Responding to dangerous practices

[grtroes]

I have met many so-called professional and semipro foresters who proudly proclaim that they completely grind off the depth gauges on all their chains.  A "pro" timber cutter in Colorado cuts big hickory and oak timber with a big saw, using a full-skip chain with no depth gauges.  He claims that all professional sawyers get rid of the gauges.  His saw produces "noodles" -- his terminology -- that are 1/16 to 1/8 inch thick, and about 2" long.  Another cutter, working for a Missouri River clear-cutting outfit in Nebraska, makes the same claim. And now a relative in Wisconsin tells me he also "improves" his chains by grinding down the rakers.  He bucks hundreds of trees a year to produce firewood for sale.  I tell all these guys that I think they're stupid or suicidal, or both.  Every one of them has challenged me to provide any evidence that removing is a bad thing for skilled professionals to do.  The guy in Colorado says being able to buck a 48" hickory log in less than a minute gives him a big competitive advantage.

Does anybody have OSHA or industry safety data that I can use to wake these guys up about the dangers to making such a major modification to a chainsaw?  All of these guys use big saws with big bars.  I'm often away from my computer for several days at a time, so you may send me an email reply, or reply here and I'll see it eventually.  Thanks!

[thecfarm]

grtroes,welcome to the forum.
I myself would not bother. There is a little bull going on,but there is some truth too. I don't concern myself with speed. Some I heard will even run the oil mix on the low side to make the saw run faster. Kinda the same idea. Much easier to say,"yep",than to say anything else. As I told my FIL,when he was trying to tell me what others have told him, :,I've heard all them stories many time before.

[ZeroJunk]

I want to see the 48 inch hickory log in less than a minute.

[Maine logger88]

There is no way even with a big saw will have enough power too pull the chain through a log with no depth gauges. I have found that a saw of any cc range will cut faster if you keep the depth gauges in spec and the rpms up. Plus there is no way a man could hold a saw cutting with the top of the chain. I call BS lol

[NWP]

I want to see the 48 inch hickory log in less than a minute.

I just want to see a 48" hickory in Colorado.

[beenthere]

grtroes
Welcome to the Forestry Forum.

I agree with theCfarm, let 'em talk.

If they like cutting with no rakers, then let it be.

What are you cutting with? Let's hear what you do.
Your whereabouts would be helpful, and you could fill out your bio some in your profile (i.e. location as to country, or state, or ? )

And are pro or semi-pro foresters cutting trees?

[Southside]

I want to see the foresters cutting trees, then find out how to get them to do it around here....

[Andyshine77]

I like pie, anyone else? 8)

[Al_Smith]

I'd like to see a hickory tree period in Colorado . :D

[drobertson]

I have found that the longer bigger noodles get clogged in the discharge chute on my 362,  the 311 does pretty well when rip sawing.  But taking down the rakes, they must have lots of hp.

[LittleJohn]

Had an uncle who "modified", not removed his rakers, so he could cut poplar faster, and MAN-O-MAN would those saws fly thru poplar when sharp.  ...and the first oak you hit with his saw, would about shake your teeth out.

[Compensation]

Welcome to the forum. Sometimes you just have to nod and walk away. You already have some good people giving better responses than I can give. I keep mine filed in with a guide now. Used to bump it with the sharpening wheel.

I like pie, anyone else? 8)

Apple with vanilla ice cream on top

[Jeff]

There is a directive that says the chainsaw chain must be properly adjusted. Using a broad sense of that directive, one could possibly construe that is not only in reference to factory specs on chain tension, but also in the way it is sharpened.

https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9862&p_text_version=FALSE#1910.266%28e%29%282%29

[weimedog]

A Troll. Any one who mentions OSHA in the same paragraph with chainsaws. Troll. You don't wish OSHA, MSHA, or any other agency like that on any industry.

[Jeff]

I have my ideas about the topic, but usually am willing to see where it will lead as long as no line of conduct has been crossed. Whoever he is, he does have a Colorado I.P.

[JohnW]

I noticed in advice about how to set up a racing saw, that the guy said not to get too aggressive with the depth gauge.  If your saw faulters for a second, you loose.

[Bret4207]

I have met many so-called professional and semipro foresters who proudly proclaim that they completely grind off the depth gauges on all their chains.  A "pro" timber cutter in Colorado cuts big hickory and oak timber with a big saw, using a full-skip chain with no depth gauges.  He claims that all professional sawyers get rid of the gauges.  His saw produces "noodles" -- his terminology -- that are 1/16 to 1/8 inch thick, and about 2" long.  Another cutter, working for a Missouri River clear-cutting outfit in Nebraska, makes the same claim. And now a relative in Wisconsin tells me he also "improves" his chains by grinding down the rakers.  He bucks hundreds of trees a year to produce firewood for sale.  I tell all these guys that I think they're stupid or suicidal, or both.  Every one of them has challenged me to provide any evidence that removing is a bad thing for skilled professionals to do.  The guy in Colorado says being able to buck a 48" hickory log in less than a minute gives him a big competitive advantage.

Does anybody have OSHA or industry safety data that I can use to wake these guys up about the dangers to making such a major modification to a chainsaw?  All of these guys use big saws with big bars.  I'm often away from my computer for several days at a time, so you may send me an email reply, or reply here and I'll see it eventually.  Thanks!

I don't know that there's anything patently "unsafe" about taking the rakers way down, but it's hard on the saw and harder on the chain. It's their choice, but it sounds like a lot of bull to me. I don't particularly care what OSHA thinks about. I also don't know any "foresters" that are also loggers. Foresters are the woodlot management guys, loggers do the cutting.

[HolmenTree]

The past downed  quote of the pro cutter with no depth gauges may have got lost in the translation over the years.
With the common confusion of the labeling of rakers , depth gauges and safety ramps  it's probably the safety ramps or links that were ground off to help improve the chains cutting speed...... common method in timber sport competitions.
A saw chain is not designed to cut without depth gauges, kick back energy would be enormous and if some one did try it the chain loop would break apart very quickly.

[nell6355]

I sharpen my chains by hand with a round file, with just a special handle and visual guide.   Each time I sharpen them the cutter gets shorter by about 0.020 inch.  that's a guess.   After sharpening them about 2 or 3 times, the chips get smaller.   That is when I grind down the depth guides a little.  My saws 034/044/MS460 cut best when the depth gage is about 0.040 to 0.060 below a straightedge held on top of two cutters.   Depth gages too tall:   that can make the saw cut crooked because the cutters can't get a good bite except at the very tips.   Depth gages too short:  that causes heavy vibration, stalling, and can burn up your saw.   The saw needs to run through the cut at the highest engine speed possible.  Slow down the cooling fan by pushing the saw through the cut, and it can overheat the cylinder.   I know of some professional crews that have burned up 362s because the guys were used to 044s and were pushing that little saw and bogging it down.  So that's what I do, and it works for me.  My chains cut slightly more aggressively than shop - sharpened chains.  Sharp and properly gaged chains take some work out of the work!  I had to learn it myself because when I started out I couldn't afford to have my chains sharpened.   Now I have money, but I can do it better, and only take the chains off to flip the bar or true it up.  In 30 years I have broken one chain "for no reason" on the MS460, and it was a fresh 84 link full skip chain straight from Stihl.  All the other ones that broke had a good reason.  So call me silly if you wish.

[giant splinter]

I kinda stand with Nell, the method described works great on my 044 and if I find it getting tired I will touch it up just a little between sharpenings even if its only a couple of cutters and then try to balance out everything the next time I sharpen it up. I think keeping them touched up keeps the power at its optimum.

[petefrom bearswamp]

I am a forester (retired)  and have done some logging in the past as well as quite a lot of firewood.
Used to do TSI work in the 70s typically felling hundreds of trees in a day.
I keep my rakers slightly below the supplied gauge spec and the saws cut great.
I did drive a saw into my knee tearing the muniscus while under sawing many years ago. Lesson learned.

[beenthere]

while under sawing

What does that mean? just curious.

[JohnG28]

I think he means cutting with the top of bar and kicking back out towards him?

[beenthere]

That makes sense.  thanks

[HolmenTree]

I think he means cutting with the top of bar and kicking back out towards him?

If Pete cut his knee with a kickback the logical thing would be that he was back chaining while making the felling back cut. Nose of bar contacted stump as he pulled out of cut and the kickback contacted his right knee.
Happened to me once but safety pants saved my knee.

[Spartan]

This makes no sense to me.  The only way I know to get noodles is cutting with the grain, not against.  A forester probably knows bunk about cutting with a saw vs a logger.  If I take my rakers even a little too low, it is horrible, bogs, vibrates, not efficient in any way.  would hate to limb with no rakers, that would be plain stupid and dangerous, especially on a skip.  I just don't even get the argument, my guess is that if they are saying that, they really are not very qualified at what they are doing. 

I would tell them good for you, and walk away.

[sawguy21]

When I started in the shop in the mid 70's the loggers and farmers were using high torque low speed saws  with aggressive chain. More than a few took the rakers way down then complained about excessive vibration and lost parts. Some never got it, we just smiled and took their money. ;D
I don't know why the op would even worry about arguing with these guys, the only way to convince them would be to cut along side. I have met people who would rather look stupid than admit they were wrong. Somebody once said something to the effect that a man will fight hardest to hang onto his ignorance.

[Jeff]

The original poster certainly must have bee a troll. He has never been back since making the post. probably someone's idea of a panty raid.

[Al_Smith]

 :D Panty raid aye  :D FWIW there have been more than the usual amount  of rather "troolish " type comments on several forums the last several weeks .Maybe it's the time change or the eclipse of the moon several weeks ago .

[mad murdock]

I think a "yooper" night or 2 are in order to inoculate the FF from those types.  ;)

[Jeff]

It seems to be a good way to weed out the potential problem children. :D

[barbender]

I just want to see that 48" Colorado Hickory. The Missouri River clear cutting operation sounds interesting too :D

[Al_Smith]

I'd like to see a 48" hickory any where .Think of how many axe handles that thing would make .

[JohnG28]

I'd like to see a 48" hickory any where .Think of how many axe handles that thing would make .

Can't you find them in the same area as the eastern redwood?

[Al_Smith]

Well yeah but they are hard to find .It's been reported there is a small grove of eastern redwoods on the south shore of lake Superior as well as arctic palm trees and alligators with fur like a grizzley bear .It's the same area reports of hens teeth came from .--the first BS artist doesn't stand a chance . 8)

[Caloren]

They ought to have a "like" button on some of these posts!  :D

[JohnG28]

 :D :D

[Al_Smith]

 :D Oh it can get worse believe me .I'd well imagine about the time Jeff ruins a keyboard from spitting coffee all over it it probabley would come to a halt .-until then----bring it on . 8)

[WmFritz]

--the first BS artist doesn't stand a chance . 8)

Especially when Al decides to pull his rubber boots on.  :D :D

[Al_Smith]

 :D I can't help myself it just comes out like a fart in the middle of a sermon .

[clww]

Nice  :

[SliverPicker]

I'd like to see a hickory tree period in Colorado . :D

My thought as well.  Sounds like horse pucky to me.

[DaleK]

I know a couple of Amishmen running saws with no depth gauge at all on them. Of course they also have 12 year olds running commercial mills before and after school with 9 and 10 year olds running edgers and planers. Big on the concept of "it doesn't matter what I do, it's God's will"
Hired one to help me one winter, sent him home before noon or he probably would have gotten us both killed.

[petefrom bearswamp]

Havent visited this thread in a while.
Yes I was cutting with the top of the bar when the saw kicked and the handle struck me just below the kneecap.
No cut just a lot of pain.
I have filed my rakers a little too much a couple of times and the saw grabs badly.

[Mn woodchuck]

I I agree with Nell also I find that about .040 on clearance is just about perfect I've even went to 45 and they still work at 35..

[coxy]

I have filed the rakers all the way off just to watch my ex bro in law through the saw @@@ and moan and carry on like  a little school girl  :D  I would love to see them cut hickory with no rakers ill say BS  I put on a new chain and file it out of the box and take 2 drags off each raker then the chain (to me ) is good for at least 5-6 fileings (if it don't get stoned ) :D

[HiTech]

I don't consider myself a Pro or Expert but a new out of the box chain to me is the best to cut trees down with. They cut nice and smooth with no grabbing and minimal applied pressure. Once they need to be touched up with a file I will also touch the rakers up a bit. Perhaps you could file the rackers way down on softwood but for hardwood I think the saw would jump so much you couldn't hold on to it. Then of course I have seen guys walking around with huge scars on their faces from chainsaw jumps. Was always told the tip caught. To me grabby chains are dangerous. Wisdom comes with age and in some cases it never comes. I had a very old logger tell me that it never pays to hurry or take shortcuts. He told me logging was much like carpentry...measure twice, cut once.

[FayettesFinest]

As a bit of a newbie to this whole industry and chainsaws in general, how often should I file down the rakers? I try to file my chain through every second tank of gas or so, depending on what I'm cutting. I've been cutting a lot of really dirty stuff that's been laying down on my friends farm and I've found that the saws aren't real big fans of trees caked in mud. Also, here in SWPA and I'm sure in other regions as well, a lot of the locust trees have some kind of blight or disease and I've noticed that the saws don't like that either... Needless to say, I file my chains a good bit. If it's just a "clean up" sharpening, I'll hit each tooth 3-5 times. If the saw is cutting like a butterknife, I'll hit them about 10 times. Is this a good method?

[beenthere]

Do what works best for you.
I file after every tank of fuel (unless I touch the saw in the dirt or rock it). Then usually just a couple good strokes. File the rakers WITH A GAUGE about every other filing.

The tool I've found that works best for me is the Pferd jig. Has a plate for filing off the rakers with a flat file to the right height for softwood or hardwoods. About $10 and easy to use. 

 

Never, IMO, should a chain become so dull that more than 3-4 strokes with a sharp file would be necessary. IMO  others opinions vary.  ;D

[celliott]

There isn't a correct number of strokes for each tooth to restore it's sharpness. It's however many it takes to get the working corner back. If it takes 4 each, good, if it takes 10, fine. If one takes 4 and one takes 6, OK as long as the working corner on the top plate is sharp.

Beenthere, I use that same guide, it works great, especially for the depth gauges.
I've gotten so where I can free-hand file the teeth without the roller guide pretty well (the guide helped build muscle memory) However, I still use the depth gauge guide.
I bought one for .325 chain recently too.

[Ianab]

Exactly.  If you sharpen the chain as soon as it starts to get dull, then 3 or 4 strokes is about right. If you hit fence wire, or the chain has been otherwise abused, then you sharpen until you get a good edge. If that takes 10 strokes, so be it. Watch the top of the plate. If you can see they shiny rounded over edge shining away there, then keep filing.

Same with the rakers. If a chain gets an easy life the rakers can actually wear down on their own. But if you have to give it a heavy sharpen after hitting a rock, then the rakers will usually be too high. Take them down "as needed".  The exact ideal height is going to depend on "things" Saw power, what wood you are cutting etc. The factory height will be a good average, but you can maybe vary that a little and get better results in a specific scenario.  A powerful saw in softwood will probably cut faster if the rakers a bit lower etc. 

[Al_Smith]

Ya know there's as much controversy of raker filing as there is brands of chainsaws and oil mix ratios .

I personally in the entire usable life of a chain might only hit the rakers 3 or 4 times .

[CTYank]

Ya know there's as much controversy of raker filing as there is brands of chainsaws and oil mix ratios .

I personally in the entire usable life of a chain might only hit the rakers 3 or 4 times .

Or less. Exception being a rocked chain. As Ianab noted, a chain that's led a "quiet" life doesn't need much stroking on the depth gauges. Except in dirty wood (don't see much of that) one stroke per tooth every other fillup, with Granberg guide, and cutters stay like razors.

Any dirt on the wood, time for semi-chisel. Once some full-chisel chains are used up, all my chains will be semi. Way more productive over the course of a day. (Yes, I hit them a stroke every other fillup. A light stroke.)

Meanwhile I'm trying to get the attention of some fellow sawyers that they need to check/set their depth gauges after I grind a chain of theirs that's been rocked. Blank stare sez it all.

[ZeroJunk]

It's been a long time since I kept a saw long enough to mess with rakers. Matter of fact if I hand file more than a couple of times before it is off to some happy home it is unusual. So, I know little about the job.

I had a saw shop "touch up" the rakers on a chain a couple of years ago and it was so grabby you could hardly use it.

So, I take it is an inexact science.

[coxy]

I also found that if rakers are down to far and saw is grabbing take a few more strokes off the chain

[thecfarm]

@Al_Smith,I'm with you on the rakers. I just guess at the grinding off part with my 4 inch grinder.   ;D  Seems to work. Most times I wait until the chain is just about gone before I touch the rakers. Must be doing something right,it draws into the wood by itself.

[Al_Smith]

Once I discovered chisel chain I never went back to semi or chipper except on the antiques .Even some of them are wearing chisel  8)

I've got stump cutters if I need them which is seldom .Stumpers being a chain with about 1 or two more filings left before you pitch it .

If it's good chain just getting short in the tooth  I might cut it down to 16" and make a racer out of it if the mood strikes me .Lately not so much .

[Mn woodchuck]

I run chisel on everything. Stay out of the dirt and off the rocks !!!
ThAt will eat any chain ..