Holmes

  the extruded aluminum plates are good, quiet, help heat transfer a lot and are expensive. The stamped aluminum plates are expensive , but cheap, and are very noisy from expansion and contraction. I do not recommend them unless you want to do a constant circulation system , which is an added expense but much more comfortable, no heat swings.  Do not exceed 300' total loop lengths with half inch pipe. Suspended system is fine just make sure you insulate below the pipes well.
My house is 75% radiant heat. I did the bedrooms with baseboard heating now I wish I had done them with radiant.
I f you are going to install hardwood floors make certain the nails , staples are short enough to not penetrate thru the hard wood and sub floor. Other wise you could end up with a sprinkler system, holes in pipes.  Quarter sawn flooring is much better to use over radiant than flat sawn flooring. Flat sawn shrinks more. Shrinking is not totally related to the radiant heat is is more related to the lack of humidity in the house in the winter. It may be wise to plan on a humidification system. 
Think like a farmer.

overclocking

My theory on the plates is run them if you can. If there are nails all over from hardwood floors or the backer board you might not be able to run the plates.

Its really two different but acceptable forms of transferring the heat.

If you run the plates its likely you wont need to insulate under the ceiling drywall because the plates transfer the heat mostly by conduction. I would run some type of vapor barrier under the ceiling drywall though to keep it from discoloring from the temperature changes.
If you just run the loops and no plates your going to want to add at least tabbed foil foam radiant barrier to trap the air into a 2 inch void in order to promote convection.
Its not wrong either way, they both work as long as the loops aren't over length.

As far as getting the heat upstairs, I would suggest 1 inch pex to a center mounted manifold if you can and zone control them electronically.

My main floor is heated, but my upstairs is not and I wish it was. There is nothing more comfortable than that type of radiant heat. I would absolutely spend the money now, and not wish you had later.

shinnlinger

I used armafoil and there is no noise from expansion/contraction and it was cheap and easy.  I nailed my air dried flat sawn pine into the joists so as to avoid the pex with ring shank nails in my air nailer. I painted the heads black first and turned up the air to get a nice countersink.  Again, cheap and easy.  I even put them down rough sawn and then floor sanded in place.  8 years later and held up pretty well.  In winter the cracks open up a bit but not too bad.
Shinnlinger
Woodshop teacher, pasture raised chicken farmer
34 horse kubota L-2850, Turner Band Mill, '84 F-600,
living in self-built/milled timberframe home

mitchstockdale

Quote from: shinnlinger on January 08, 2018, 07:38:23 AM
I used armafoil and there is no noise from expansion/contraction and it was cheap and easy.  I nailed my air dried flat sawn pine into the joists so as to avoid the pex with ring shank nails in my air nailer. I painted the heads black first and turned up the air to get a nice countersink.  Again, cheap and easy.  I even put them down rough sawn and then floor sanded in place.  8 years later and held up pretty well.  In winter the cracks open up a bit but not too bad.

I may see what i can find that is similar to Armafoil around here the hardware stores typically only deal in the basics.  Will most likely end up using the plastic clips with pre loaded nail.

I have been thinking of doing the same type of floor but since my joist are running the same  direction that i would like the flooring to run I have been considering gluing it down with Mapei adhesive.

mitchstockdale

Quote from: overclocking on January 04, 2018, 11:08:40 PM
My theory on the plates is run them if you can. If there are nails all over from hardwood floors or the backer board you might not be able to run the plates.

Its really two different but acceptable forms of transferring the heat.

If you run the plates its likely you wont need to insulate under the ceiling drywall because the plates transfer the heat mostly by conduction. I would run some type of vapor barrier under the ceiling drywall though to keep it from discoloring from the temperature changes.
If you just run the loops and no plates your going to want to add at least tabbed foil foam radiant barrier to trap the air into a 2 inch void in order to promote convection.
Its not wrong either way, they both work as long as the loops aren't over length.

Most likely not doing the plates unless i get a heck of a deal.  As a minimum for insulation I plan to use 1" or 1.5" EPS foam with a reflective face

Quote from: overclocking on January 04, 2018, 11:08:40 PM
As far as getting the heat upstairs, I would suggest 1 inch pex to a center mounted manifold if you can and zone control them electronically.

I have been looking at this for a couple weeks now and I dont have a good spot for the manifold upstairs on the second floor....will most likely be bringing all the 1/2" leads down to the crawlspace.

Quote from: overclocking on January 04, 2018, 11:08:40 PM
My main floor is heated, but my upstairs is not and I wish it was. There is nothing more comfortable than that type of radiant heat. I would absolutely spend the money now, and not wish you had later.

Great advise thanks...have really come to this realization since the thread was started... everybody has been very helpful.

Will try and post a layout for people to see what I am up to.

mitchstockdale

Sorry for the quality if you squint really hard you can sort of make things out.  I attached a PDF also has better quality.



  



 



 

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