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Author Topic: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making  (Read 1169 times)

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Offline Malfestus

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New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« on: September 03, 2021, 01:12:25 PM »
Hello,

I am new to the forums as mentioned in the title so please be gentle!

A little background (feel free to skip if timber framing is your main care!):
I have been an outdoors man for most of my life as I was raised on hiking, winter sports, camping, and the likes.  Eventually I started rock climbing and have been for about 15 years or so now which is a lifestyle of its own at this point (lots of time spent in the gym, pretty much every vacation being a climbing trip and so on).  I added on backpacking and primitive camping, specifically bushcraft, a few years back because I felt the drive to be able to achieve goals with minimal tools that I was previously doing with the help of many tools.  From something as simple as starting every fire with nothing more than the axe, knife and firesteel I replaced my torches/starters and so on with to creating leantoos, building my own camp and whatnot with not a power tool in site.  I met my wife about 7 years ago and she loves every bit of it just as much as I do.  We both are at the point that we know without a doubt that we want a life where the work we put in day in and day out feels as satisfying as possible, and to us that is in creating things for ourselves that improve our lives without all of the hubub of the common modern comforts like TV.  I have been working on cabinetry skills, focused on non-power tools.  Dovetailing, mortise and tenoning, half laps, and other joints on small projects using what tools I have.  I have also been working on larger scale joints by making some (very likely over engineered) sawhorses, metal-free.    Homesteading is our goal.  To take a raw, quite rugged, 80 acre plot of old growth forest (that we recently acquired) with nothing more than a very rugged dirt road (a 4x4 vehicle is nearly required to get to the easiest spot to access), and turn it into a managed forest that provides as much as we can reasonably hope to get out of it.  Ill save the agroforestry for another forum, and get to the point regarding timber framing.

My wife and I (no kids, and none in the future) have agreed after much contemplation that a very simple timber frame (or 2) would be suitable for our purposes.  Wood stove heated, cooling is still being researched, minimal electricity as we will be reliant on a battery bank, solar array and generator, and for the most part just the necessities.   Composting toilets, water catchment and storage will be happening (no laws preventing it) but we will also be drilling a well. 


Relative to Timber Framing:

As for the buildings, we have been use to some small homes for quite some time and are perfectly comfortable in smaller square footage homes.  The layout we will be perusing is focused on simplicity, space efficiency and possibly a modular building design to separate a living/sleeping space from a cooking space in two separate small frames connected by a breezeway.  To put the frame sizes into perspective of how small/simple im thinking, think 16x30 and 10x10 or so respectively.  Id like to turn away focus from the grand plan to get more to the point though.

As we develop our location, we are starting small and will be working up to the legitimate living quarters (unless convinced otherwise by logic).  I have joined up at the timber framers guild and have been reading whatever timber frame books I can get my hands on from the big names in the industry and believe that a reasonable goal to first set for myself is to use one of the designs (most are almost identical as they are all based off of Jack Sobon's garden toolshed design) for a small 16x12 frame.   

So thats the current goal, is to timber frame a small 16x12 frame... Now for the caveats:
-The land is rugged, and very difficult to get anything more than a 4x4 vehicle onto (jeep/single axle trucks and so on). 
-Elevation gain/loss is real, 600ft from top to  bottom.
-We are fully aware that hard work, endless sweating and a suffer-fest will be a large part of this, and we are excited for it.


Timber Sourcing:  If possible, i would much prefer to source all of the timber from my own land and trees.  The whole area is completely covered in old growth oaks, maples, pines and more.  I will be spending time identifying the specific species next weekend.  Should there be some reason that I cannot feasibly source my own timber, I do have a local family owned saw mill down the road who has decent prices and will custom cut, but I really want to see how much of this I can achieve myself.  So primary desire, source my own, backup, buy local milled timbers and work my ass off to get them onto the property.
     
I am interested in suggestions/procedures and whatnot regarding this process.  I do plan to speed the process of timbering up by using a chainsaw and recently purchased a 661, i read/heard a whole lot about how important the power head's output is so I figured id get a good tool for the job.  Ill be using it to cut down the trees I identify as quality and mill them (granburg mill) myself.   Note, at this time I do not plan to mill lumber, just the timbers.  

Due to the difficult nature of bringing in large tools like hydraulics and the like, I will be attempting to do everything I can with manpower (I have a bit of a crew who will offer aid here and there).  Im thinking carts and a few people for moving timber that has been cut to size and so on.  Again, suffer fest of fun.

Has anybody else gone through a similar process who would like to provide me with some words of wisdom, warnings, suggestions, ways to not blow up the beautiful saw I now have, and so on?

Can anyone provide me with stories of similar experiences in self sourcing timbers for one's own timber frame?

Be gentle!  And please dont focus on telling me how much work it will be, I am aware, and committed. 


Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline Andries

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2021, 04:31:59 PM »
Malfestus,  you may just be the Forestry Forum's version of 'Mr. Chickadee'. (That's a compliment btw) You can find him on YouTube.
Many on the FF are one of: a logger, a sawyer, a timberframer, a carpenter, a forester, a  . . you get the picture. 
Becoming all of these is what you're looking for advice on. If you look at the profiles of the average Forum member, they're middle-aged or beyond, have scars, hernias and bank accounts that reflect their lifetime experiences in the sawdust business, and most have settled on becoming expert at one or two of these disciplines.
I wish you all the best in your quest and would simplify my overall advice to one theme. Learn to love the process. Whether it's tree felling or perfecting a Dutch mortise and tenon, focus on skills and ability. You'll always be encouraged when you figure out a better way to do something and you'll need all of the positive feedback you can get. 😉 
PS: read and post often, you'll get tons of support here.
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Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2021, 05:54:14 PM »
Thanks for the reply Andries!

I love watching Mr. Chickadee!  I watch him when Im feeling overwhelmed with the planning/researching/learning because I just get to watch somebody cut some beautiful joints and take it nice and slow!

I appreciate your suggestion greatly, to learn to love the process.  It seems simple but surprisingly enough its not something I have been told or have heard from the time I have spent researching yet, but can certainly could imagine how it will apply to my grand plan!

As soon as I can post pics, ill likely begin posting pictures of the process for anyone interested (or my own enjoyment).  Ill be on site for a weekend to do some hand moving of a few tons of gravel to fill some nasty mud ruts (that i am nearly high centering on in a stock rubicon) so that I dont create hell for myself come rain season!  
While I am out there, I am aiming to at least identify a handful of specific trees that fit the diameter/straightness/not twisted requirements.  I hope to find some suitable specimens in a reasonable location (preferably an area that I need to clear out or thin out anyways for something like where I might cut a pond, put in a garden, or turn into an orchard or even the build site).  Ill try to document it in picture form!

Should anyone have any suggestions for things to be aware of when tagging/identifying trees for timbering, Im all ears!

Thanks again!
Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2021, 02:42:29 PM »
Should anyone have any suggestions for things to be aware of when tagging/identifying trees for timbering, Im all ears!
 

When someone come to me and says they want to harvest there own trees to make a timber frame, I tell them to start with a stock list of the timbers needed.
From the stock list of timbers you create a log list. If you're doing the frame from Jack's book then there most likely is a stock list in that book. My book is packed away so I can't look it up.
To get a log list you look at the timber size. For example you'll need some 8x8x16' timbers. Measuring from one corner across the timber to the opposite corner diagonally you'll see that an 8x8 take a log at least 11 3/8" in diameter, or there about.
I usually round up and say, I'll need a 12" diameter log "or larger".
Normally I cut the largest timbers first.
Because if the log won't produce the largest timber then I can trim some off and make a smaller one. Or a shorter one.
I know you intend to cut your timbers with a chain saw mill, but if you can create a plank or two while milling your timbers you'll be gaining on your lumber needs every log.
Now that you need some 12" diameter logs (of course measured on the small end of the log) you can go to your lot and look for the best, straightest, trees with the least amount of branches in the first 16' of the tree for these timbers.
Continue down your log list and score off the ones you have tagged.
Plan on harvesting at least one spare of each size, just in case.

Good luck with your project.

Jim Rogers.
PS. please finish filling out your profile so we know where you are located.
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Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2021, 02:49:05 PM »
@Jim_Rogers:

Thank you so much for that reply!!

I really appreciate it because you so clearly laid out a good system of planning for the timber list (which is indeed in the book I am referencing) but translated to logs, which was where I had not had literature or experience to help me know how to plan for it!

It makes so much sense to start with the largest timbers first, so that in a not-best case scenario I can just use that for some of the smaller timbers, brilliant!

I did figure that with the pieces I mill off i could use them for cabinetry or whatnot but it also makes perfect sense to touch them up and turn them into planks too, or siding or whatnot.  I certainly intend to make as much use of the waste, aside from firewood, and even will be collecting the dust for the composting toilets and compost bins! 

Thanks again so much!
Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2021, 04:20:13 PM »
I'm far from an expert (jack of all trades, master of none...) but here is my list of lessons learned.

First, search the forum for other threads on timber frame building.  Here's mine if you have a day to kill...  Readers Digest version:

My goal was no plywood and use my timbers.  I have 10 acres and an assortment of wood - Ponderosa pine (referred to as pine below), Incense Cedar, White/Red Fir, Quaking Aspen and a little Oak.  While electricity could have been brought in (VERY expensive), I opted for off-grid.

I built a bandsaw mill (V2.0 in use now) and started milling fir timbers (heart centered) and saved all the fir side wood (1x for strapping, 2x for stairs, etc).  Turns out these fir (some quite large) were not suitable for timbers.  They nearly all twisted or warped - mostly twisted.  Salvaged about half of the floor joists.  The rest of the wood I'll try and cut down for small "cabins" - 8x12 or 10x12 - to be built in the future.

I bought and refurbished a sewer winch to use as a means to skid logs from the bottom of my property (250' elevation change) but decided buying logs is a bit easier ;)

I bought some 16" small end (SE) pine and made heart centered posts and beams along with 20-some 5x7x28' rafters.  Some of the posts and beams were usable, most of the rafters not.  Buy big!

Next I bought some big cedar for my deck.  Lots of metal in it but got the job done.  Not all loggers are trustworthy.

Final load of pine was really good stuff - 26"+ SE up to 36" LE.  From these I was able to mill 8x and 10x16 posts & beams FOH (free of heart) getting multiple pieces from one log.  The center was usually discarded.  All of this was cut (mortise and tenons, brace pockets, etc) right away and put up as quickly as possible to capture any movement.  Been trying to get more from this logger for the last 2 or 3 weeks.

Tools - I think you find out quickly how slow and exhausting the chainsaw mill will be.  You would be better off with a swingblade that you can take to the logs.

I bought a couple of the antique boring machines to drill out the mortises.  Works surprisingly well on the pine and cedar.  I have two 2" bits.  Just a slight difference in the lead screw that pulls it through the wood.  One works GREAT, the other so-so.  Gives nice straight holes that you cannot do with a hand held drill.  Not sure I'd want to drill in oak, however.  You could sell time at your fitness boot camp with one of these!  I have a couple 2", 1.5" and 1" slicks.  Can never have too many and can never be too sharp.  I invested in a 1.25" corner chisel (very old) and it is my go-to for doing brace pockets.  I have a collection of 20v DeWalt tools and using the drill to "cheat" is a real time saver on the brace pockets.

I have a few of solar setups going.  One for my camper trailer, one for the water well (no batteries) and a third for my bathhouse.  I have a tankless propane water heater that works pretty well once I got it dialed in and a 12vdc "RV" pump for the water.  I bought a 12v charger for my DeWalt tools and that thing is fantastic, couldn't live without it.  I do have a generator to power my Skil Sawsquach 16-5/16" (had a Makitia that I sold) for the beams and my little 7 Skil saw when cutting braces.  The generator is also used to run the compressor when nailing.

On your solar, get a MPPT controller.  Don't waste your money on a cheap PWM.  All my solar panels were either cheap off of CL, local auction site or free (one found roadside) from 130w up to 230w.

Sorry for the long answer!  Probably a few others that I missed.
John Sawicky

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SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2021, 12:49:24 PM »
@ljohnsaw 

I really do appreciate the response!  The more experiences/suggestions I get the better, no question about it!

Im pretty sure ive got a bunch of hard woods (oaks and maple) on my spot and really hope i dont find it all to be too difficult to work.  I figure the time it will take me to get my logs timbered will be significant so Im considering stripping them and stacking them till I am ready to timber and joint.   I have a gransfors burk draw knife made specifically for log building with a huge sweeping blade just for this purpose.  I figure ill put one of my random helpers (when available) on that job as I go felling!

I find it interesting, your account of how much of what you milled became unusable due to the twist and what not.  Do you think that there are any good ways to check for that prior to felling or even timbering to figure that out before its all said and done?  


As for buying logs, ive fully accepted that I very well may need to order some logs at some point... Im still hoping that i can source most of my own, but if I cant its not gona hurt my feelings!  The whole trustworthiness of loggers is a good thing to note, thanks for that!

Ive never heard of a swingblade before but ill start to look into those!

I love that you mentioned the boring machines because ive been trying to convince my wife, jk more trying to convince myself of the need based on how pricey they are, to let me invest in one of those for the joinery.  Do you think that a hand drill with a press attachment would not be feasible?  Pretty much every tennon is 1 1/2 inch so nothing huge but yeah... oak.  

I for sure will be getting a nice 1 1/2 inch chisel and was considering a slick as well.  I thought about the corner chisel but wasnt sure how needed it was as ive seen many people completing projects void of having one.

Im gona make note of your solar suggestions but at the moment I think im a bit preoccupied mentally with the forestry/logging/timbering/joining aspects to devote too much time into that at the moment.  That being said, thats a great idea to buy cheap panels off of CL and the likes.

As for water heating, what are your (or anyones) thoughts on using a rocket stove with a copper coil (that the water runs through) wrapped around it?  Id probably make it out of clay (the stove).  Anyone have experiences with that?

Thanks again so much!!
Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2021, 01:31:01 PM »
I'll work backwards through you questions.

I was really thinking of a rocket stove in my build but you have to tend them a lot (small wood) and I think that would get pretty old pretty fast.

Just keep an eye on CL.  I check it multiple times a day and it is amazing what is free or really cheap on there.  I have a LOT of ladders for this build along with a lot of scaffolding.  I have three 8' step, one 8' step/16' extension, four 6' step, two 7' step/14' extension and a couple 20' sections of 40' extension ladders.  All free.

Maybe this is just an exceptional corner chisel but it sure works great.  For the angle cuts of brace pockets, I can push cut with the V down the middle then cut with one flat side, then repeat.  On the straight mortises, catch the rounded corners with one edge of the corner chisel shaving off a little at a time then clean up with the V in the corner.  I rarely use a mallet.  You need long, fat handles on the chisels then you just push through.  You will want a 2" (or larger) slick to clean up your tenons.  The flat side is not flat - has a very slight convex curve to it so you can control the bite.  Again, long, fat handle.

There are a couple of thread on here about making boring machines.  One used some rods with bushing (or maybe linear guides?) and a big 1/2" drill on a wooden frame.  Another, more recent, was trying to repurpose an old radial arm saw's arm set vertically and a big drill.  You really need a powerful and slow drill to turn the big bits when you go deep.  The deepest mortises I've done are 8".  After 5 or 6", it gets to be a real workout, especially when its 95-100F!

Wasn't until after I cut a bunch that a logger said, "I wouldn't use that fir, too much movement".  And he was right.  I had a 6 or 7' high stack of 5x9s, 12' long.  Really heavy stuff.  The second from the bottom turned into a ship's keel it crooked so much.  Lifted the entire stack at least 10"!  I plunged cut it in two places with my chainsaw to set the stack back down.  I needed 19 of these 5x9 floor joists so I made 20 (should be enough extra...).  I was able to salvage 9. :-\

I milled EVERYTHING I could get my hands on at first.  I had a really bent log I made straight boards from.  Of course they crooked and cracked.  While I was sawing them up for firewood, they literally exploded with a loud bang when partially cut through.  Lots of tension!  If the logs have a bit of bend at the butt from growing on a side hill, don't waste your time on that wood.  Second log may be good, but only if straight.  What looks straight from a distance (20') looks a whole lot different when looking straight up!

With logs down at the bottom of the hill, it would be much easier to take the saw (swing blade or chainsaw mill) to the log and haul product up then to haul a log.  I'm using 33' pine in the 26"-30" range.  On the bigger, my 9,000 pound lift capacity is lifting one end with difficulty - on flat ground.  Forget about a slope!

Keep the questions coming and we will all try to help you avoid the mistakes we made! ;) :D
John Sawicky

Just North-East of Sacramento...

SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2021, 11:12:14 AM »
Hey ljohnsaw!

Sorry about the slow reply!

Good points on the rocket stove Ill have to consider my options for water heating when that time comes :D

Thanks for the suggestions on CL, makes good sense that I can find a whole bunch of stuff that could come in handy cheep!

I really think I am sold on a boring machine, i found a couple for a good price online that look quality (400 bucks or so) but also will check out this fourms tool sales area first to see if anything is there!
 
Ill try to add some pictures so you can see the type of trees/land I am working with.  Ill have some better detail once i head back out next weekend!  First pic is of the flatter of spots we have.  The other is just for fun, the view from above the cliff band.

 

 

 

Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 12:46:02 PM »
Hey all!

Just got to spend the weekend out at the spot!  

Did some mud rut fixing in preparation for the wet season in hopes to limit erosion on the way in.  We met with a gravel hauler who said his truck can carry 12tons.  It might be a bit tight but he can get back in there he thinks.  I figured sense we still have quite a bit of space to fill, it would be most economical to start with some number 2 stone (although ive heard it be called many things.).   I am thinking a 12 ton load and see where it goes, primary goal being to limit erosion this year.  

To save on how many loads we would need, due to the size of the ruts, my wife and I gathered and laid in some larger stone as a base in the ruts going smaller and smaller the closer we got to level.  We got a majority of each of the ruts filled in with this gathered stone, so hopefully that will let the 12 tons go a bit further than just maybe filling a single rut!  Ill add some pictures that might help make it understandable!


I am considering laying a pipe as a bit of drainage, there is a slight slope down one side the ruts.   Maybe that will help IDK.

Anyone aware of hauling prices out in AR, or just in general?  I wonder if the 12 ton load for 400 is a bit steep, bearing in mind that the drive in is a bit tough.


Off topic, but part of the process so I figured itd be fun to talk about and get some opinions on!

I was able to get some time in identifying a couple trees and consider what diameter/straightness and all of that looks like on a standing tree.  I am interested in finding a tree sooner than later near my campsite to leave me a nice stump, and that I can run my mill on for the first time!  I have one option, but hes got a bit of a bend in it, starts out pretty good at 16" but tapers a bit, wonder if I should skip on that and go for something as straight and all that as possible?  We think it is a Durand Oak  Ill attach a pic.  I do have plenty of sizable lobl olly (couldnt spell it without it being a lol) pine.  Is that good for timber framing?  Ive seen many replies to similar questions that say almost every tree is good and so on, but figured id ask!



 

 

 

 

 

 <b

 r>
 
Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline Don P

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 08:25:31 PM »
Around here that is around the friends and family price. A lot has to do with the distance to the quarry. 

If those puddles are holding water try to find a way of getting a permanent low drain and course rock out to the side or you'll probably be visiting that again.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2021, 01:08:53 PM »
We got some work done over the weekend!

After the last set of pics from the weekend before, we had the holes fairly level with collected bigol rock. 

We had our delivery come and it was super successful!!  A friend, my wife and myself got it distributed with a shovel and a couple of buckets haha!

We also touched up the camp site a bit!

Next goal, a small shed to work out of and house our tools/sidebyside/stay dry during super wet months!  Anyone think a 12'x12' post and beam (4"x4"s spaced every 4 feet max) with small mortis/tennons, 4 bents 3 bay and two 4x4 plates secured on top of the bents with L brackets would be a bad/good idea?   Looking for simplicity, speed and practice for the true timber frame.

 

 
Before
 



 After



Before
 

 
During
 

 
After
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Offline Stephen1

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2021, 07:34:49 PM »
Welcome the FF. 
Looking great on your start up site and driveway.
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Offline Don P

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2021, 08:47:27 PM »
I think 6x6's at 6' would probably be more useful practice but either way yes that would be a worthwhile project. I could see making it tall enough to shed off of all sides, amazing how much stuff you need to keep dry while building.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Iwawoodwork

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2021, 01:38:45 AM »
consider building your shed on skids/logs so that you can easily move it when you find that it was built in the wrong place. As this is a new site your current placement ideas may change several times.

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2021, 12:20:41 PM »
Thanks everyone for the replies!

@ Don
I totally understand what you mean regarding practice, more of a 1 to 1 type practice if i work with real timber rather than 4x4's, but for this particular project we are focused on being able to get this little structure up asap and for as affordable cost as possible.  Im not quite ready to start felling and milling up my own timbers quite yet, so figure buying some 4x4s would be the quickest/affordable option for the time being.   Do you think 8 foot to the crossbeam is too short?  I expect to have ample overlap on the roof including a side and front 4 to 8 foot overhang for firewood/outdoor workspace.  Please see my doodles ill attach for your consideration.

@Iwa
Ohh the idea of putting the shed on skids is very interesting.  I think thats a really good thought, but not sure if it would work all too well on my site.  We are very very hilly, the only flat spaces we have are limited to the very few natural small flats we have, and what we build, so Id imagine skidding a small structure around on hilly/uneven ground would be difficult.  Additionally, we will be limited in heavy lifting, I mean we have a few 4x4 vehicles with tow lines and a wench or two but dont currently have plans to invest in hydraulics at the moment.  Still a good thought to consider and Ill do just that!!

The pictures:

Heres my overall doodle, its 20 to 1' scale (architects).  One of our adventure pals works on telephone poles for a living and has the expanding foam they use on those.  We were considering using that for our posts, any concerns/thoughts about that?

How about braces?  Should I include at least 2 braces per wall?

Again the goal is to still be small, fit a side by side and a little extra space for tools and whatnot.  Overhangs are not detailed.  I imagine a 2" deep mortis and tenon, reduced at each of the ends of the crossbeams.  See cut diagrams below:


 


Here are the couple of cut diagrams I made, could be royally incorrect so please go easy on me!  Didnt detail the cuts for the mortis cuts in the cross beams yet.


 


This is page one of my cut sheet so I can keep track of my pieces and progress.  Our crew will have a cut party to speed this process up.  We expect to use a table saw to cut the shoulders of the tenons and a rip hand saw (unless anyone has better suggestions) for the cheeks.  I do have a 1 1/2" framing chisel on its way so I could use that for the cheeks if anyone thinks its a better idea.  Open to alternatives as well.

 


Thanks again for everybody's input, I really appreciate it!!
Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline Don P

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2021, 06:34:42 PM »
You're adding another bent and set of holes, I'm not sure which is more cost effective.

Do you have access to full 4"x4" treated? A typical building store treated 4x4 is 3-1/2"x 3-1/2".

I've not seen the foam so can't comment. 

You can pick up bracing with the wall sheathing, either osb/plywood or diagonal boards, something that forms structural triangles in or on the frame. The dimensions of the timbers don't really allow for adequate peg room so there again the skin of the building is what is holding the joinery together, which is fine.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2021, 12:09:59 PM »
Hey Don!

When you mention I am adding another bent and set of holes, are you referring to choosing 4x4 instead of 6x6's?  if so, thats a good point that I didnt consider.  I think the other part that I was considering in this decision is regarding the ability for me to make all of the cuts off site (6 hours away), ease of transport from my friends house to my place (or the other way around), and getting the pre-cut parts out there (on a trailer).  But now that I think about it, Its kinda the same deal either way right?   

In that case, Ill need to consider the availability of 6x6's in my area (dallas).  


As for the access to true 4x4, no.  I was thinking just the typical lumber from the average lumber yard or building store.  Any suggestions or concerns with that?  I do understand that sense the real size would be 3-1/2" id probably need to update my cut diagrams and dimensions of the cuts to match the real size.

As for wall sheathing, i had priced this out with a layer of 3/4" ply (walls and roof) and a layer of corrugated sheet metal over that (the metal i understand will offer little structural stability, at least I think).  

 Sense I was thinking going with the smaller lumber, I did consider that I wouldnt have space for pegs, so thought I might send a screw or 2 through each of the tenons in addition to the sheathing.  

Thank you so much for the information!!
Let the Sufferfest ensue.

Offline Don P

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2021, 06:36:21 PM »
Either size timbers works. Yes a pin of some sort in the tenon would probably be more appropriate. Bear in mind in any joint configurations the pin isn't going to provide much more than holding the mortise and tenon together, compression only.

Metal ag panels are structural when used within the specs from the manufacturer. Screw and purlin spacing, etc. That is often how post frame buildings are picking up their bracing. As they get larger you'll see "braced bays" where there will be an X of turnbuckled rods or strapping. So that is another way.

Sheathing ply and osb have a span rating for floor and roof support spacing stamped on them. I wouldn't exceed the roof spacing for a wall. If you go with store bought 4x4's and 1/2" ply or 7/16" osb for the wall sheathing then stock windows and doors pop in easier, 2x4's make easy studs or girts.

A panel of metal or ply well attached to a frame does a great job of bracing the assembly. The problem is a thin panel wants to pop out of plane when the racking force is applied. The span ratings and specs for different engineered panels is in part based on how often the thin panel needs a "strut" to stiffen it and stop that buckling failure path.
The future is a foreign country, they will do things differently there - Simon Winchester

Offline Malfestus

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Re: New to Forums: A Project is in the Making
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2021, 08:07:33 PM »
Thanks a ton for all of that info Don!  You are a wealth of information and I really appreciate it!

Ill have to do some considering and then get to committing to a gameplan!
Let the Sufferfest ensue.


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